BiKenG Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 I have to finally take issue with how this is done on this site/forum. I think the major headings need changing and there needs to be more of them. There is no justification for lumping 'Production Race Bikes' in with 'V4 Adventure'. These should really be each in their own separate major groups. Then there's the catchall 'VFR Models'. Well apart from the fact that both the CrossRunner and CrossTourer are VFR models and arguably should be included in this group, trying to split up all the VFR 'road' models by 'generation' is nonsense. I understand that the VFR750 and VFR800 can be designated by such criteria, but you simply CANNOT include the VFR1200 in this as it is NOT simply a different generation of the same bike and since both the 800 and 1200 are available at the same time, it illustrates just how faulty is this logic. The VFR1200F is NOT simply a 7th Gen VFR. Never was and never will be. It is an ENTIRELY different model and should NOT be described as such. The new VFR800 should be the 7th Gen and not the 8th generation. I do not say this out of any favouritism of one model over others, just plain facts and logic. Can I ask that the site moderators/admins accept that the current groupings are inappropriate and do something about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Dutchy Posted July 25, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted July 25, 2015 And you are???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer The mailman Posted July 25, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted July 25, 2015 The VFR1200F is NOT simply a 7th Gen VFR. Never was and never will be. It is an ENTIRELY different model and should NOT be described as such. Here in the USA, (and where this site is based) when the 6th gen ceased to exist as a current model year motorcycle, the 1200 took over. That makes it the 7th incarnation of the VFR. While I think that Honda lost its way in calling the 1200 a VFR, it DID say VFR on the side and no other option was available. I was excited to see the 8th gen get back on track in the pursuit of what a VFR, in my mind, should be. Hey mods - I love snow cones and being a rider who would love a good cold snow cone after a hot ride, I feel there should be a snow cone forum to map and rate the best snow cone shacks. .......feeling a bit sparky this morning. <--- This mug should be replaced by a snow cone icon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Mohawk Posted July 25, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted July 25, 2015 Good luck with that Ken, me & a few others had that arguement when the 12 was launched, but as is the way of the world a vote was held & stupidity prevailed as is often the case with the lowest common denominator :( The 12 is a VFR (Vee Four Road) even if it stood for Racing originally its not anymore. But the 12 was never part of the 750/800 progression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer YoshiHNS Posted July 25, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted July 25, 2015 What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baileyrock Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 One other small fact is that the forms creator rides a VFR1200. He created VFRD because when he asked about about something on another form and got the response "Well if you think you can do it better...." and he has! Your opinions are welcome, but this isn't Wikipedia! BR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer CornerCarver Posted July 25, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted July 25, 2015 I have to finally take issue with how this is done on this site/forum. I think the major headings need changing and there needs to be more of them. There is no justification for lumping 'Production Race Bikes' in with 'V4 Adventure'. These should really be each in their own separate major groups. Then there's the catchall 'VFR Models'. Well apart from the fact that both the CrossRunner and CrossTourer are VFR models and arguably should be included in this group, trying to split up all the VFR 'road' models by 'generation' is nonsense. I understand that the VFR750 and VFR800 can be designated by such criteria, but you simply CANNOT include the VFR1200 in this as it is NOT simply a different generation of the same bike and since both the 800 and 1200 are available at the same time, it illustrates just how faulty is this logic. The VFR1200F is NOT simply a 7th Gen VFR. Never was and never will be. It is an ENTIRELY different model and should NOT be described as such. The new VFR800 should be the 7th Gen and not the 8th generation. I do not say this out of any favouritism of one model over others, just plain facts and logic. Can I ask that the site moderators/admins accept that the current groupings are inappropriate and do something about it. I'll have a beer and belly up to the bar to advance this discussion. Do you assign a different generation nomenclature to the VF1000F and VF500F or are those two models part of the "1st Gen" model grouping? Those bikes had more commonality than the the VF1000R did with other "1st Gen" bikes so where does that game changing model fit in with the generational designation? Moving on to the first thought of yours that I bolded, to my knowledge neither the CrossRunner nor CrossTourer are available here in the US. That brings to a more fine point the fact that while this is a US based forum with very active subgroups within many countries, it is still a US based forum and as such we have designated models as they become available here in North America. To you next bolded point, the VFR800 had been dead for two years when the VFR1200 was introduced here in North America. We realize that many countries were still getting the 2002 VFR (with updated ECM and clear signal indicator lenses) in most of the rest of the world through 2010 when it died an ignominious death as the VFR1200 was brought to market (without a real marketing strategy in my mind). Still here in North America you can purchase new 2012/2013 VFR1200 models as well as new 2014/2015 VFR800 models so while I don't quite grasp this line of reasoning from you to make your point it is never the less inaccurate. Regarding the last bolded points it would stand to reason that it should be "an entirely different model" to get another model generation designation. Was the VF1000R an entirely different model from the VF500F? I know what I think you are trying to say here but both RC36 models have a quite a bit in common, should they both be 3rd Gen (or are you proposing that we call them some other variant)? Likewise the last gear driven cam model and the Vtec bikes are also RC46 designated by Honda but we clearly recognize differences there. I get what you "finally have to take issue with" but our discussion in 2010 as the 7th Gen was being released was heated and that discussion was "Is the VFR1200F a VFR?!?" and once we calmed down long enough to realize that it was kind of silly to argue about such things when so much else was going on in the world we agreed that Honda declared it a VFR even though it was nothing like any VFR previous (dirt bike valve actuation and shaft-driven?) and should have been the ST1300 replacement we needed to assign it a colloquial "Generational" designation. Basically the Generational nomenclature does not only apply to middleweight sport touring VF's and VFRs. I think we might be able to agree on some of your other forum grouping reclassifications if they don't alter the architecture of the forum in a way that requires our moderators to stop riding their VFR's long enough to enact such changes. Would you care to create a flow chart of your thoughts on more appropriate model designations for the bikes that are available in Europe and not North America? I would champion your cause to get those changes implemented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer CornerCarver Posted July 25, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted July 25, 2015 Good luck with that Ken, me & a few others had that arguement when the 12 was launched, but as is the way of the world a vote was held & stupidity prevailed as is often the case with the lowest common denominator :( The 12 is a VFR (Vee Four Road) even if it stood for Racing originally its not anymore. But the 12 was never part of the 750/800 progression. But where do you place the VF1000F and the VF500F in this argument? And then what about the VF1000R? The generational designation is not only for the middleweight sport bike that begat the GDC Daytona 200 winning VFR750 that begat the sport touring models of 750 and 782cc engine capacity. I think stupidity could have prevailed in your favor had your argument been more fully formed regarding the VFR1200F back in the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veefer800Canuck Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 Geez, it's not even winter yet........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted July 25, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted July 25, 2015 Geez, it's not even winter yet........... I did go look at OP to see if it was Australia though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmythecop Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 I like rainbows and flowers and puppies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer The mailman Posted July 25, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted July 25, 2015 I like rainbows and flowers and puppies. You can't have those three together. The flowers and rainbows are colorful, the puppy cannot/will not be included in your group. Put the puppy in the LEO vehicle group as they are most likely black or white. You will also find puppies inside Leo vehicles as well. Follow me now.... Next patient please... These are classic symptoms of Industrial Disease. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer MaxSwell Posted July 26, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted July 26, 2015 Hijack: Hey T mailman, are you ever going to show up in Montrose for SumSum? I'd love to meet and ride with you. following: and on Sunday, striptease. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Ultimatevfr Posted July 26, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted July 26, 2015 And you are???? Lol ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer The mailman Posted July 26, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted July 26, 2015 Hijack: Hey T mailman, are you ever going to show up in Montrose for SumSum? I'd love to meet and ride with you. following: and on Sunday, striptease. MaxSwell, I still can't believe that I've been travelling with/for family EVERY SINGLE YEAR while SumSum has happened right here in my back yard. I'll be coming back home from a trip this year on the 18th. (Wedding in Olympia, WA to attend) I >>>may<<< be able to catch up to you guys for a day this year but my youngest daughter is interviewing for a job this Monday in Ft. Myers, FL and if she gets it, I'll be helping her move during the rest of SUmSum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer adeyren Posted July 26, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted July 26, 2015 NC 30? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer JZH Posted July 26, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted July 26, 2015 Is that the question, or the answer? The whole "gen" thing is hopelessly silly, makes no logical sense whatsoever and is not something Honda recognises or respects. But, it's not changing! (It will likely be changed about the same time the UK ceases driving on the left...) Ciao, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer MaxSwell Posted July 26, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted July 26, 2015 Hijack: Hey T mailman, are you ever going to show up in Montrose for SumSum? I'd love to meet and ride with you. following: and on Sunday, striptease. MaxSwell, I still can't believe that I've been travelling with/for family EVERY SINGLE YEAR while SumSum has happened right here in my back yard. I'll be coming back home from a trip this year on the 18th. (Wedding in Olympia, WA to attend) I >>>may<<< be able to catch up to you guys for a day this year but my youngest daughter is interviewing for a job this Monday in Ft. Myers, FL and if she gets it, I'll be helping her move during the rest of SUmSum. I see. Family First. Well, perhaps in the future. Or I may just show up on your door step some day. (I'd warn you so you could head for the hills, if you're fast.) Retirement is great. And you might get luck this year. Even a day would be great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiKenG Posted July 29, 2015 Author Share Posted July 29, 2015 ... Do you assign a different generation nomenclature to the VF1000F and VF500F or are those two models part of the "1st Gen" model grouping? Those bikes had more commonality than the the VF1000R did with other "1st Gen" bikes so where does that game changing model fit in with the generational designation? Moving on to the first thought of yours that I bolded, to my knowledge neither the CrossRunner nor CrossTourer are available here in the US. That brings to a more fine point the fact that while this is a US based forum with very active subgroups within many countries, it is still a US based forum and as such we have designated models as they become available here in North America. To you next bolded point, the VFR800 had been dead for two years when the VFR1200 was introduced here in North America. We realize that many countries were still getting the 2002 VFR (with updated ECM and clear signal indicator lenses) in most of the rest of the world through 2010 when it died an ignominious death as the VFR1200 was brought to market (without a real marketing strategy in my mind). Still here in North America you can purchase new 2012/2013 VFR1200 models as well as new 2014/2015 VFR800 models so while I don't quite grasp this line of reasoning from you to make your point it is never the less inaccurate. Regarding the last bolded points it would stand to reason that it should be "an entirely different model" to get another model generation designation. Was the VF1000R an entirely different model from the VF500F? I know what I think you are trying to say here but both RC36 models have a quite a bit in common, should they both be 3rd Gen (or are you proposing that we call them some other variant)? Likewise the last gear driven cam model and the Vtec bikes are also RC46 designated by Honda but we clearly recognize differences there. I get what you "finally have to take issue with" but our discussion in 2010 as the 7th Gen was being released was heated and that discussion was "Is the VFR1200F a VFR?!?" and once we calmed down long enough to realize that it was kind of silly to argue about such things when so much else was going on in the world we agreed that Honda declared it a VFR even though it was nothing like any VFR previous (dirt bike valve actuation and shaft-driven?) and should have been the ST1300 replacement we needed to assign it a colloquial "Generational" designation. Basically the Generational nomenclature does not only apply to middleweight sport touring VF's and VFRs. Well I need to first point out that I NEVER emboldened ANY of my original post. If it appears to you that way then someone else has done that. Secondly, bringing old models like the VF1000 into this discussion is simply a red herring - they're irrelevant. Thirdly, the fact this is a US centric forum is another red herring. Whether the adventure style bikes are offered in the US or not makes no difference to the point I am making, which is:- The VFR1200 is not and never was simply a generational successor to the VFR750/800. Maybe all you lot over there in the US (this being a US based site) thought it was, but as has now been shown, the inescapable fact is that was an incorrect assumption. I am simply suggesting that this site should now reflect the TRUE situation. What you or anyone may have thought in the past, but can now been seen as incorrect is not relevant, apart from explaining why this site is now incorrectly categorising models. But hey, I'm just suggesting how to make this forum's model groupings more accurate, but if they choose to simply continue with its current inaccurate and illogical grouping, that is of course up to them. But it'll be interesting to see how the current groupings would be made to handle the simultaneous introduction of a new version of the 800 and the 1200. Maybe not next year or the year after, but it could happen and then the fault with the current grouping will raise it ugly head as it will not be possible to fit them in. Ergo, the basic premise of the current grouping system is flawed. I'm obviously not the only one who sees the truth in what I'm saying, but like them, I'm not going to waste any more time over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer The mailman Posted July 29, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted July 29, 2015 ...and now I know why the Pilgrims came over here.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer tbzep Posted July 29, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted July 29, 2015 I like rainbows and flowers and puppies. You can't have those three together. The flowers and rainbows are colorful, the puppy cannot/will not be included in your group. Put the puppy in the LEO vehicle group as they are most likely black or white. You will also find puppies inside Leo vehicles as well. Follow me now.... Next patient please... These are classic symptoms of Industrial Disease. Nope. They go together. You haven't met Timmy's puppy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Dutchy Posted July 29, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted July 29, 2015 Today I once again saw Timmy's puppies...... Ride carefully you old fool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer The mailman Posted July 29, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted July 29, 2015 tbzep - That was a true LOL! Dutchy - Were you looking on purpose or did you accidentally catch a glimpse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Dutchy Posted July 29, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted July 29, 2015 Euhhhh..... 5th Amendement baby!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer MaxSwell Posted July 29, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted July 29, 2015 Euhhhh..... 5th Amendement baby!!!!! You've got one of those over there?! The amazement never stops on this fabulous site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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