Veefer800Canuck Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Honda uses steel in those bearing spacer/pivot applications, so you should too. Resist the temptation to go with aluminum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rush2112 Posted March 17, 2015 Author Member Contributer Share Posted March 17, 2015 Honda uses steel in those bearing spacer/pivot applications, so you should too. Resist the temptation to go with aluminum. Thanks Veefer... I agree, I don't think aluminum is a good choice since the collars are also the inner race for the roller bearings. I didn't know if one of the stainless types or one of the steel alloys would be a good option. I know some have excellent tool ability while others have greater strength. I want to have some knowledge when I talk to a machine shop to be able to speak about material choices with a little intelligence. Any idea what kind of steel the Honda used in the collars? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Dutchy Posted March 17, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted March 17, 2015 Any idea what kind of steel the Honda used in the collars? These guys will be able to tell you......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer gig Posted March 17, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted March 17, 2015 Freely swinging sledge hammers, molten metal, and flip flops????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEBSPEED Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 I would make those from 932 bearing bronze. If you send me some dimensions I'll quote them for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Phantom Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Rush2112, on 17 Mar 2015 - 03:53 AM, said: That frame and swingarm combination looks great - like something out of HRC's skunkworks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rush2112 Posted March 17, 2015 Author Member Contributer Share Posted March 17, 2015 I would make those from 932 bearing bronze. If you send me some dimensions I'll quote them for you. Thank you very much Seb! You're a lifesaver. I'm traveling this week but I'll send you the final dimensions as soon as I can... btw, looking at the '06 VFR800 right inner collar it looks like it is made of bronze, the left side looks like some sort of stainless steel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rush2112 Posted March 27, 2015 Author Member Contributer Share Posted March 27, 2015 Quick update from the road... I ordered a 2003 CBR600RR triple tree for $24 delivered to get access to an intact stem. Got to do a little work before leaving for the week. Here they are lined up side by side... Hard to tell but they are both 224mm from bearing mount surface to top of steering stem... I have all the measurements to share when i get home in my note book, thread heights/widths, bearing surface heights, distances, etc... Here is the 600RR in my Harbor Freight 12 ton shop press I got on sale many years ago and still working fine... I'm not using the nut to press against!!! I put it on the threads to protect them in case the top of the stem started to compress and I could screw the nut off to help straighten them if necessary... the ram is not pressing on the nut and it shouldn't!!! It is pressing on the stem only... It makes one heck of a bang when the stem finally breaks loose... I don't know how many of the 12 tons I'm using but you certainly can feel the resistance building in the hydraulic ram handle as you pump up the pressure... a little nerve wracking at first! Pops right through in short work with the press... The pieces line up nicely, almost every dimension is the same (only difference is the width of the shoulder on the base of the stem). One big difference though, 600RR is on top... nice shiny alloy 929 stem is on the bottom; saved $100 but added 8.25 oz of steel steering stem!!! I knew it felt heavier when I handled the two triples, but I'm disappointed with the extra weight... I will be looking for an alloy stem in the future. No wonder the CBR1000 triples are so much more expensive! If you look at the base groove you can see a shiny wire looking thing tucked in the groove. Turns out the steel stem shaved a hair off the alloy triple either when it was pressed on or during the removal... I thought there may be some interaction between stem and the boss... don't know if the same happens with alloy on alloy but there was evidence of action here... Close inspection of the steering stem base looks like in a previous life this steering stem has seen some front end head stock stand damage... Adjusted the lower surface flush prior to pressing into my 929 lower bridge to ensure it would press in straight. I measured countersink prior to breaking the two triples down and there was a difference between the stem bases that resulted in about a 2.5mm difference IIRC. I used a zip tie and measured my calculated depth at 5.7mm to the bottom edge of the lock block to give me a visual reference as to when I pressed in far enough so I didn't end up like TTC... I'm an idiot though and 5.7mm was how far the shorter based 929 needed to go... the 600RR was 5.5mm! Well, at least I know it is well seated...good idea, poor execution. No harm though, I didn't try to force it too far... Here's the finished hybrid 929/600RR lower triple ready to go in this weekend when I get home! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rush2112 Posted March 27, 2015 Author Member Contributer Share Posted March 27, 2015 Also, Jamie Daugherty has been providing excellent advice and support to me on this project. Before digging in on the steering stem swap I needed to work with the rear end to ensure that the 929 shock would line up on the 954 swingarm (using 954 shock triangles) with the VFR frame mount location... Installed the shock and shined a laser through the shock top mount hole and it lines up beautifully dead center on the top of the shock (little red dot). Boxed the shock up and sent to Jamie for a rebuild and re-spring. The one he made for my Y2K is AWESOME and with the front fork internal upgrades from DMr it transformed the bikes handling so I'm excited and thankful JD is helping me with this project. Hopefully, this weekend I can get the front end on and mock up the rear suspension to give Jamie an exact shock length to modify the 929 to get the proper ride height and geometry. Once I get the shock length established I can pull the rear apart and get exact measurements for the axle collars to Seb... BTW... I couldn't find my Y2K top shock yoke to help with the mock up of the rear suspension so I looked on eB to pick one up... not real expensive but $15 - $20 bucks. Looked on RonAyers... $11 brand new... buyer beware on the auction sites!!! Looked up a 954 rear hugger too... same thing, $5 cheaper brand new then the cheapest used one online... go figure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veefer800Canuck Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Nice! Once you get rolling down the road, you'll forget all about those extra 8 ounces. Look at it this way: the steel stem will be more durable than an alloy one, and you won't have to worry about buggered threads like on the other ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer zoomzoom Posted March 27, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted March 27, 2015 Just love following the progress on your build Rush. I can only guess you are just having a fantastic time, even if you run into the odd snag. Helps to make the project more memorable. Noticed the swing arm and frame are looking nice and shiny, but the clutch pressure plate is still looking a little dull, wink, wink, nudge, nudge. LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Dutchy Posted March 27, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted March 27, 2015 Nudge nudge ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted March 27, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted March 27, 2015 You're just going to have to loose half a pound before you ride it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rush2112 Posted March 28, 2015 Author Member Contributer Share Posted March 28, 2015 Nice! Once you get rolling down the road, you'll forget all about those extra 8 ounces. Look at it this way: the steel stem will be more durable than an alloy one, and you won't have to worry about buggered threads like on the other ones. All good points... I was hoping to always put the lightest possible affordable part on as I build it to see what the final weight would be... I guess there is value in durability; besides, I'd hate to hurt something getting a nut on a buggered stem... Just love following the progress on your build Rush. I can only guess you are just having a fantastic time, even if you run into the odd snag. Helps to make the project more memorable. Noticed the swing arm and frame are looking nice and shiny, but the clutch pressure plate is still looking a little dull, wink, wink, nudge, nudge. LOL. Careful there ZZ... I may have to put you to work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer zoomzoom Posted March 29, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted March 29, 2015 As I mentioned Rush, I would LOVE the opportunity to polish the pressure plate for you. I am happy to polish the part for FREE, just send me the part. Would only cost you shipping. Honest to god, no strings attached. For me it is like a labor of love and the chance to help out a fellow member is great. Whenever I feel stressed or anxious I enjoy making things shiny. Just ask my wife. Some people drink, some read books, some jog, etc. etc. etc. The way I choose to relax is polishing stuff, and besides I bought the equipment and just need to use it. Hence my motorcycle, and my wife's VFR have more coats of wax on them than they do paint. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rush2112 Posted April 7, 2015 Author Member Contributer Share Posted April 7, 2015 Just wanted to give an update on my shock length measurement. I couldn't find any VFR800 rear shock top mounts in my garage so I ordered a new one from RonAyer. Anyway, it is on back order and I wanted to have everything mounted tight and mocked up on the rear suspension to get as accurate a shock length measurement as possible for JD to make my modded 929 shock. ETA on the rear shock mount is 4/7 so I will have a measurement as soon as I get my hands on the part. In the meantime... I got my roller bearings pressed on. I used zRoYz previous suggestion and ground out the inside of the old race to use as my bearing driver to press it on the steering stem... It was easier to press on upside down with a pipe and my shop press... You can see my lower triple is getting pretty chipped up... more on that later. I had read that people were grinding off the steering stops for clearance... I didn't realize that the stops actually interfere with the lower headstock! Soooooo... I marked the stops with silver sharpie to see what needed to be removed... I masked off the bearing to avoid contamination of the bearing & grease... I didn't want to go through the press out press in routine again. First tried the dremel... that didn't work Then tried the air grinder... that didn't work Finally, the angle grinder did the trick... wasn't pretty but it worked. I got both sides ground out sufficiently and put it in for a test fit... viola! It works... but now my steering stops are the front subframe mount instead of against the sides of the headstock... not sure yet how many degrees of rotation I have but I think this triple is going to be redone/replaced in phase 2 after I get the bike working... Cleaned it up, new plastic wrap around the bearing & grease, masked off with high temp tape and coat of satin black ceramic engine paint to make it pretty again... I popped it in a toaster oven at 225F for 20 minutes to give it a good hardening after drying for a day... popped the top bridge in the oven too! While I'm waiting for rear shock top mount to arrive so I can finish up the rear swingarm conversion measurements the front end will go on next; followed by the throttle bodies and cooling system... Bought a can of cylinder fogging oil to blow in through the spark plug holes since the engine has been sitting for God knows how long and in what conditions... I'll let that work its way in then disconnect the oil pump drive and spin the pump with a drill to flow fresh new oil throughout the motor before trying to fire her up... at that point I will probably have to pause and work on my Y2K to get her ready for TMAC (put in for my vacation days yesterday!!! Woo-Hoo!!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rush2112 Posted April 17, 2015 Author Member Contributer Share Posted April 17, 2015 Soooo... I was advised by a friend to get my fat a$$ moving and make some progress on this RVF800 track bike... I got some parts in the mail and made some time tonight... Got my triple tree installed... it was a bit of a job to get the All Balls roller bearings properly greased. They came dry from the manufacturer... a long time ago I was shown by a mechanical engineer how to properly grease roller bearings by forcing the grease into the bearing through the cage and race gap... if you don't have a bearing grease packing tool this is the proper way to do it. It's messy but works... I use nitrile gloves to help minimize the mess. Start with a large glop of grease in your left palm if you're right handed, hold the bearing in your right hand and chip away at the edge of the grease with the bearing forcing the grease up through the gap in the race and the cage... when done correctly you will start to see the grease push out from between the rollers; rotate the bearing and work you way around the whole circle... flip, and repeat doing it from the top of the bearing. You've now packed the bearing spaces between the rollers with grease, an even coat on the outside of the rollers and install. Sorry no pics... my hands were full and greasy ;)... and my apologies if everyone already knew that; hopefully, it helped at least one person. Anybody recognize anything strange in that picture? Next came the '09 ZX14 forks, '05 CBR1000 clipons, RC51 throttle, and the 929 top bridge... Love the look of the 929 top bridge and how it came out... I ordered a new Honda logo but I'm keeping the old one in there, I may polish it up... but I like the heritage. Lined the front wheel up and it turns out the inner spacing between the forks at the axle is 162mm... unfortunately, the ZX14 wheel with the spacers is 164mm... calling Mr. Seb, can you take 1mm off each front wheel spacer when you make my rear swingarm bushings? I'm concerned with the caliper/rotor alignment since this will move each rotor 1mm closer to each fork... there is a rotor isolator behind each rotor between it and the rim that if I remove it will offset a little of the distance... I'm not sure if removing the isolators are a good idea (they're there for a reason) and I don't know if 1mm will create an issue. The ZX14 calipers have a large window for the rotor and thick pads... thoughts? Popped the 954 rim and caliper on the 954 swingarm... Hey! It's starting top look like something recognizable... Nice beefy looking swingarm... Now I needed to get ride height established and a shock length to Jamie for my 929 upgrade with re-spring and re-valve. I finally got the rear shock top mount. I measured my 5th gen VFR800 which has the 929 upgrade for ride height. From the middle of the rear "axle" to the center of the left frankenbolt on the side of the rear subframe is 525mm unweighted on the center stand. This bike is set-up well and handles great... Jamie, Thank you again for your work on that bike! On the RVF800 track bike project with the CBR954 swingarm I set it at 520mm from the center of the axle to the frankenbolt on the left side with the axle set in the middle chain adjustment position; with this ride height I will have adjustability to shim and raise if necessary. The shock length necessary to achieve 520mm ride height is exactly 347mm from the center of the bottom shock mounting bolt where it attaches to the triangles to the bottom surface of the frame mounting point... I measured 3 times to be sure :) This was measured with a metric tape measure so the accuracy is probably +/- 0.5mm. This is what she looks like set at the correct ride height... That is a stock rear subframe that will be altered to reduce weight and possibly re-made in the future out of carbon fiber... Next up... pull the rear apart and get some exact measurements for the rear swingarm bushing/spacers and have them fabricated... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEBSPEED Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Sounds like you have big plans... let me know how I can help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rush2112 Posted April 17, 2015 Author Member Contributer Share Posted April 17, 2015 Sounds like you have big plans... let me know how I can help. Thanks Seb! I knew I could count on you Hopefully, life/wife/kids permitting, I will have measurements this weekend so we can discuss... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tailgunn Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Rush, yer in St. Louis? I am in the Metro East. If you need an extra hand some time I'd be happy to swing by and help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VFRfix Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 how much hp can a vfr engine be tuned up to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer JZH Posted April 17, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted April 17, 2015 Soooo... I was advised by a friend to get my fat a$$ moving and make some progress on this RVF800 track bike... I got some parts in the mail and made some time tonight... Got my triple tree installed... it was a bit of a job to get the All Balls roller bearings properly greased. They came dry from the manufacturer... a long time ago I was shown by a mechanical engineer how to properly grease roller bearings by forcing the grease into the bearing through the cage and race gap... if you don't have a bearing grease packing tool this is the proper way to do it. It's messy but works... I use nitrile gloves to help minimize the mess. Start with a large glop of grease in your left palm if you're right handed, hold the bearing in your right hand and chip away at the edge of the grease with the bearing forcing the grease up through the gap in the race and the cage... when done correctly you will start to see the grease push out from between the rollers; rotate the bearing and work you way around the whole circle... flip, and repeat doing it from the top of the bearing. You've now packed the bearing spaces between the rollers with grease, an even coat on the outside of the rollers and install. Sorry no pics... my hands were full and greasy ;)... and my apologies if everyone already knew that; hopefully, it helped at least one person. Anybody recognize anything strange in that picture? You've got a Canadian bike? Ciao, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEBSPEED Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 You've got a Canadian bike? Ciao, I thought it looked a bit too polite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted April 17, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted April 17, 2015 Soooo... I was advised by a friend to get my fat a$$ moving and make some progress on this RVF800 track bike... I got some parts in the mail and made some time tonight... Got my triple tree installed... it was a bit of a job to get the All Balls roller bearings properly greased. They came dry from the manufacturer... a long time ago I was shown by a mechanical engineer how to properly grease roller bearings by forcing the grease into the bearing through the cage and race gap... if you don't have a bearing grease packing tool this is the proper way to do it. It's messy but works... I use nitrile gloves to help minimize the mess. Start with a large glop of grease in your left palm if you're right handed, hold the bearing in your right hand and chip away at the edge of the grease with the bearing forcing the grease up through the gap in the race and the cage... when done correctly you will start to see the grease push out from between the rollers; rotate the bearing and work you way around the whole circle... flip, and repeat doing it from the top of the bearing. You've now packed the bearing spaces between the rollers with grease, an even coat on the outside of the rollers and install. Sorry no pics... my hands were full and greasy ;)... and my apologies if everyone already knew that; hopefully, it helped at least one person. I saw that on an episode of "Dirty Jobs!" It was a military episode (AF? Maybe?) Agree on the gull wing top bridge! Even though I had plenty of tube space to use a flat SP1, I didn't because the logo is off center and would have raised my hands too much. Using the VFR1200 stock handlebars that were taller than my original 5th Gen in conjunction with the lower gull wing bridge netted me slightly lower hand position without clearance issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rush2112 Posted April 18, 2015 Author Member Contributer Share Posted April 18, 2015 how much hp can a vfr engine be tuned up to? A 5th gen VFR800 is directly based on the RC45 (RVF750) engine... crankshaft and other internal goodies are different but it shares the same head and block. Depends on how you do it... RC45 came street legal stock with about 120hp... with work for the track ~145 hp... big bore Isle of Man RC45s were like 170 - 180hp... Torocharged 5th gen motors are in the same same HP range, maybe 160 - 170... Reality is... we are finding out what can be done with a normally aspirated VFR800 motor... Mohawk, HighsideNZ, and CandyRedRC46 are just some those pushing the envelope on this forum... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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