Advanced Rider Training, Why Don't You Take It?

[OutlawsJustice]

In my Free time I teach all types of motorsports at many levels, Dirt, Street, Track etc. I have been involved in Motorsports Education for 20 years and over the years I have noticed it has always been very difficult to get riders to participate or take any type of training once they learn how to ride, and many do not get training to learn how to ride in the first place either.

I know that some groups are more likely to search out rider training programs, advanced training programs and participate in training than others, ie. from my experience BMW riders tend to be represented in advanced riding classes way above the average and disproportionately in relation to the numbers of bikes sold and on the road. In some Classes they can account for almost 1/3 of the riders in advanced classes. (It does vary by region)

So my Question is to you the riders, Why do YOU not look for and participate in rider training, Advanced training etc. Why are you not trying to become a better rider and in turn a safer and more responsible rider? If you have taken a basic Rider course for a license or to learn why did you not follow up with more and advanced training?

I like to equate rider training to our formal education, completion of the Basic classes like the MSF BRC is about the same as graduating from the 3rd grade. You did not quite school after the third grade but most riders tend to be of the opinion that the 3rd grade level of rider education is enough. There is so much more out there that can make you a better rider, and in turn might actually even save your life, so what prevents you from wanting to be better? I know some of you think, "I am a good rider" if that is the case, good in comparison to who? Don't you want to be better? Even track day guys? If you are not mixing it up with Rossi you can be better, so again whats the deal?

I am looking for the honest opinions of those who have not taken training, maybe you thought about it but just never did? Again why? Advanced training?? There is so much out there what is holding you back?

[JakeWright]

I havent done any advanced riding because I'm not interested in doing it. If I was to go on a track or off road then yes I would do the training. I dont want to do it on the road because I am happy and feel safe with the way I ride already.

Now I'm not saying all of them are like this just the people I know and have spoken too are like this but.... The main thing that's putting me off taking my advanced riding/training is the ones I know that have done it always seem big headed so think they are right no matter what and their riding/driving is better then anyone else's.....then whilst they try to tell you how to ride they cross the white line and almost hit the car coming the opposite way!!

[Sweeper]

As a responsible husband and father I find it difficult to schedule time away. If your spring date in Nashville isn't too close to TMAC, I plan to attend. You can never learn too much.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Texfoto]

Rider training in the U.S. is very basic. I know because I have both a U.S. and UK license as the U.S. license won't transfer here.

The rider requirements to get a license in the UK is more difficult in that you have a more difficult parking lot test and an on road test. Did mine on the busy streets of north London.

Advanced training here is on the road I believe with an instructor critiquing you. You can also go to events where motorcycle police can critique your riding and safety aspect on the road.

I have experience riding in dirt and rocky areas, mostly trail and rough trail riding but no mx or sx riding. I also have road and touring experience. At this point it wouldn't hurt to have either dirt or road advanced training but it would be more for fun than anything else. I probably will do it but at the moment I'm fairly comfortable with the way I ride for the type of riding I do.

The most fun advanced training would be doing a track day which I have yet to do. I plan on this sometime in the near future but overall I think I would like to see more advanced training required in the beginning for new riders. Refreshers would be good but the thought of "advanced" training now after 13 years of riding is really not drawing me in if you know what I mean. In other words, the need doesn't seem that great for the return I would get. The argument that you are never too old to learn is true but as a doctor "practices" medicine I think I like to think the on-road experience contributes to something in my riding ability for the future.

[CornerCarver]

Great topic.

[SamW]

I did the Basic MSF course twice, once to get a license and once after my first wreck. I also did the Class Motorcycle School (Barber) once, which was good, but very limited one on one time with an instructor, but I did get more than most others in the class. I think Timing and Time/Distance is the hardest things to over come. Classes only happen once or twice a year unless you have a standing school at a track that has mutiple weekends a month. So unless that one or two class/es happens on a weekend that is free, it gets put off another year. Nashville is 5 hours away, so with time of the class, travel time, it burns up a whole weekend plus in exchange for how many hours of actual instruction and practice?

If there were a class at BMS down the road, I would be a lot more interested in attending.

I don't doubt I would learn a lot and be a better rider for taking the class, but the last few years I find it hard to actually get more than a morning or afternoon to ride on a few weekends, and I only live about 45 minutes from Shady Valley.

[Skids]

I've never understood folk not wanting to do extra training.

To be a professional in every profession I can think of, you do training to improve your knowledge and understanding of the what you are trying to do. So why is riding a high powered motorcycle on roads filled with blind and mindless idiots intent on killing us any different?

Why is it that we assume we know enough just because we've ridden for a few years and haven't needed training before that we must be ok?

Sure, there are "advanced" riders out there who couldn't ride a merry-go-round and there are equally folk out there who have never taken any training but seem to have a natural ability to just do it right. I'd suggest that the vast majority of us do not fit into either of those groups and would certainly benefit from training.

You need to look honestly at your own level of riding before assuming that what's available isn't for you. There are many varying levels of training available to suit all, or just about all. Over here in the UK the Police run "Bikesafe" courses which cover the next stage after passing your test and having ridden for a while. I try to do one of these as a refresher every couple of years and they are excellent value, the coppers love passing on good info and they're not the arseholes some might expect. Next comes IAM (Institute of Advanced Motorists) who run a huge bike training setup and RoSPA (Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents) who do the same. There are many levels to get to, with individual training and tests to pass following prescribed methods of riding to identify & avoid hazards. One particular course may not suit certain people (IAM didn't suit me) but that doesn't mean we should dismiss others that may well suit.

Track days and skills days are almost always excellent value. Sadly, one of the best has very recently ceased operating over here and I don't know what might fill the gap.

After that, we have some very advanced rider training, given by serving or ex-police riding instructors who cover police pursuit techniques (not how to catch scrotes but the techniques they use to safely ride at high speeds).

Amongst all of those, there is something for everyone to learn.

For me, it's not about being limited to a rigid format of riding. I prefer to learn and adapt to suit my circumstances but I've tried all of the above and have learned something invaluable from all of them. I'm not the best, fastest or most technically perfect rider out there, far far from it, but I accept that there is still a lot to learn and services out there that can assist me in this.

Apologies for the length of the reply but as an instructor of a different mode of transport, it's something close to my heart and on something as potentially dangerous as a motorcycle, in my humble opinion it is vital that for the sake of our families & friends, we do what we can to be safer.

[Earthshake]

The MSF courses (basic, intermediate or advanced) no longer appear to be offered in South Carolina. However, I did do a track school this year if that counts.

[gradus]

I've taken the MSF ARC (never took the BRC), a Total Control Clinic and a Cornerspeed class at VIR. Next on my list is to try a Cornerspin class, which is only 30-45 minutes from my house.

Anyone taken a dirt class that's designed to help with riding on the road?

[mk2davis]

Anyone taken a dirt class that's designed to help with riding on the road?

I have not, although I am very interested in taking the school that the Texas Tornado has. I imagine that he'll be focusing on that full time now?

As for the topic in general, I think some have a hard time accepting the limitations of their knowledge/skill/experience/whatever. This is in large part due to the fact that one does not become aware of there shortcoming until they REALLY need it. Until that moment, their level is "good enough". Much of this is reflected in the type of bike one chooses. It also happens to be a hidden benefit to riding a VFR. If you are judged by the company you keep, then I think I'll be doing all right!

I've taken the Lee Parks' Total Control course, and intend on going back when it becomes geographically desirable.

[YoshiHNS]

Time and location. They are only available once, maybe twice a year, and may be a good distance away. With vacation being used for work outside of work, the chances of being able to make one are slim to none.

[f3racer]

The MSF courses (basic, intermediate or advanced) no longer appear to be offered in South Carolina. However, I did do a track school this year if that counts.

http://www.msf-usa.org/Contact.aspx#state-OHthruTXhttp://www.msf-usa.org/Contact.aspx#state-OHthruTX

South Carolina

SC Technical College System

Rider Education Program

111 Executive Center Drive,

Columbia, SC 29210

www.scridered.org

RiderCourse Information:

(803) 896-5266

Mr. Joe Dawes

State Coordinator

Tel: (803) 896-5266

Cell: (803) 348-5110

FAX: (803) 896-5363

Email: DawesJ@sctechsystem.edu

[Cogswell]

Interesting topic.

I'm lucky enough to have a monthly Doc Wong clinic minutes from home. I began going casually 4 years ago and almost quit as I didn't think I was getting much out of it. Then a couple of the instructors quit and I was asked if I would begin helping with instruction. As I got more deeply involved not only did I quickly realize how much I didn't know (had I not been listening??) but also began getting a lot more out of it. It's not only improved my bike handling skills but also how I think about riding, - always wearing gear, riding in the rain, riding in groups, crash avoidance, etc. We even did a clinic on what to do (or not do) if a fellow rider crashes. Just going and talking with the others monthly keeps it fresh in mind. If this weren't nearby I might go to a track day here or there but that would be about it.

[Earthshake]

The MSF courses (basic, intermediate or advanced) no longer appear to be offered in South Carolina. However, I did do a track school this year if that counts.

http://www.msf-usa.org/Contact.aspx#state-OHthruTXhttp://www.msf-usa.org/Contact.aspx#state-OHthruTX

South Carolina

SC Technical College System

Rider Education Program

111 Executive Center Drive,

Columbia, SC 29210www.scridered.orgRiderCourse Information:(803) 896-5266

Mr. Joe Dawes

State Coordinator

Tel: (803) 896-5266

Cell: (803) 348-5110

FAX: (803) 896-5363

Email: DawesJ@sctechsystem.edu

Unfortunately, they haven't scheduled any classes for over a year.

[f3racer]

that sucks.

[Blesk]

I believe it's important to take classes of whatever sort every couple of years. Let's face it; we get sloppy. Skills need tightening up from time to time especially if all you do is commuting or if you only ride infrequently.

[slo1]

our local Track school is 1k per day.........not happening.... As usual, cost and convenience are the biggies, but alot of riders do not want to know how little they know IMHO ;)

[Voided76]

I've done a BRC/ARC and advanced rider/track day all free via the united states navy.

;)

I train whenever possible. free day off work hahaha

[OutlawsJustice]

I've done a BRC/ARC and advanced rider/track day all free via the united states navy.

;)

I train whenever possible. free day off work hahaha

Dont get better than that!

[Mohawk]

Well having been riding for a very Looooooong time & having been a motorcycle courier for a few years, I've pretty much seen it all on the road.

I've done a number of track days in the past so learned how to ride within my limits on track, I was faster/slower than some & my road bike was always in one piece at the end, unlike a lot of the track only bikes & riders.

I've done a couple of race schools for fun & had a great time, didn't learn anything I didn't already know. But last year got high fives from a TT racer (who was my instructor), for doing 110mph down craner curves at Donnington Park, superstock 600's only touch 120 down there & all the instructors reckon if a pupil manages 95 down that section then they are doing well. So he was dead chuffed to be out having fun with a capable rider

I've spoken to many advanced trained riders & likewise have never learned anything I didn't already know, so no real reason to do the training. But that is after a few years as a courier where you get a lifetimes riding equivalent compared to most people & I'm also a good self learner, I can read & adopt most things. One of the benefits of almost being a genius

If I was relatively new & wanted to improve my riding quickly, then a race school to learn machine handling near its/my limits safely, followed by an advanced road course would be the best way to go IMO.

Most advanced courses major on safety, but young people, males in particular, do NOT ride bikes because its safe they do it for the exact opposite reason. In the UK insurance companies give discounts for advanced riding certified riders, especially young ones, not sure how it works in USA.

[carlgustav]

I do train now, didn't when I first started riding decades ago ... I don't look at it as 'going to school' learning as in something that has to be done (when young), but as a fun weekend activity that is part of the hobby I love ... I've taken a basic MSF course (required to ride a bike on the local Arsenal & my first formal training experience), Ed Bargy's class, DiSalvos class, the Cornerspin school, a level 1 TC class, and have ridden numerous track days. I took the MSF course over 20 yrs ago, guess it doesn't count by now , the rest have been within the past 6 years when I decided to put some time/effort into my hobby . I believe that training, whatever you can afford, is not just a good thing, but fun too. Of course, if my track days cost $1000/day as posted above, I wouldn't bother with them as a way to get some training either . Track days to me are more of a way to safely practice various techniques, and not so much a formal training experience (outside of your 1st novice day anyway) ...

ACE

[Duc2V4]

I actually attended the same Total Control class as mk2Davis. I also took the CSBS many moons ago but along the way and a few years of little to no riding I "lost" a lot of what I had learned. The TC class was not only a great refresher for me but I did learn a few things that helped me improve almost immediately. I am also thinking I will take the Jason Pridmore STAR class sometime next year, when funds become more available. Always something new to learn.

BTW, I highly recommend the Total Control class, it was a great experience and the instructors (Lee himself was there too) are top notch!

Cheers

[luvtoleanit]

Have taken MSF basic and advanced. Have taken track days, both open days and schools, such as Keith Code's California Superbike school as an example.

I don't really go back to the track any more. I used to go 1-2 days a year but got tired of it. On a day off, I don't want to get up at 6am, for any reason. On a Saturday or Sunday, earliest I'm getting up is 9am. I'm not a morning person and every track day around here is 7am start time. I've spent the bulk of my 29 year working career working odd hours. In music, my start times were 12am to 4am, in my day job career I've worked plenty of maintenance windows which start at 12am. Even now, I work bankers hours, 9-5pm, and I live 1 mile from work so I get up around 8am every weekday and don't feel the least bit bad about the fact that I'm not a 5am/cup of java dude. To flip that for a track day to 6am, well at 7am I'm not enjoying myself. I even skip local rides, most of the time, because folks are scared of the heat and want to do stands up at 7am. To me visibility isn't optimum at that time of day, and I'm not real fond of hammering through corners at 7:30am on a piped bike waking people up along my routes.

I will say, that on a tour, such as Hog Tie, or something, I will get up early, because I'm always in the minority on start times, always outnumbered.

The tracks close to where I live are shit IMO. One is a go-cart track, very tight, very short track. The other, the pavement isn't maintained and it's so bad that the open road has better pavement. I do have a world class track and facility 3hrs from home but they want $500 a day to do a track day and they only offer it two times a year. And you have to break your mouse, clicking, to try and get in because it sells out in minutes.

Then there are the yahoos at the track. Guys showing up for a level 1/2 slot, with a brand new shiny supercab diesel, kitted out enclosed trailer, race bodyworked and prepped GSXR or the like, and on the track with something to prove or a chip on their shoulder. When the marshalls or control riders aren't paying attention they dive bomb underneath people and to me are as much of a threat or more so than the open road. Multiple track days in a row I'd be in a session with 6ft minimum, straights only, passing rules, only to get stuffed in a corner by some douche running a lap timer and using warmers in the pits. To me, there is a wannabe racer mentality going on at some tracks these days. I go to have fun, work on my skills, and generally enjoy myself. I don't need a lap timer because I know when I'm nailing corners better. I don't need warmers because I'm not racing. It's a track day, not a mad dash for the cash. I've been right behind riders "going for it" watching one take out the other. At the track you sign a waiver so if some dickhead takes me out, it's out of my own wallet to pay for his/her own mistake. I don't like that, at all, and would rather take my chances on my twisty routes. To me, they are safer than out of control riders at a buck twenty who have a point to prove.

[OutlawsJustice]

luvtoleanit

You are someone who has had a lot of training, Like amny of the folks on this forum. While I see the BMW guys in numer that are higher than normal. the same goes for VFR's. I seem to see more of them than other makes and models. Seems like riders of these bikes are different than the average rider.

[zupatun]

Took the BRC years ago...great...loved it. Considered the ARC but never did it...why?

I took Jason Pridmore's Star School beginner class over two days one year...next year I took a two day course from Star School as an Intermediate rider...It is not as structured as California Superbike School--especially the intermediate level. BUT--at ~$350 per day it is an upgrade over a trackday and moderately affordable.

I think the thing is that I got lots of track time, all the instruction and practice and advice I could handle over a couple days and the opportunity to push myself beyond what I thought I could do in a reasonably safe trackday environment. I looked at CSS, at Schwantz school and others...I think Cornerspeed or Penguin might be a little better than Pridmore's...but the one on one time with JP and his instructors was reallly good as well.

It fit what I needed -- some structure and plenty of seat-time. I have my notes, all the things I like to practice at the beginning of every riding season...to get back up to speed on the street. The BEST thing it gave me was an appropriate amount of fear for STREET riding compared to trackday riding. I am much more a Pu&&y on the street than on the track.

FWIW that's my two cents. I guess it depends on which skills you need to develop? I am a savvy and very aware street rider...what I got from STAR school was a big bump in capabilities that really make street riding seem to just slow down...I find myself with a much more capable mental budget...to put it into terms of CSS, after taking the trackday classes I have a few more dollars in my budget to spend on being aware of my street surroundings and not spending it on worring about things like shifting, steering, cornering, braking et al.

Matt