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Need Some Brake Work - Suggestions Requested


mk3dub

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As the title says, I need to do some work to the brakes on my non-ABS 2003 VTEC. I'm trying to avoid re-inventing the wheels, so I'm curious about what's been done. Before you remind me that the bike is about 150 lbs heavier than a modern 600, the calipers are low budget sliding units, and the brakes are linked...I'm aware. This bike will never see a track, but the brakes are the worst in my garage. Compared to my other bikes, these feel cruiser-esque (i.e. plan your stops)! Moderate riding is OK, but those hard/fast panic stops to avoid deer, traffic, etc. don't leave a lot of confidence.

What's been done:

1. Rebuilt m/c and brake calipers. Done moreso because the bike is old and I wanted a known starting point. No noticeable improvement, but little was expected.

2. Fresh bleed with RBF600. As those who have fitted new lines know, bleeding was 'fun'. Took a couple attempts and the addition of a banjo bleeder at the m/c, but I'm confident the air is out.

3. Galfer SS brake line kit.

4. Galfer sintered pads.

5. Old set of Pirelli Angel GTs. Going to swap these for Pilot Road 4 soon.

6. Traxxion AK20's w/ 0.95 kg/mm springs (I'm about 205 lbs in gear).

I have a 16 mm radial m/c off of an R6 that I'm considering trying. Given the larger diameter piston, I'm expecting about a 14% increase in effort but a corresponding decrease in lever travel. With the benefits of a radial's more rigid mount, I'd expect better feel. What is the general consensus here? I know I'm not the first to do this, so I'd appreciate some thoughts on what works and what doesn't.

Any do's and don't's surrounding brake pad selection?

Any other tips or tricks I'm missing?

I'm pretty much invested in the stock calipers due to the cartridges in the forks and the ss brake lines. Hopefully I'm not trying to jam a square peg into a round hole! Thoughts?

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Sounds like you've got a rare bird there. The VFR generally has some of the best brakes available. Mine was a two finger with the stock setup, with Galfer stainless lines and HH pads it's now a one finger stop.

Is the brake lever really firm? Mine feels solid with no "squishy" feeling. Have you checked that all the pistons are moving? Maybe you've got a couple of stuck ones. Did you clean up the rotor really well with a Scotch Brite pad? I've never used Galfer pads so I can't comment on their effectiveness.

Weak/ineffective brakes on a VFR just seems so weird.

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Okay, my 02 runs HEL lines, EBC HH pads front and Honda stock pad rear, stock forks and shock, and I can stop on a dime and have great feel. My master cylinders and calipers have 50,000 miles on them, and I haven't rebuilt them. Given that the bike only had 20,000 miles on it when I got it, I suspect they have never been rebuilt.

I'm smelling some sort of hydraulic problem, and given everything you have done, I would bleed the brakes, again. I have no idea of your skill set, but I passed on installing new lines (as you probably know, there are 9 including the clutch), and handed it off to a private shop because I suspected I would never get the lines bled correctly.

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I've been happy with the EBC HH pads on my 5th gen. I also have the SS lines and Galfer wave rotors though. I have 73k miles on mine and bought it with 2900. The calipers or master cylinders have never been rebuilt. I clean the caliper pistons before pushing them back in when changing pads, but I've never disassembled them.......probably should one of these days but I just got done with the SS lines and really don't want to go through bleeding those again for a while.

I know my brakes don't work that well when cold. The first stop or two coming out of the driveway is definitely not great. After they get some heat in them, they work well enough. Not like the VFR1200 brakes, or even my GSXR600, but fairly decent.

Not sure if you will get more feel out of a bigger master cylinder or not. Maybe because it is a radial one, but normally you get less travel, stiffer lever, and worse feel with a larger diameter (unless of course your pistons are designed for the larger M/C). Guess it is all in your definition of better feel.

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Odd, for some reason, I didn't get notification of replied to the thread. Interesting.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback. It was a long, long, long winter so I honestly cannot say if the brakes are the better, worse, or the same as compared to fully stock. At this point, I can only guess. I don't ever remember being 'blown away' with the stock setup, though. That said, I'm still not happy with the current setup. Hearing the comments here, I'm going to try for another bleed (though in fairness, the front's bleed very easily, which is the bulk of what I feel) and will check the pistons.

Lever travel? There is a good bit of travel before anything meaningful happens, but it's reasonably firm once I get to that point. Feels like shit in comparison to my FZ-09 w/ R6 master cylinder or CBR600RR w/ Brembo RC19, however.

I suppose I could try swapping back to the stock pads. These pads do like a bit of heat to get going, but the difference isn't tremendous between hot and cold.

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I have my lever set to initiate braking very early in the lever movement.

Do you feel resistance in the lever travel or is it free travel before it gets to the master cylinder actuating piston?

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Understand you say you are committed to the stock calipers, but I'll be the butt head contrarian and say - delink it! The process would be acquire F4i lower legs for your forks, and swap that with your lower legs on your 6th gen. Then that gives you the option of --- RC51/F4i/954 calipers and use the matching master cyclinder. Keep the stock wheel and rotor and spacers. And then in the rear get a 14mm M/C - a stock Rc51/SH/F4i will bolt in place with near zero mods. Bridge the 3 pistons in the rears. Shit can the extra plumbing and the proportioner valve. Then go out and enjoy real brakes!

Extra bonus, its about a 6 pound drop in unsprung weight.

:cool:

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Odd, for some reason, I didn't get notification of replied to the thread. Interesting.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback. It was a long, long, long winter so I honestly cannot say if the brakes are the better, worse, or the same as compared to fully stock. At this point, I can only guess. I don't ever remember being 'blown away' with the stock setup, though. That said, I'm still not happy with the current setup. Hearing the comments here, I'm going to try for another bleed (though in fairness, the front's bleed very easily, which is the bulk of what I feel) and will check the pistons.

Lever travel? There is a good bit of travel before anything meaningful happens, but it's reasonably firm once I get to that point. Feels like shit in comparison to my FZ-09 w/ R6 master cylinder or CBR600RR w/ Brembo RC19, however.

I suppose I could try swapping back to the stock pads. These pads do like a bit of heat to get going, but the difference isn't tremendous between hot and cold.

No idea about the Vfr brake problem (mines got a gsxr front end with radials) but if you decide to get rid of the spare R6master, let me know- I also have an MT 09, and looking to upgrade it.

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I have a 16 mm radial m/c off of an R6 that I'm considering trying. Given the larger diameter piston, I'm expecting about a 14% increase in effort but a corresponding decrease in lever travel. With the benefits of a radial's more rigid mount, I'd expect better feel.

If the pivot distance of both brake master clinders is the same, expect an increase in effort of 30% (a 16mm. brake master cilinder is 30% larger than the 6th gen 14mm master cilinder). If the pivot distances are not equal, and that is not unlikely as e.g. Brembo radials come in 16,18 & 20mm pivot distance. I don't know what the pivot distance is of the 6th gen but on my 3rd gen it is roughly 25mm. If the 6th gen is close to that number it could add another 30% extra effort.

I would check & clean the pads and discs before anything else. As the others have said, the stock brake setup is more than adequate and you should have not problem lifting the rear wheel when braking.

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Odd, for some reason, I didn't get notification of replied to the thread. Interesting.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback. It was a long, long, long winter so I honestly cannot say if the brakes are the better, worse, or the same as compared to fully stock. At this point, I can only guess. I don't ever remember being 'blown away' with the stock setup, though. That said, I'm still not happy with the current setup. Hearing the comments here, I'm going to try for another bleed (though in fairness, the front's bleed very easily, which is the bulk of what I feel) and will check the pistons.

Lever travel? There is a good bit of travel before anything meaningful happens, but it's reasonably firm once I get to that point. Feels like shit in comparison to my FZ-09 w/ R6 master cylinder or CBR600RR w/ Brembo RC19, however.

I suppose I could try swapping back to the stock pads. These pads do like a bit of heat to get going, but the difference isn't tremendous between hot and cold.

No idea about the Vfr brake problem (mines got a gsxr front end with radials) but if you decide to get rid of the spare R6master, let me know- I also have an MT 09, and looking to upgrade it.

I recognize your username. You might recognize me as Stoltec Moto over there :happy:

I have a 16 mm radial m/c off of an R6 that I'm considering trying. Given the larger diameter piston, I'm expecting about a 14% increase in effort but a corresponding decrease in lever travel. With the benefits of a radial's more rigid mount, I'd expect better feel.

If the pivot distance of both brake master clinders is the same, expect an increase in effort of 30% (a 16mm. brake master cilinder is 30% larger than the 6th gen 14mm master cilinder). If the pivot distances are not equal, and that is not unlikely as e.g. Brembo radials come in 16,18 & 20mm pivot distance. I don't know what the pivot distance is of the 6th gen but on my 3rd gen it is roughly 25mm. If the 6th gen is close to that number it could add another 30% extra effort.

I would check & clean the pads and discs before anything else. As the others have said, the stock brake setup is more than adequate and you should have not problem lifting the rear wheel when braking.

Checked pistons yesterday. No issues, all work well. While in there, I swapped what I had previously thought were stock pads back in. They aren't. They are EBC HH. Incidentally, there is more feel and stopping power with the EBC's, so I'm happy with the improvement. That said, it still doesn't leave me particularly impressed.

Given a change in piston diameter alone, the 16 mm swap would require 14% more effort (as mentioned in my original post). But you are correct that moving the pivot will further impact the effort.

The initial lever travel feels excessive to me, but I've concluded that there is no air in the system. Bleeding by hand, MityVac, and compressor all confirm that. Once the initial travel is taken up, the pull is firm and feel is decent. But that first bit of travel is too much for me and what I'm used to. And to be clear, it doesn't demonstrate any of the classic 'air in the system' symptoms...no sponginess, lever never pulls to the bar, etc. I disassembled the m/c to check the bore and all is well.

After riding this some more, I'm just about convinced that I have a fully functional VFR brake system. I realized that the rotors are smaller than the FZ-09, the calipers are only 3 piston sliding (as opposed to the FZ's 4 piston fixed monoblocks), and the bike weighs about 150 lbs more. Same kind of comparison with the CBR600RR. I either need to adjust my expectations or get to wrenching.

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This is a total thread hijack, but I would love to here your thoughts about the FZ-09. And maybe even a comparison between it and the VFR.

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Stoltec whonow?

Just kidding, I read through some of your posts and decided to try and hunt down an R1/6 mc instead of the 3/4 one I had. Aus dollar to US isn't so good right now, so looking for a second hand one instead of new.

When my 5th was standard, I though the brakes were okay, but terrifying in the wet. They needed a good handful to be decent.

But if you use the rear at the same time to activate the extra piston on the front brakes, much better. I can't imagine the 5th and 6th brakes are that different.

There is a big difference to the MT brakes though.

Give it a go, and if it's rubbish, sell it to me.

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This is a total thread hijack, but I would love to here your thoughts about the FZ-09. And maybe even a comparison between it and the VFR.

I'm a long-time fan of triples. Started my love affair with a 1050 Speed Triple and eventually owned a Tiger 1050 (Speed Triple'd up) and a Daytona 675. From the moment I saw Yamaha's plans on the FZ-09, I knew it was going to be a hit and I knew I wanted in. The engine is an absolute monster with a perfectly linear torque curve. Despite 'only' having 115 hp (crank), it makes power like a much bigger bike. Tt helps that the stock bike is about 414 lbs wet, but it'll run with the plastic clad liter bikes up to about 80 mph when drag and horsepower start playing games.

I'm hardly a good person to extol on the stock bike, because mine is FAR from it. That said, it's simply killer once you dial in the suspension and ECU. Here are a couple links to some of the work I've done...if you feel like reading:

http://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/yamaha-fz-09-improving-the-suspension

http://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/yamaha-fz-09-improving-the-fueling

http://www.fz09.org/forum/10-fz-09-builds/412-stoltec-project-bike-gonna-long-thread.html

It's hard to compare it to the VFR in all seriousness. The VFR is much bigger, heavier, and a good bit slower. None of that is a dig on the VFR, because I quite like the viffer for commuting and general sport touring. It's stable, predictable, and sane while still having a charismatic engine. It's a great daily bike. The FZ can do that too, but it has some seriously sharp teeth that it'll bear in the blink of an eye if provoked. The key is setting up the suspension and ECU for sport riding (if that's your thing) and going along for the ride. Or, if it suits you, leave it stock and enjoy the ~$8k pricetag. Triumph has some work to do to catch up, IMO.

Stoltec whonow?

Just kidding, I read through some of your posts and decided to try and hunt down an R1/6 mc instead of the 3/4 one I had. Aus dollar to US isn't so good right now, so looking for a second hand one instead of new.

When my 5th was standard, I though the brakes were okay, but terrifying in the wet. They needed a good handful to be decent.

But if you use the rear at the same time to activate the extra piston on the front brakes, much better. I can't imagine the 5th and 6th brakes are that different.

There is a big difference to the MT brakes though.

Give it a go, and if it's rubbish, sell it to me.

You'll like the Yamaha Brembo. It's a great bargain (not accounting for your conversion rate). Your description is actually pretty well-put: "They needed a good handful to be decent". I'd say they are good enough all around, but they lack the oomph that I like when riding in the twisties, and they don't have that immediacy I've come to love with riding where I do (combo of rural deer infested roads and a mix of 80+ mph highway). It's those 'major' stopping events that leave me questioning if I'm going to run into the car in front of me. I never have that question on my other bikes. Again, in fairness, there is a really good chance that I've just been spoiled and reverting back to ~17 year old technology is hard on my riding style.

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