'02 Running Rough At Idle, Smoke, And No Power In Low End. . .

[N8sVFR]

Hi guys -- been away from the forums for while, but I'm having a pretty significant issue with the VFR, and need to reach out to see if anyone has had similar issues and what suggestions are out there for trouble shooting / solving this problem.

Here's the run down:

1. Moved the bike to the new house about 2 months ago. I noticed that she was running a little weird -- no low end power, and it took higher revs to start from a dead stop. Other than that, everything seemed fairly normal.

2. Today, went out to go for a ride, started her up, and got some white-ish smoke. The bike idled up, and then smoothed out and the smoke seemed to go away. However, on revving the engine in neutral, some white smoke was still produced.

3. Proceeded on my ride (short -- maybe 10 miles) and noticed the low end getting progressively weaker, to the point where I had to rev significantly to start from a dead stop. Felt like I was trying to take off in third gear. Lots of smoke being produced. Rough feeling throughout the RPM range.

4. Coming around a corner towards home, downshifted, and the bike completely died. Stopped, and she restarted, but only after I ran the starter and gave it about 20% throttle at the same time. Again, lots of white-ish smoke on start up.

So, any suggestions? My thoughts are that it could be some bad gas, but more likely a bad spark plug or something having to do with the fuel injection system. I plan do to the following:

1. Change Oil and filter

2. Change air filter

3. Check for head gasket leaks

4. Check and replace spark plugs

Any other suggestions if these things don't happen to rectify the problem? Any help would be appreciated!!

Thanks,

Nate

[Cogswell]

White smoke is often a symptom of coolant entering the combustion process. A compression test would be helpful - it can confirm you have a problem but not exactly what it is. The best test would be a leakdown test. Once a cylinder is pressurized, air would normally only have one of 3 ways out - past the rings, exhaust valve(s) or intake valve(s). Listening to any of the 3 tracts would confirm it getting out that way. The 4th way though would be a blown head gasket. In that case, air bubbles will appear in the coolant. If your coolant is low or you've had to keep adding it would be another sign that it's leaking past the head gasket. The loss of compression would also be consistent with the lack of power you're experiencing. You could also have the oil analyzed to find out if coolant is present. That can boil off after a prolonged ride though, so that may not be conclusive.

Best of luck with it.

[Polarbear]

While I'm sure Cogswell is right and his post is more relevant than mine, I can't help but think that I would check the obvious for 6th gens: gas in the tank (maybe something weird in it?), and then the main fuses and the state of the battery. Most likely not the problem but it does not take long to do all that anyways. Then I would tackle the most likely causes, which will require more work.

Good luck and keep us updated!

C

[Cogswell]

That's a really good point about water in the gas, it can easily happen if it's been sitting for a long period. I agree - check the easy things first then move on to the rest!

[N8sVFR]

I suppose it could be the fuel, but I'd be surprised. It really feels and sounds like it's only running on 3 cylinders . . . .I'll continue to run some fuel through it. I filled it up with fresh fuel this afternoon first thing on my ride, so hopefully that will help.

[Cogswell]

If you do have a lot of water in the tank adding new fuel will generally not help much. The fuel floats on the water and the intake's at the bottom of the tank. There are additives such as Heet and others that are supposed to suspend the water in the fuel and help it burn - but if you really have a lot of water the best remedy will be to remove it. Once mostly empty the tank could be flipped over and drained, or propping the tank up will allow all the fuel/water to be siphoned out. Probably not a good idea, but once I used a microfiber towel and a long wooden dowel to work the cloth to the bottom of the tank to soak up the remainder to get it bone dry. The fuel pump could also be removed, but that's a lot of work. Once you have a known clean tank, trying fresh fuel should eliminate that as a possibility.

[BusyLittleShop]

Leaky Head Gasket Check...

You can visual inspect for a leaking head gasket by pulling the spark
plugs and peering down each hole... if the top of the piston is black
then no leak that cylinder... if the top of the piston is a bright
shiny aluminum then leak detected... because a leaky head gasket
allows coolant in and that produces steam under the heat of
combustion... the net effect is a super clean piston dome and no nasty
black...

[N8sVFR]

Thanks BLS -- I was going to pull the spark plugs and check / replace them anyway, so I'll be sure to have a look while I'm at it. Will probably start digging into this little project on Sunday.

By the way -- it's been FOREVER since I bought any replacement parts for the Honda on-line. Any suggestions for reputable, cheap, and fast vendors?

Thanks,

Nate

[Switchblade]

Thanks BLS -- I was going to pull the spark plugs and check / replace them anyway, so I'll be sure to have a look while I'm at it. Will probably start digging into this little project on Sunday.

By the way -- it's been FOREVER since I bought any replacement parts for the Honda on-line. Any suggestions for reputable, cheap, and fast vendors?

Thanks,

Nate

Partszilla.com

[Cogswell]

The cheapest I have found OEM parts was at ProCaliber motorsports in Longview WA. Shipping is free on orders over $99 as well.

[BusyLittleShop]

Thanks BLS -- I was going to pull the spark plugs and check / replace them anyway, so I'll be sure to have a look while I'm at it. Will probably start digging into this little project on Sunday.

By the way -- it's been FOREVER since I bought any replacement parts for the Honda on-line. Any suggestions for reputable, cheap, and fast vendors?

Thanks,

Nate

You're welcome... I've had good experiences with Ron Ayers but they don't ship over seas...

http://www.ronayers.com/

[N8sVFR]

Update: Need some help here guys.

So, replaced all 4 spark plugs, air filter, engine oil, and topped off the coolant.

Here's what happened: I start up the bike, and after a bit of cranking, she roughly starts . . . good sign, I think to myself.

Then, I see fluid coming out of the exhaust. I think, must just be water vapor. . . .I put my hand to it and. . . .no!!!!!!! IT'S RAW GASOLINE COMING OUT THE EXHAUST!!

So, here are my thoughts. I must have lost a coil (or more than one. . . .not sure if there are two or four), and therefore, I'm not getting spark in at least one of the cylinders.

I don't have a service manual. . . .so here's where I need the help. Do we have a link to one on here? Or can someone simply point me in the right direction? Obviously, this has to be a spark problem, because I'm getting fuel (as evidenced by the raw gasoline being spit from my exhaust) and air through my fresh air filter.

Thanks for the help. . . .hope I can get this resolved in short order.

-Nate

[Cogswell]

Update: Need some help here guys.

So, replaced all 4 spark plugs, air filter, engine oil, and topped off the coolant.

Here's what happened: I start up the bike, and after a bit of cranking, she roughly starts . . . good sign, I think to myself.

Then, I see fluid coming out of the exhaust. I think, must just be water vapor. . . .I put my hand to it and. . . .no!!!!!!! IT'S RAW GASOLINE COMING OUT THE EXHAUST!!

So, here are my thoughts. I must have lost a coil (or more than one. . . .not sure if there are two or four), and therefore, I'm not getting spark in at least one of the cylinders.

I don't have a service manual. . . .so here's where I need the help. Do we have a link to one on here? Or can someone simply point me in the right direction? Obviously, this has to be a spark problem, because I'm getting fuel (as evidenced by the raw gasoline being spit from my exhaust) and air through my fresh air filter.

Thanks for the help. . . .hope I can get this resolved in short order.

-Nate

Here's the manual.

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php/files/file/220-02-09-honda-vfr-service-manual-optimized-bookmarked/

If you have just one cylinder not firing, the plugs should tell the story. It could be as simple as the wiring not fully connected to a coil pack. Best of luck with it.

[Auspanyol]

The coils are on each plug on the 6th gen... I have 3 spares at 15€ each plus postage (from Spain)

[N8sVFR]

Ok. Got some troubleshooting done today. I got the bike running again, and after shutting it off and preparing to start pulling the coils to test for spark, I inadvertently came close to touching one of the header pipes. . . .it was HOT. And then it dawned on me. . . . if the header is hot, then obviously, that cylinder is firing!!!! So, in about 10 seconds, I determined that cylinder 1 header was hot, 2 was hot, 3 was STONE COLD and 4 was hot!! So, pretty quickly isolated the problem to the #3 cylinder and the coil!! Unfortunately, in the process, I managed to cook my old 'already-in-doubt' LiFe4 battery from MOTY Designs. I've had that battery for about three or four years, and it gave me trouble when trying to use it this last time. I let one of the cells drop below 4 volts, and then used a trickle charger to enough voltage in it to then charge it properly. I'm not certain, but prior to having the issues with the battery, the bike ran fine. . . .so, I'm actually wondering if simply replacing the battery will fix my direct coil problem, or if the coil just happened to go bad at the same time coincidentally. I've ordered the new battery this afternoon, and will probably go ahead and order a new direct ignition coil, just to be safe.

Anyway, turns out that diagnosing the source of the issue was a lot simpler and more 'common sense' than I had figured on. Hope that replacing the battery (and possibly the coil) does the trick!!

[huntinggunns]

You can check each coil pack individually with a know good plug. 9 times out of 10 when you have raw fuel coming out of the exhaust the fuel pressure regulator is the culprit. You will foul all the plugs but number 3 might have just been the first to go. The bike will run like crap if the fpr is leaking by. Personally, I would test all the coils for fire first. If they are all working, install a new set of plugs, but let the cylinders air out for a while after the old plugs have been removed. Pull the vacuum line for the fpr and if the inside of the line is wet, you have found the culprit. You will also smell a strong odor of fuel in the crank case too if the fpr is shot.

[N8sVFR]

Well,test running was with all new spark plugs. . . .I didn't have a chance to test all four of the coils, just the front two cylinders, and they were both good. Now that the battery is toast, I'll have to wait until the new battery gets here to test some more, but I went ahead and ordered a new coil anyway. Hope that it doesn't need a fuel pressure regulator, but time will tell. Just as a side note, all four of the old plugs looked fairly similar, and that was with the bike running like crap. . . .

And, I'm also installing Tightwad's 'Vfr-ness' to ensure that the charging system is up to snuff. My main 30A fuse was a bit melted, so I wanted to go ahead and ensure that I wouldn't have a fire under the seat in the near future. I suppose this is the nature of things with a 13 year old motorcycle. :)

[N8sVFR]

Ugh. No joy. After all the work indicated above, the bike had severe trouble starting. The starter relay is working (clicking) and is brand new anyway. I noticed that now the neutral light doesn't come on either, even though the bike is in neutral. Hold in the clutch, and press the starter, and hardly anything happens. After trying a few times, she will finally crank (sometimes), and eventually starts. Not sure what this is all about now. Seems electrical since I've now lost the neutral light (tested the switch, and it's inconclusive as to weather the switch is bad or not). I'm getting frustrated with trouble shooting. . . .not sure what would have happened to make this all go wrong. . . .almost seems like the motor is vapor locked. . . .like the starter can't turn it over. Would a bad FPR make this happen too?? Looking for any potential help here guys. :(

[JNBarrett]

This royally sucks. :(

First thing to do is go back and check all your connections from your battery, to your R/R, and stator. Check the main fuse connector a well as they get crispy.

Now, back to your #3 cylinder. Did you replace the coil?

[N8sVFR]

Tell me about it.

Connections have been checked, and will be re-checked. I am also going to put direct battery voltage to the starter motor to check operation. If it DOES work, then I may have an issue with a switch or relay elsewhere. . .

Yes. Coil on #3 cylinder was replaced. But still blowing raw fuel out the exhaust when I get it to run. It DOES appear that all cylinders were firing though (all headers were hot).

I just cant figure what caused this cascade of events. . . loosing the neutral light is really throwing me for a loop. Not sure why that would happen unless the issue were electrical in nature . . . .damn gremlins.

[JNBarrett]

You may have a stuck / bad injector.

Pull the #3 injector out and test it on the bench (just Google on how to test / clean an injector - lots of vids and easy to do).

Before you do this though, test the #3 cylinder for spark.

[JNBarrett]

More I think about it ... the more I'm convincing myself your injector is stuck open.

Either a short to ground on the control wire or a shorted PCM driver for the injector. The white smoke, fuel blowing out the pipe, and no signs of coolant in the cylinder are tell tale signs.

A short would make sense given the other electrical issues that have suddenly cropped up.

[N8sVFR]

Ok. . . .so how do I diagnose a shorted PCM, and how to I rectify it?? And do I still need to pull the injector and test it?? Probably a good idea, I suppose . . .

[JNBarrett]

Follow each wire back and make sure none are melted, exposed, or showing signs of extreme heat first.

Then test the grounds and control leads to each of the injectors with a digital multi-meter. (Google how to test these and it turns up videos - most are for cars / trucks but will apply to a bike as well).

Then test the injector outside the bike after since this takes more work.

[N8sVFR]

UPDATE: so finally got around to starting to go through the electrical system. Checked every connector that I could find / reach. Disconnected, cleaned, and reconnected all ground points to the frame. Didn't find anything out of the ordinary. Took apart the air cleaner down to the fuel rails just to see if there was any damage to the wiring harness feeding the injectors. All looked good. Reconnected everything, installed the tank and battery, and turner her on. Started fairly easily, although, my neutral switch light still doesn't appear to be working. Then after about 30 seconds, the white smoke starts appearing, and she ends up stalling out. Right before she stalled, I noticed a lot of swirling in the oil level window. Held a light to it and it looked suspicious.

After the bike stalled out, I unscrewed the oil filler, and I HAVE GASOLINE IN MY OIL. I'm not talking about a little gas. . . .I'm talking about TONS of gasoline in the oil.

Any suggestions?? I'm thinking that I must have a bad / stuck injector, AND bad rings or scored piston walls to allow that much fuel into the oil.

What the hell is going on here?? Need some help guys.

:(

Thanks,

Nate