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Hydrolocked By Left Rear Cylinder


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One thing to think about is a good valve seal should keep out most water out of the combustion chamber, so I find it a little odd that i keeps filling up the chamber if it is coming through the intake or exhaust, what are the odds that the engine stops every time with same valve open. If you are trying to start it before checking, then it would have to be on the intake side since it would suck that side in and a blow the exhaust side out. Can you use some powder to check the flow of rain over the airbox and intake? That much water almost has to flow into on open hole or puddle up on a smaller leak.

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I'll admit that I didn't read all 8 pages of this thread this morning, but has the cooling system been pressurized while the engine is cold, and while the engine is hot?

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I'll admit that I didn't read all 8 pages of this thread this morning, but has the cooling system been pressurized while the engine is cold, and while the engine is hot?

Only when outside and in the rain.

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Damn, I had a nice long reply drafted and lost it!

Anyway, Not Spark Plugs. There is a drain to prevent water from building up on the threads. The plug would have to be removed. If the drain were clogged and water did sit there, it's going to be far more damaging for combustion gasses escaping. Plus the plug has been in and out so many times it would have been accidentally properly sealed by now, if it had actually leaked down at some point.

Getting an RTV seal on the PAIR plates is not a difficult task by any means. Even I got it done, and with basic ebay bought plates, not fancy ones. Hopefully you've done that, RTV sealed the block off plates. I've even seen the passage that leads to the exhaust valve blocked with solid metal dowel and/or welded. Could look into that for piece of mind.

Agree with Timmy, no way for water to defy gravity while parked to leak past exhaust header gaskets.

That leaves me agreeing with SamW and intake. But it still would have to be getting past the valves somehow. It's unlikely that it shuts off with the same cylinder intake valves open every time it rains. But it could be leaking past something in the intake tract and making it's way to the intake valves. Maybe one or both of the intake valves doesn't quite seat fully?

Just looked at my throttle body and the intake boot. Looks like an area that could have rain water running over it. Could be poorly seated or a crack in the boot.

I still think (the royal) you should check the valve clearances. I know video games don't play themselves, so it's tough to get the time together to clean out the garage to park inside... :wacko:

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OK, so there are ONLY 4 normal ways for anything to get into the cylinder, these are as follows, via;-

1. The Valves

2. The Spark Plug

3. The Piston Rings

4. The Head Gasket

5. Crack in head or cylinder (not normal)

So working in reverse order we can exclude certain items. Head Gasket, would either consume fluid & the caught fluid would be coolant, or it would over pressure the cooling system &/or produce white smoke with the engine running. So not likely. Same for number 5, you would experience other issues probably !

Piston Rings, when on centre stand the oil level is just below the water pump shaft hole, when on side stand even with piston at BDC on #1, the level is NO WHERE near the base of the piston, thus the crankcase would need to fill with water to come up past the rings. So not an option.

The Spark plug, is generally a sealed item once located, so unlikely to be an issue. You would lose spark if the plug itself was leaking & you would experience blowby marks from combustion if it was loose, as well as damp on the plug cap sides & in the plug tunnel.

That leaves the valves, which strangely are where stuff is supposed to enter the cylinder from. As the throttle bodies are under the airbox & that is under the tank, then generally this area is shielded from water. Except for a few areas !

The tank filler has a drain/overflow which is connected to a stub under the tank front right on 5th gens, assume same on 6th & later.

If that stub does NOT have a hose attached &/or if the hose is blocked, then it will leak water onto the top of the airbox, around where the snorkel fits into the airbox.

If you have removed the snorkel & the bike is on the side stand, then this water could track along the inside of the airbox lid, following a gravity path it would meet the cross lid reinforcement & then potentially drip in the rear left area of the airbox. If you have a standard filter this would pass through the filter & may drip directly into the velocity stack for that cylinder ! Which is #1 at rear left !!!!!

The other areas, are drip into inside of airbox then runs across floor of airbox & seeps around outside of velocity stack into the #1 cylinder throttle body & into the cylinder. Alternately, if the airbox is NOT fitted properly, this water could track around outside of airbox following a gravity path to the rubber TB isolators that link TB to head, if the airbox, or the TB clamp is loose, then water could seep into the intake on #1 cylinder.

I'd expect it to be the first of these two as the issue. Can be determined, by lifting tank & opening airbox after a period of rain ! Use a chammy to dry the excess water off the tank before lifting to ensure only rain that has got there before you leaves wet marks.

As far as the PAIR suggestions go as an access point, it does not stack up, this is under the tank, you would detect wet around the PAIR head cover. Assuming PAIR is still enabled/attached. But it is an option for a water access point. You could always go as far as TDC/BDC parking that cylinder so exhaust or inlet only is open or neither & see what happens then. If PAIR exhaust will have water in it, if intake & valve seal is good, then water will appear below butterflies !

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Just for my satisfaction I would put that cylinder on TDC and pull the plug and insert a adapter and pressurize the cylinder. Then listen for escaping air. Don't know if it will enlighten the problem or not BUT we are fast approaching a brick wall .

Roll On ..

Figured that was it .

Time to pressurize the cylinder .

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Stuff that intake full of paper towel before you leave it in the rain, then (obviously) check it again before you start it up to see if it's wet.

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I know this is going to sound stupid but why would you leave this bike out in the torrential rain. You could maybe put a cover over it or pull it into a garage. I mean c'mon.

I am sure when at work at the local Best Buy he should just roll it into the stereo installation bay or better yet right in the front door to the mobile phone department where he works.

Not trying to be a dick regarding your response and realize that most who didn't get involved early are not going to wade through 9 pages of a thread to offer helpful advice. His brother has had his bike backed over 3 TIMES in the parking lot across the street at Starbuck's where he works.

I guess he could purchase some hard bags and always carry a cover but that's not solve a problem that shouldn't be happening.

it realistically can only be 4 things:

pair

spark plug threads

intake

exhaust

one would think the exhaust could be eliminated, because water will not defy gravity. Then you go to what was modified...aha. Deduction has shown it to be the pair system.

BTW, you should really fill that jug with oil while you figure it out. That much water on top of the piston is scary.

We have stopped trying to start it after a rain and now he pulls the rear plugs in about 4 minutes and then cranks it over. He got tired of the $40 oil changes that lasted only a week or two this summer. If you try to start the engine with water on top of the piston SOME water will leak by and make the oil milky.

One thing to think about is a good valve seal should keep out most water out of the combustion chamber, so I find it a little odd that i keeps filling up the chamber if it is coming through the intake or exhaust, what are the odds that the engine stops every time with same valve open. If you are trying to start it before checking, then it would have to be on the intake side since it would suck that side in and a blow the exhaust side out. Can you use some powder to check the flow of rain over the airbox and intake? That much water almost has to flow into on open hole or puddle up on a smaller leak.

Sam I actually think that an engine with 50,000 miles on it may stop in close to the same or two on most shut downs. When you think about kick starting an old bike (you kids go look it up on the interweb) I seem to recall that many times the piston/valve relationship was very similar. I would have to rotate the crank about half a turn to get on a good compression stroke to start it.

Maybe I am all wrong on that aspect with a modern 4 cylinder engine but i bet it has favorite places to stop as well.

I'll admit that I didn't read all 8 pages of this thread this morning, but has the cooling system been pressurized while the engine is cold, and while the engine is hot?

It has not. There is no coolant missing and the rain water only appears in the two rear cylinders after it rains.

Just for my satisfaction I would put that cylinder on TDC and pull the plug and insert a adapter and pressurize the cylinder. Then listen for escaping air. Don't know if it will enlighten the problem or not BUT we are fast approaching a brick wall .

Roll On ..

Figured that was it .

Time to pressurize the cylinder .

Probably is time to do that David.

Stuff that intake full of paper towel before you leave it in the rain, then (obviously) check it again before you start it up to see if it's wet.

We can try that but it is a bit of a pain since he commutes on it to go out and remove the airbox to access the intake tract before and after each ride (2-4 times daily depending on lunch schedule and girl friend availability).

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after each ride (2-4 times daily depending on lunch schedule and girl friend availability).

Ahhhh.... to be young and not yet married...................

:goofy:

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Time to study the diagram again. The areas I circled in red are possibilities but the purple one is intriguing because all kinds of possibilities with water dripping down into the intake either after pooling at the filter or in the cupped area. The top left red circled area could easily be where it is happening.

post-1814-0-02732500-1437132407.png

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The purple highlights the crankcase breather which could NOT possibly deliver fluid of any kind to the top side of piston #1. For a start the 2D pic does not show you that it is located in the rear right of the airbox just below the split of top/bottom halves, so bike on side stand could NOT flow to that corner, against gravity & even if it was possible the hose leads to a baffle in the cam cover & then into the head, if water got in there the cams would be toast in short order !

I'll stick with my original path, that the tank filler drain/overflow pipe is missing from the stub on the tank under side & leaking rain water into/onto the airbox.

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The purple highlights the crankcase breather which could NOT possibly deliver fluid of any kind to the top side of piston #1. For a start the 2D pic does not show you that that is located in the rear right of the airbox just below the split of top/bottom halves, so bike on side stand could NO flow to that corner, against gravity & even if it was possible the hose leads to a baffle in the cam cover & then into the head, if water got in there the cams would be toast in short order !

I'll stick with my original path, that the tank filler drain/overflow pipe is missing from the stub on the tank under side & leaking rain water into/onto the airbox.

Thanks for the clarification Mo. Your thought is close to mine except I originally suspected the tank drain/overflow was mistakenly connected to a vacuum port and they somehow tuned around it.

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Time to reverse engineer the problem. Start first with air pressure. Take out the spark plug and inject air through the plug hole, and observe where the air escapes. If just compressed air is inconclusive, try using a smoke machine. If that doesn't pan out, use a liquid test medium.

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Stuff that intake full of paper towel before you leave it in the rain, then (obviously) check it again before you start it up to see if it's wet.

We can try that but it is a bit of a pain since he commutes on it to go out and remove the airbox to access the intake tract before and after each ride (2-4 times daily depending on lunch schedule and girl friend availability).

What I meant was just take the filter cover and filter out and stuff paper towel into the horn, down to the throttle plate. You should see it get wet if it's coming in that way. Yes it would be a pain but what is the alternative, pull the plug every time? You could just put the tank bolts finger tight and put a bungee cord over the filter cover as a temporary measure.

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I was going to say bad seal on fuel tank cap and water making it to throttle bodies vía overflow drain... Somehow, somewhere along that path... Maybe badly seated boot on #1 as well... Get some fluoro tracking powder, like the colorant used in rad coolant to trace leaks and pulverize it over the tank to trace where the water goes.

Enviado desde mi G630-U20 mediante Tapatalk

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Things could be weirder.....like how late 90's VW Jetta as ended up with brake fluid in their rear tailight housings.....

True story, ask Some Jetta owners about it. Apparently the brake fluid level sensors in the brake fluid reservoir for the cars was actually siphoning the brake fluid through the wire it was connected to, which then worked it's way through the main wiring harness, then eventually to the tail light housings....

VW even issued a TSB on it and had to replace the related parts for free for the owners.....

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This is the strangest thread I've ever followed.

In my mind, it can't be the plug, Pair valve or head/gasket.

It has to be coming through the throttle bodies, or more likely the rubber insulator bands (boots).

It's the only thing that makes sense.

Either way, you are going to have to remove them to find out.

Or just cover the damn bike with plastic when it rains.

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This is the strangest thread I've ever followed.

In my mind, it can't be the plug, Pair valve or head/gasket.

It has to be coming through the throttle bodies, or more likely the rubber insulator bands (boots).

It's the only thing that makes sense.

Either way, you are going to have to remove them to find out.

Or just cover the damn bike with plastic when it rains.

Best suggestion yet

If this happened once you'd think it would be covered somehow to to make sure it never happened again. Instead this person leaves it out time after time with the same result every time. How anyone can do that to any bike is beyond me. Cover the damn bike when it looks like rain, doesn't matter where you work or where the bike is parked. This engine has been filled with water so many times it's junk now. Good f..ing grief

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Simple way to check my theory, it to place a small cover over just the top of the tank, so that is stops water getting to the filler cap. If bike works after torrential rain then that is the ingress point !

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Simple way to check my theory, it to place a small cover over just the top of the tank, so that is stops water getting to the filler cap. If bike works after torrential rain then that is the ingress point !

This is the strangest thread I've ever followed.

In my mind, it can't be the plug, Pair valve or head/gasket.

It has to be coming through the throttle bodies, or more likely the rubber insulator bands (boots).

It's the only thing that makes sense.

Either way, you are going to have to remove them to find out.

Or just cover the damn bike with plastic when it rains.

Best suggestion yet

If this happened once you'd think it would be covered somehow to to make sure it never happened again. Instead this person leaves it out time after time with the same result every time. How anyone can do that to any bike is beyond me. Cover the damn bike when it looks like rain, doesn't matter where you work or where the bike is parked. This engine has been filled with water so many times it's junk now. Good f..ing grief

I''m sure your helpful observations and practical suggestions will be taken under advisement since Keith and the boys seem like the type that would just give up and accept the inevitable. Probably why Keith never has anything interesting or funny to say whenever I see him.

Thanks for the help guys

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This is the strangest thread I've ever followed.

In my mind, it can't be the plug, Pair valve or head/gasket.

It has to be coming through the throttle bodies, or more likely the rubber insulator bands (boots).

It's the only thing that makes sense.

Either way, you are going to have to remove them to find out.

Or just cover the damn bike with plastic when it rains.

Best suggestion yet

If this happened once you'd think it would be covered somehow to to make sure it never happened again. Instead this person leaves it out time after time with the same result every time. How anyone can do that to any bike is beyond me. Cover the damn bike when it looks like rain, doesn't matter where you work or where the bike is parked. This engine has been filled with water so many times it's junk now. Good f..ing grief

But that wouldn't fix the problem would it? Out of sight, out of mind, but will still come round to bite him on the backside at some point in the future, probably at the worst possible time. Best to investigate & fix it.

Personally, I really hope we get a resolution, this is one of the strangest things I've heard & would be very disappointed if he just said"oh well, we'll just cover it instead of getting to the bottom of it"

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This is the strangest thread I've ever followed.

In my mind, it can't be the plug, Pair valve or head/gasket.

It has to be coming through the throttle bodies, or more likely the rubber insulator bands (boots).

It's the only thing that makes sense.

Either way, you are going to have to remove them to find out.

Or just cover the damn bike with plastic when it rains.

Best suggestion yet

If this happened once you'd think it would be covered somehow to to make sure it never happened again. Instead this person leaves it out time after time with the same result every time. How anyone can do that to any bike is beyond me. Cover the damn bike when it looks like rain, doesn't matter where you work or where the bike is parked. This engine has been filled with water so many times it's junk now. Good f..ing grief

Ahh so you're one of those "let's cover up broken things because they fix themselves" kind of guys aren't you? Like kebrider said, i'll put your suggestions into top advisement, i was gonna put your comment in the spam folder (where i keep "f...ing" stuff i don't want) but i thought i'd get it out of the way instead.

Thanks.

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This is the strangest thread I've ever followed.

In my mind, it can't be the plug, Pair valve or head/gasket.

It has to be coming through the throttle bodies, or more likely the rubber insulator bands (boots).

It's the only thing that makes sense.

Either way, you are going to have to remove them to find out.

Or just cover the damn bike with plastic when it rains.

Best suggestion yet

If this happened once you'd think it would be covered somehow to to make sure it never happened again. Instead this person leaves it out time after time with the same result every time. How anyone can do that to any bike is beyond me. Cover the damn bike when it looks like rain, doesn't matter where you work or where the bike is parked. This engine has been filled with water so many times it's junk now. Good f..ing grief

Ahh so you're one of those "let's cover up broken things because they fix themselves" kind of guys aren't you?

snip

I really can't remember saying that.

Of course you have to find the problem, but don't keep filling the engine with water to do it. I simply can't even imagine letting it happen more than the first time.

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