Jump to content

'02 Running Rough At Idle, Smoke, And No Power In Low End. . .


N8sVFR

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 59
  • Created
  • Last Reply

I haven't tested the injectors yet. Was hoping for a simple electrical fix. Guess it's back out to OHM out the injectors and to test voltage on the wiring. If all the injectors OHM out, seems like bench testing them is a bit more challenging. Haven't found anything online that indicates an easy way to test them for spray pattern just yet. . . .

As for the FPR, any way to test that??? Or is this just one of those things that's a 'replace and hope for the best?'

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All injectors pass OHM test, and are within range. All positive legs of connectors have similar voltage with key in the 'on' position.

Pulled the vacuum hose on the FPR, and there's no fuel in there.

However, I am thinking that it must be the FPR. When I look down through the butterfly valves into where the valve seats are, I can see pools of fuel on the top of each of the cylinders. Since it's highly unlikely that there would be a problem with ALL of the injectors, I am thinking that it MUST be the FPR. Too much pressure = too much fuel in the cylinders, drowning the engine, and forcing unspent fuel past the piston rings and into the bottom end of the motor.

So, I think I'm going to order a new FPR and go from there.

Anyone think that there's a need for me to remove the throttle body for anything? If I was going to do it, now would be the time . . .

Still can't diagnose why my neutral switch isn't working.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Anyone think that there's a need for me to remove the throttle body for anything? If I was going to do it, now would be the time . . .

If you wanted to refresh the vacuum and coolant hoses and clean the throttle body as a proactive measure.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's a thought Knight.

Anyone think that all the fuel in my oil could have interfered with the neutral switch? I'm getting continuity in the wiring all the way from the neutral switch connector to the associated pin on the connector at the back of the instrument panel. . . .so not sure why the light isn't coming on. I get resistance from the switch and OL when in gear. . . .but the resistance is exceedingly low. . . .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer

Maybe you've checked this before, but have you looked at the ground bus to see that there's no corrosion/burning going on? That would tie in with the neutral light fault perhaps. The 6th gen has a blue bus connector I believe (I'm a 5th gen owner).

Regarding the FPR, the right way to test this is to attach a pressure gauge and check the output. They can fail with a tear through the vacuum diaphragm and that would allow raw fuel to pass through the tear and down the vacuum line, hence looking to see if there was liquid in there. I swapped my FPR out because I had high fuel consumption, but it wasn't that (more likely a problem with my right wrist).

A leaky or stuck injector will also let fuel drip through when the engine is shut off. I discovered during a FPR swap that just because the fuel pump is off, doesn't mean fuel won't gravity feed through to the rail and then through an open injector. That would explain why your crankcase has filled up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've had the wiring harness recall done. Even so, I checked all the connectors, including the infamous blue connector. All my grounds look good, as far as I can tell.

Well, I don't have a pressure gauge, so I'll just replace it. It's less than $50, so worth it anyway, since these appear to have problems occasionally. And since the bike starts, and runs fairly reasonably initially, I don't think that this is an issue where fuel is leaking down into the bottom end with the motor off. Wish that I had checked the oil before running, but will be doing that next time. . . .

How the hell do I test to see if I have an injector stuck open????

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Six and a half months later and you haven't had the injectors flow tested and cleaned yet?

This is the company I used:

https://precisionautoinjectors.com/

"Our Service Process

  • Injector Coil is Tested
  • Injector exterior is cleaned
  • Dynamic Ultrasonic cleaning breaks up deposits
  • Reverse flush removes remaining debris and deposit
  • High pressure leak test is performed
  • Spray pattern and flow tests are performed
  • Injectors are Flow matched and assembled with all new components (o-rings and all new filters included)
  • Injectors are hermetically sealed and packaged for immediate shipping"

It was $12 per injector. They flow tested the injectors, totally disassembled them, ultrasonic cleaned them, replaced the injector filter/screens and seals.

They gave them back to me with less than one percent variance. Get to it already man. Even if it turns out that no injectors are stuck open, this is maintenance that everyone should do every five years or so along with a fuel filter change. I am sure your filter is dirty by now and I am sure your injectors are probably over 2% variance by now as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer

^^^ +1

That is so often overlooked. There's no way for the ECU to know if the injectors are dirty. I noted significant improvement in my 6th gen after sending the injectors our for service.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer

How the hell do I test to see if I have an injector stuck open????

Swap injectors and note if the problem follows to the new cylinder...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey BLS -- I've decided to just bite the bullet. Thanks to CandyRedRC46 up there, I have removed all of the injectors and will be sending them out for servicing to the place he recommended this week. No need to keep chasing this issue -- would rather be sure that all my injectors are good. I'm also replacing the fuel pressure regulator, and ordered a new neutral sensor and will see if that ends up needing replacing after I get the issues worked out with the bike actually running and not POURING gasoline into my oil.

Also ordered three new filters and three gallons of oil -- will be changing the oil before I even attempt another start after the serviced injectors and new FPR are installed. I'll give you guys an update later in the week if all the parts arrive and I get around to installing everything before our Easter vacation at the beach. Will probably need another oil and filter change after running her a bit again, just to ensure that I have all (or the vast majority) of the gasoline out of the bottom end of the motor.

As everyone can probably tell, I haven't been riding all that much lately (for like 4 years), so this has been really a back burner project. Now that I'm up to my elbows in it, I remember how much I actually enjoy working on the bike. . . .as long as I can find a solution in a reasonable amount of time and get her running properly again. Otherwise, it just turns into frustration!!!!

Thanks for all the help, guys.

-Nate

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey guys -- was out of town for Easter weekend.

Got an interesting update though. Sent off the injectors to Precision Auto Injectors in FL. They did a great job -- I mailed the injectors to them last Tuesday and they were waiting for me when I got home yesterday. 4 day turn around, INCLUDING shipping!!

So to the news. . . .the injector that was in the #1 cylinder failed the leak down test both before and after cleaning, even after an overnight cleaning. All others tested good. Apparently, Honda does a pretty good job with their injectors according to Precision Auto Injectors:

"Over 25 seconds they flowed

Pre-cleaning

#1 110cc

#2 113cc

#3 108cc

#4 110cc

Post cleaning

#1 113cc

#2 113cc

#3 113cc

#4 113cc

For flow rate purposes that would be 270cc/minute @ 43.5 psi

One of the tightest spreads I've seen on a factory sets. Rarely do sets flow exactly dead on amongst each other."

So, I'll order a new fuel injector from Ron Ayers tonight and hope that it arrives quickly. . . .while I'm waiting, I'll go ahead and install the new FPR that I ordered, change out all the 'gassy' oil, and hope for the best when I install all the refurbished as well as the new injector.


And here are the photos that PAI sent me of the spray pattern and flow rates, post cleaning:

20160324 154712

20160324 154656

Note that the markings on the volume test are not even all the way across. . . .the two center cylinders have lower markings, but EXACTLY the same volume. Just wish that the #1 injector had stopped leaking after cleaning.

Oh well. :)


Just in case anyone is going to remove and send off their injectors, I'd highly recommend PAI. They did a great job, and were VERY fast. Their prices have apparently increased over the years -- they now charge $20 per injector. But if an injector fails testing post-cleaning, the charge is waived!! So, I ended up paying $60 to have them all serviced, and to get the diagnosis of the leak on the #1 injector. No return shipping either!! Pretty great service.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good to see you finally got it figured out. So now to get one new oem injector or pick up another set, have them cleaned and tested and pick the one closest to 113?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

CandyRedRC46: Already ordered a new injector from Ron Ayers last night. Figure best to start off with one that's known to be good. Even if the new one flows a bit more or less than the other three, shouldn't be that noticeable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that I've also determined that the trouble with starting was that the cylinder(s) were actually full or nearly full of gasoline, and it was as if the motor was vapor locked. The starter couldn't compress the liquid gasoline, and therefore couldn't turn over the motor. That's why after letting it sit for a week or so and all the fuel had leaked down past the rings, she would start fairly easily. Anyway, have to wait another week to get the new injector, and will then install everything and see how she does. . . .fingers crossed!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, Ron Ayers let me know yesterday that the injector was back ordered through them until at least April 20th. I cancelled that order and placed a new one with Partzilla. It's supposed to ship on Monday. . . .we'll see. Seems like it always takes forever to get the last little thing that you need to wrap up a project, doesn't it??!?!?!?!?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

New injector finally shipped from Partzilla. Should have it by Friday. Will see if I can get all this back together sometime over the weekend and update you all again. . . .keep your fingers crossed!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer

You, sir, are one stubborn son of a gun. I would have given up and sold the bike. Good on you for sticking with it.

Will be waiting for a message about a happy ending. I love happy endings...

C

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was having somewhat similar symptoms on an 02, thought it was also an injector issue. I replaced all four and same problem, I finally ran the codes and got a 13(#2 injector short) & 19 (ignition pulse sensor). I plan to check out the wire to both the injector and pulse sensor before taking it apart.

Stick with it! :fing02:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy.