JohnnyImport Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 I am sorry to report that I am not educated enough to articulate my point after reading about oil, it can make ones head spin! However I still believe that if a manufacturer calls for 10w30 it will be better overall for the vehicle motorcycle or car to stay within that spec. To say that 0w30 is the same as mono grade 30 weight oil isn't exactly true, multi grade oils that are closer in number such as 10w30 over 0w30 are more stable, so once at temperature will offer better protection, I think for my money, using your application sheet I would run 10w30 and let the motorcycle come up in temperature before riding. Also I must disagree 0w has nothing to do with quality or technology of oil just viscosity index. Oil is way more complicated than hot and cold pressure, based on viscosity indexes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer YoshiHNS Posted February 23, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted February 23, 2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rush2112 Posted February 23, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted February 23, 2015 I always thought the starting numbers in multi-grade oil had to do with initial viscosity at cold weather starting temps... so a 5w would flow better with a lower viscosity than a 10w at the same cold engine temp... 0w would flow best at cold weather starting temps ...and the closer the numbers are the less the oil relies on additive packages to achieve the hot temp viscosity... so a 0w30 would need more additives to the base oil which expand and unravel with temp and increase viscosity at operating temp than a 10w30... ... Damn it, Jim... I'm a microbiologist not an engineer... I could be wrong... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veefer800Canuck Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 There are also many other factors to consider besides just oil weight all by itself. Race teams, for years now, have used a "thinner" oil to reduce frictional losses and gain that extra 1.1-1.5 Hp (or whatever it is). BUT, they also change their oil every 60 miles, and probably rebuild the engine every 2nd race meeting for max HP. AND, they build the engines "tight" in the top end, and "loose" on the bottom end, for the best combustion efficiency and the least frictional losses. None of that is practical nor applicable to a STREETbike. Also, with oils running at the "typical" factory manual's recommended mileage intervals on a STREET going motorcycle, there are things to consider like fuel dilution and perhaps shearing of the oil by the clutch and transmission. That can reduce an oil's viscosity index significantly near the end of the oil drain interval. How low can it go before you run into lubrication problems? I don't know, and I don't want to find out. I'll stick with my Mobil-1 15W50 and if I lose 0.9 of a horsepower because of it, I probably won't mourn the loss. Last time I had my clutch cover and valve covers off, all the working parts inside the engine looked MINT, shiny clean and perfect. Cam lobes, etc. All PERFECT. 16 years and almost 100,000km and I haven't had a single oil related failure ever. Been using either Motul or Mobil 15W50 exclusively since I bought the bike. Good enough for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer BusyLittleShop Posted February 25, 2015 Author Member Contributer Share Posted February 25, 2015 Thanks Rob for chiming in... I think we agree that a dyno is theproper tool by which to learn the amount of hp lost running a 50 overa 30... its no BS when I say that a 30 frees up another 6hp over the50... so your lost is not a mere 0.9hp... its around 6hp... thatsignificant amount of hp left on the table in unnecessary oil drag...key word is unnecessary because running a 30 does not show up asincrease wear... other benefits of running a 30 is more oil flowing pass thecritical bearings also less oil drag works to lower the over all temps...Honda states an owner can safely choose a 30 I've personally testedthis recommendation in Mr.RC45 for 17 years covering 95,000km and justlook at my cam lobes they are PERFECT too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer BusyLittleShop Posted February 25, 2015 Author Member Contributer Share Posted February 25, 2015 I am sorry to report that I am not educated enough to articulate my point after reading about oil, it can make ones head spin! However I still believe that if a manufacturer calls for 10w30 it will be better overall for the vehicle motorcycle or car to stay within that spec. To say that 0w30 is the same as mono grade 30 weight oil isn't exactly true, multi grade oils that are closer in number such as 10w30 over 0w30 are more stable, so once at temperature will offer better protection, I think for my money, using your application sheet I would run 10w30 and let the motorcycle come up in temperature before riding. Also I must disagree 0w has nothing to do with quality or technology of oil just viscosity index. Oil is way more complicated than hot and cold pressure, based on viscosity indexes I respect your reply... I've study oil non stop for 2 years and I realize most riders aren't educated enough to express their concerns and it can make ones head spin... my aim is too post the facts and politely challenge those long held beliefs... after all Miguel invented VFRD to multiply your pleasure and divide your grief... if you decide to try a 30 here's a list of motorcycle specific oils to choose from because I don't expect everyone to follow my 0w30 lead... Any one of 30 grade 100% synthetic motorcycle specific oils will meet and exceed both your track and mileage expectations... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer BusyLittleShop Posted February 25, 2015 Author Member Contributer Share Posted February 25, 2015 I always thought the starting numbers in multi-grade oil had to do with initial viscosity at cold weather starting temps... so a 5w would flow better with a lower viscosity than a 10w at the same cold engine temp... 0w would flow best at cold weather starting temps ...and the closer the numbers are the less the oil relies on additive packages to achieve the hot temp viscosity... so a 0w30 would need more additives to the base oil which expand and unravel with temp and increase viscosity at operating temp than a 10w30... ... Damn it, Jim... I'm a microbiologist not an engineer... I could be wrong... I can answer your questions on the level of an oil engineer... 5W The starting numbers and the letter W have no viscosity reference... API ranks the first number and the letter W from the newest to the oldest on its ability to lube your engine during critical start up 0w 5W 10W 15W 20W Additive Package Additive package is about 8 to 10 % of an oils volume and has no relationship to viscosity... Viscosity Improver What unravels and expands are Viscosity Improver VI... In a fully synthetic oil, the molecules have the same size and composition which decreases friction and consumes less HP so synthetics need less VI whereas the straight mineral oil the molecules vary in size and composition which increases friction and thus need more VI... that’s the chief reasons why synthetics recommend longer oil change intervals and shear down less than straight mineral oils... SYNTHETICS... MINERAL OIL What's important about a fully synthetic oil are the molecules which are the same size and composition which decreases friction... In a mineral oil the molecules vary in size and composition which increases friction... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rush2112 Posted February 25, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted February 25, 2015 I always thought the starting numbers in multi-grade oil had to do with initial viscosity at cold weather starting temps... so a 5w would flow better with a lower viscosity than a 10w at the same cold engine temp... 0w would flow best at cold weather starting temps ...and the closer the numbers are the less the oil relies on additive packages to achieve the hot temp viscosity... so a 0w30 would need more additives to the base oil which expand and unravel with temp and increase viscosity at operating temp than a 10w30... ... Damn it, Jim... I'm a microbiologist not an engineer... I could be wrong... I can answer your questions on the level of an oil engineer... 5W The starting numbers and the letter W have no viscosity reference... API ranks the first number and the letter W from the newest to the oldest on its ability to lube your engine during critical start up 0w 5W 10W 15W 20W Additive Package Additive package is about 8 to 10 % of an oils volume and has no relationship to viscosity... Viscosity Improver What unravels and expands are Viscosity Improver VI... In a fully synthetic oil, the molecules have the same size and composition which decreases friction and consumes less HP so synthetics need less VI whereas the straight mineral oil the molecules vary in size and composition which increases friction and thus need more VI... that’s the chief reasons why synthetics recommend longer oil change intervals and shear down less than straight mineral oils... ... What's important about a fully synthetic oil are the molecules which are the same size and composition which decreases friction... In a mineral oil the molecules vary in size and composition which increases friction... I picked up some M1 5w30 to test out based on your input... does the oil need to be motorcycle specific or will this work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyImport Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Although I am not convinced of the front side numbers, I definitely agree with everything you have stated regarding the benefits of running synthetic oils and running the lightest weight oil recommended for the application as 30 weight oil will have less drag on mechanical components than 50 weight. I am just not sure of stretching down to a 0w over the recommended 10w. Great info you have provided and even if people run only the recommended 10w30 it will still be better than heavier oils and plenty safe within manufacturers recommendations! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veefer800Canuck Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 http://www.upmpg.com/tech_articles/motoroil_viscosity/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyImport Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 That is a great article I especially like the part about the drawbacks of using "VI" in oils. So I am definitely of the opinion that stretching the 10w down to 0w is a bad idea! Great while the oil is fresh out of the bottle but how long do they last. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rush2112 Posted February 25, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted February 25, 2015 http://www.upmpg.com/tech_articles/motoroil_viscosity/ Ah-ha! So based on this article my previous assertion with a minor semantic correction, "...the closer the numbers are the less the oil relies on additive packages viscosity improvers (VI) to achieve the hot temp viscosity... so a 0w30 would need more additives to the base oil which expand and unravel with temp and increase viscosity at operating temp than a 10w30..." ... is correct, yes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Mohawk Posted February 25, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted February 25, 2015 Just remember regardless of what you use, clean fresh oil is better than dirty used oil ! Also remember what an old mechanic told me many years ago, you will do your engine much more harm running without oil than without fuel ! Well from the Amsoil article, 0w is just a little better than 5w, which has the same cold pumping criteria as 10w & 15w and the same characteristics just at different MINUS degrees C temperatures. 0w=3250cp@-30 where 5w,10w,15w all measure 3500cp @ -25C,-20C,-15C respectively. Or you could say that the 0w has a viscosity 7% lower than 5/10/15w. For reference water @20C = 1cp, at minus 10 its ice so a poor reference point. Will this protect your cold start engine 7% faster ? Probably not, only way to tell that would be to block an oil feed to the most remote part of an engine oil system & then measure time from starter press to oil pressure cut off by blocking switch. Lets not forget that engine designers take into account this lack of oil. by designing in oil galleries in the heads & other locations. Open any engine that has been standing for a few days & you will find these pockets, that are there to ensure critical bearings do NOT run dry ever. leave it for many months & the situation may be different. So who here runs their bike at below -10C ? You must be mad, but for most of the world -10C is a lower limit for normal use & most bike riders I know apart from working in their garage over winter would never ride if the temp was not at or above 0C just for convenience or preference, cold tyres & tarmac are no fun. Trust me I used to be a bike courier & losing a bike on black ice is no fun at all ! So if we assume that most people will NEVER start their bike below -10C then, then 10w (-20C) or 15w (-15C) are perfectly adequate as far as engine protection at cold start is concerned. Now to address Larry's points on the other end of the multigrade equation, 30w is more than acceptable for most uses again. remember the grading chart that Larry included a couple of posts back from his Honda manual, shows the air or cold engine temperature that you want to start your engine. There are again few places in the world where the ambient temperature would exceed 40C on a regular or constant basis, well anywhere you might want to ride ! As Larry's pressure tests show, every time the oil bypass valve opens, your engine is now pumping oil for no reason, so stick to a 5w or 10w30 unless you live somewhere where the ambient temperature you start your engine in exceeds -10C or +40C, I can't imagine there are many places where both would be exceeded in one day ! Remember YMMV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Mohawk Posted February 25, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted February 25, 2015 Oh and another thing. Synthetic is NO longer true, as only a couple of companies now make true synthetic oils. This web link is great debunk of the rip off we are faced with when we pay premium for what we think is synthetic due to OLD Judges, being useless & ruling that anything can be called synthetic, when we all expect a 100% man made product that never came out of a hole in the ground ! http://www.synlube.com/synthetic.htm Mobil-1 used to be, but alas no more. Strange they replace the synthetic with dino oil but the price stayed the same ! Like much in this world QUALITY has been sacrificed on the accountants alter by the marketing man ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer BusyLittleShop Posted February 25, 2015 Author Member Contributer Share Posted February 25, 2015 I picked up some M1 5w30 to test out based on your input... does the oil need to be motorcycle specific or will this work? M1 5w30 will work... the chief difference between Motorcycle Specific oil and Auto oil is in the additive package namely moly phosphorus and zinc listed below in PPM This chart also shows the real start up viscosity at 104F and the operating viscosity at 212F Your 5w30 starts at 56 and operates at 10... 56 will not flow enough to lubricate your engine whereas 10 is perfect Rob's 15w50 starts at 125 and operates at 17.4... 125 will not flow enough to lubricate his engine whereas 17.4 cost 6hp for the same wear rates Interesting to note the real viscosity numbers at start up between the 15w50 5w30 are huge at 69 but as the oils heat up to operating temps of 212F the difference in the viscosity numbers is only 7.4... it don't seem like much but it will cost 6hp in RWHP... enjoying less hp is one thing but as you and Rob both hit the starters your bearings are being lube quicker than his bearings and that is important because its generally agreed that the most wear happens during start up before warm up... at operating temps the wear rates even out... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer BusyLittleShop Posted February 26, 2015 Author Member Contributer Share Posted February 26, 2015 Oh and another thing. Synthetic is NO longer true, as only a couple of companies now make true synthetic oils. This web link is great debunk of the rip off we are faced with when we pay premium for what we think is synthetic due to OLD Judges, being useless & ruling that anything can be called synthetic, when we all expect a 100% man made product that never came out of a hole in the ground ! http://www.synlube.com/synthetic.htm Mobil-1 used to be, but alas no more. Strange they replace the synthetic with dino oil but the price stayed the same ! Like much in this world QUALITY has been sacrificed on the accountants alter by the marketing man ! Everything I read this article I'm reminded that debating true synthetics is like debating the true motorcycle... everyone agrees a motorcycle is a motor and two wheels but disagree on the execution... everyone agrees synthetics are oil molecules engineered to be uniform and consistent in size but disagree on the origins... but synthetics aren't for everyone... especially my customers who close their wallets with a torque wrench... they believe the old mineral with all its flaws works fine... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Mohawk Posted February 26, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted February 26, 2015 Hi Larry, well I'll be sticking with 10w30 as no perceived or proven worth in the lower W numbers from my PoV based on my area ambient temps. The lesser stretch from 10-30 compared to 0-30 means less additives & a more consistently stable oil. It is interesting that the multigrade 30's operate as 10 weight oils at 100C, but then I never looked at what a straight 30 weight oil operated like at 100C which is also 10 for those that may be interested. So as far as synthetics are concerned, they used to be Grade IV oils which are chemically created lubricants, but now almost all are Grade III dyno oils, yes some have been micro filtered to provide a uniform molecule size, but as Shell demonstrated the COST is more than stock oils, but much less than true synthetics, yet the price we the consumer pay has not reduced, even though what we are buying is fake by name i.e. its NOT synthetic, it is only highly refined ! So should be 25-30% cheaper, assuming its double the price of normal good quality dino oil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer BusyLittleShop Posted February 27, 2015 Author Member Contributer Share Posted February 27, 2015 Can I quote your use of 10w30??? like how many miles and what are your wear rates??? I'm surprised engine oil is as cheap as it is given the fact out of a 42 gallon barrel of crude only 0.5 of a gallon can be extracted... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Mohawk Posted February 27, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted February 27, 2015 Hi Larry, well feel free to quote me, but as to wear rates, unless I strip an engine when brand new & un run & then measure every bearing surface with a micrometer then do X miles & do it all again, I'd never know. Suffice to say that I've never had a bike problem caused by oil or oil related issues, but the most miles I ever put on a bike between oil changes is 3000miles. My last car I sold (Honda CR-V) was 13 years old, with 139K miles on it. I owned it from new & the oil was changed every 12k miles in accordance with the manufacturer recommendations. Run on 10w30 and boy could you tell the difference after an oil change, it felt like a new engine. Unfortunately to new owner told me it ate a piston at 142k miles :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer MadScientist Posted March 4, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted March 4, 2015 Sh*t an oil thread. Must resist but ... can't... I just have to comment on one thing - "The lesser stretch from 10-30 compared to 0-30 means less additives" Is no longer relevant if you are running PAO or ester based synthetics. The additives required to do this are viscosity index improvers (VI improvers, VIIs) which are not necessary given that the base stock of many oils can achieve the "stretch" without using any additives. I have heard on unimpeachable authority that some of the synthetic oils are labeled "worse" I.E. a 10W-40 that actually performs as a 0W-40 at low temperatures; because owners and operators will not buy the 0W for the same reasons you state above. The manufacturer is actually only running one production line since no VIIs are needed to achieve the 0W rating and the additive package (which has NO bearing on viscosity, commonly known as the DI package) is the same. Motor oil = base stock + VII (if needed) + DI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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