Rapidbike Evo And Racing Related Questions !

[CornPoweredV4]

11 hours ago, DannoXYZ said:

Ah, you've got the Racing Module with pre-loaded ignition-map.

Required octane-rating is for most-demanding areas of map, meaning WOT around highest VE/torque-peak where BMEP is highest and knock/detonation most likely. So if you stay under 50-70% throttle, you should be fine.

 

Do you have map-switching feature? You can then have one setting for pump petrol and another for higher-octane.

I do not have a map-switching feature. I assume by this you mean the YouTune controller? I just have the Rapidbike on my stock 07 VFR with stock exhaust (cept gutted mufflers) and stock O2 sensors.

 

It did feel a lot better on the ride to work this morning, despite traffic and crappy riding conditions. Excited to try it in more open/clear conditions.

[DannoXYZ]

It's toggle-switch you flip to select from 2 different maps.

https://rapidbike.us/products/map-switch-2

[CornPoweredV4]

Interesting. I don't think I'll end up using that for now as I don't really see a need for it on my end. I just ended up switching over to 93 octane gas and gave up the ethanol free.

 

Been riding around for about 200 miles and everything feels more powerful and very smooth. I'm liking my VFR a lot more now! I figure I'd ask here first before I hook my laptop up to it.

 

1) On the default RapidBike Racing config for 6th gens, is the ignition timing advanced as far as it will safely go already?

 

2) Is there any firmware I need to update on the module, or does it come with the latest updates already from the get-go?

 

3) Though everything is in general way smoother, I'm still experiencing some herky-jerkiness when transitioning from off throttle to on throttle and vice versa. I feel like this is due to the ECU cutting off fueling when the throttle is closed and that it could be likely resolved by adjusting the Engine Braking parameter on the Rapid Bike. Am I correct in thinking that decreasing the Engine Braking parameter will decrease the jerkiness when going from no throttle to some throttle?

[ShipFixer]

1.) I haven't looked in a while, but ignition timing is automatically tuned in advancement just like fueling.  There is a "base map" for the 6th gen and then it auto tunes off that +/- constantly.  The 6th gen has more ignition advance timing range than the 5th gen but there is a limit in the bike (forget, someone else knows what it is though).  "Probably" more true to say it's already advancing as much as it can within what it sees from the stock narrow band sensors.  I don't remember seeing my ignition map advanced all the way up to either the software limit or the bike limit.  You can adjust the limit just like you can shift the fuel map limit beyond +/-8 but it doesn't seem necessary.  Without wideband sensors really unlikely to be useful to shoot in the dark here.

 

2.). Last time I checked no.  The software for your PC is regularly updated though.  Seems like every time I turn that laptop on.

 

3.) If you mean full closed vs just closing it a bit, then no, you are slamming the butterfly valves closed and "see starter valve discussion" applies.  If you just mean there is more engine braking than you would like, then maybe?  
 

User experience gets hard because all of us will have different observations in proprioception.  Some people really can't stand the surge/lag in the stock ECU for emissions at cruise and love that the RBR finally fixes it.  Then a large number of people don't notice it at all and think "How Honda intended it" is perfection or something.

 

I can tell you if I shut my throttle a lot and open it with the engine clutched in, yeah, its rough.  But I also just don't do it that often and do use engine braking plenty without problems.  Whether that's 20 years of VFR adaptation on my part or a problem...dunno.  Zero difference before and after RBR on that front if that's what you're really asking.

 

Have not played with engine braking functions but answer is "maybe," someone else has.  I didnt find the settings in the software easy to understand at all.  A slipper clutch may also be the thing?

[ShipFixer]

One observation that might help - when I look at my map its about what I think it should be.  Plusses in the mid range and mid throttle region and then some minuses at high RPM and high throttle.  It's smoothing rather than just adding everywhere.

 

There are some discussions on FB where people are trying to essentially push the map "up" to get more something.  Like accept the changes and open the aperture, repeat.  This will get you past the recommended +/- quickly and probably just dump fuel, if that.

 

Unless you are seriously modding, the RBR is probably already giving you a really good answer and I would not overthink it.  I have a full exhaust, new plugs, and fresh injectors and I have left mine alone other than checking on it.

 

OBTW get your injectors cleaned if you haven't.  Worth it!

[CornPoweredV4]

Thank you for the very useful info, that clears up several things.

 

Regarding #3... I only ever notice the issue when I'm stuck going slow behind someone and I'm having to baaaarely keep the throttle cracked open. I end up oscillating from fully shut to barely cracked open with normal small movements of my hand, like from bumpy roads, and it can produce kind of a jerking back and forth motion, but it's really only an issue in this scenario.

 

I think my problem is just that the engine braking is a little more than I'd like... That sudden transition from no fueling at throttle-off to normal fueling when the throttle is slightly opened. My SV650 had a similar issue which I was able to eliminate through a TPS adjustment. What makes me think the engine braking setting might help is this snippet from the software manual:

 

Quote

 

Rapid Bike Racing is able to adjust the engine braking by managing the injection during deceleration
(throttle closed).
On most bikes the ECU closes completely the flow of fuel to the injectors until the engine speed is
below 3000-4000 rpm.
When the engine braking control is enabled, the Rapid Bike module handles the injectors giving a
certain amount of fuel, this will reduce the braking force generated by the engine.

 

Click on the button Enable/Disable to activate and deactivate the function. When enabled it is set
with the default value stored in the firmware (it is the same amount of fuel usually injected at idle).
Moving the cursor it is possible to increase (+) or reduce (-) the braking force of the engine during
cut-off. The default value set in the firmware is represented by the 0% and it already reduces the
engine braking.

 

 

If I understand this correctly, simply enabling the engine braking feature (not sure if it's on by default or not) and leaving it at 0% will still lessen the engine braking from stock, because it is now supplying the same amount of fuel as it would at idle if you fully close the throttle at any RPM, thus reducing the engine braking and make it "jerk" less because you're not decelerating as suddenly by cutting off fuel completely.

 

I'll hook up my laptop to the module when I get home from work and see what's going on. If it's not enabled, I will enable it and report if it improves the issue or not.

 

The RapidBike solved the common lean surging issue where the bike computer seemed to keep flopping from lean steady cruise mode to normal acceleration/fueling. That issue is eliminated after installing the module.

[ShipFixer]

In those scenarios I'm just on and off the clutch more probably, so don't notice.

 

I think it's probable that's what the engine braking adjustment in RBR should do, but the translation in both the GUI and the manual leave a lot to be desired so I haven't messed with it.  Somewhere between "reduce engine braking" and "slipper clutch" is where your answer lies if you want it to ride differently right around zero throttle.

 

The other thing to look through is how the throttle bodies and starter valves in VFRs interact.  Googling this and the other forums will give you lots of information on things that will affect your off-idle throttle behavior.  Some in the manual, some tribal lore.  Unlike some other things, closed throttle = closed throttle bodies, and the starter valves are providing the air at between zero and a few percent throttle.  

 

Some people attribute the abrupt nature of on and off throttle behavior in the VFR to that "fully closed" position in the butterflies. You will also see some discussions of re-balancing the starter valves from zeroed out balance across all four, to something like the 5th gen with 10 or 20mm difference Mg across different ones.  Some people believe doing that improved their off-throttle behavior so they balance theirs that way.

 

I like mine balanced as per the manual, I think the bike is overall smoother that way.  I've balanced them the other way(s) and it wasn't bad, just not better across RPM range, etc.  I don't discount the opinions of people specifically looking for the same thing you are and saying it helped them, though. 

[Mohawk]

Reducing the engine braking makes a real difference to smoothness of the off/on transition. I set it on mine & its great. 
 

Re the fuelling I have the latest Bosch wideband sensor & MTB & currently run it at 14.4/1 it runs really good & returns great MPG with no engine temp issues even in hot weather (up to 30c).  
 

YMMV 👍

[CornPoweredV4]

Yeah, it's all very highly subjective.

 

Ok so engine braking was already enabled and at 0% by default. I reduced it to -5% and went for a quick ride; the engine braking was decreased ever so slightly, but not by too much. I felt it could be decreased even more so I set it to -10% and went on another quick ride. This time it felt even better and that throttle-on throttle-off jerk was noticeably smoothed out, plus it felt better on my core/shoulders/back not having to resist the engine braking so much. To me, I think it really helped bring out the smooth nature of the V4 even more. However I may increase it by 1 or 2% because -10% might have taken away just a tad too much of my favored engine braking ability. These were very short in-town rides I went on to test it, so not a whole lot of variety of riding yet. Will have to see how it performs in the long-run.

 

It also feels like it smoothed out the nature of modulating the clutch at lower speeds

 

15 hours ago, ShipFixer said:

Starter valve stuff.

 

I will check them one day. I've read a lot of random tidbits and guides about starter valve issues, synching, etc. So far I've just basically buried my head in the sand about it and pretended like I didn't need to address them on mine, haha. The reality is I will likely check them/adjust them the next time I have the bike all opened up in the garage, but I'm not sure when that will be. Need to study up on them again.

 

7 hours ago, Mohawk said:

YMMV 👍

 

What do you have your engine braking setting set at? I know you have the My Tuning Bike/wideband, but I'm just curious.

[Mohawk]

Its been a long time since I set it, so will stick a computer on it tomorrow & find out. 

[vfrcapn]

22 hours ago, CornPoweredV4 said:

What do you have your engine braking setting set at? I know you have the My Tuning Bike/wideband, but I'm just curious.

 

19 hours ago, Mohawk said:

Its been a long time since I set it, so will stick a computer on it tomorrow & find out. 

 

Is the engine braking available on the EVO or just the Race unit? Emailed RB.us already, waiting to hear back.

[CornPoweredV4]

@vfrcapn It looks like for the Evo, it requires the YouTune module to use. For the Racing, you can use the feature without needing a YouTune, you just modify it with your Rapid Bike software and go. This is based off the manual provided to me by Yaman and his team a few days ago.

 

Quote

3.6.6 Engine braking control
WARNING: this feature is adjustable also for Rapid Bike Evo module, but it works exclusively
with Youtune controller installed.

 

Pg. 24 of Rapid Bike software manual

 

-10% still feels pretty good after riding around with it for a while, I may actually decrease it even further to -12% or so and see how that feels. It really did help improve the feel when cleanly going from throttle on to throttle off, however very small yet steady throttle openings are still quite snatchy and unpredictable. I can be holding it barely open and the bike will still jerk back and forth at times. I don't think it's my throttle or clutch technique because I can ride my SV smooth as butter without these kinds of issues.

 

Starting to think that the starter/idle air valves are the culprit of this unpredictable small throttle opening behavior like @ShipFixer is saying. Luckily that one seems like a lot cheaper of a fix, and seems to be only moderately tedious. Time to do some research I guess.

[Mohawk]

I just checked my engine braking control settings.

0.02ms, +99%,

disable engine braking management @2000rpm

 

 

[Grum]

On 12/13/2022 at 7:22 AM, CornPoweredV4 said:

Starting to think that the starter/idle air valves are the culprit of this unpredictable small throttle opening behavior like @ShipFixer is saying. Luckily that one seems like a lot cheaper of a fix, and seems to be only moderately tedious. Time to do some research I guess.

 

Seems to me a pointless waste of time doing all this Rapid Bike stuff Without checking the Starter Valves First!

Otherwise you end up trying to mask out a fundamental issue that needed addressing first.

 

I've not experienced the throttle issues you're talking about with any of the four Fuel Injected VFR's I've owned! Other than two of them needing minor SV synching.

[CornPoweredV4]

Agreed. Ordered a Carbtune Pro 4 to inspect the starter valves, didn't want to deal with making a messy diy liquid manometer. Should get here next week or so.

 

From what I read on 6th gens, they should be all balanced due to slight changes in exhaust routing from the 5th gens. Confirmed per the Japanese manual.

[Grum]

On 12/15/2022 at 6:43 AM, CornPoweredV4 said:

From what I read on 6th gens, they should be all balanced due to slight changes in exhaust routing from the 5th gens. Confirmed per the Japanese manual.

Yep 6gen balanced, 5gen is different.

 

Also check your throttle cable free play, and make sure there is no change in idle rpm when moving the steering to both extremes.

I find setting free play to a minimum without effecting the above helps with off idle throttle control, YMMV.

[Mohawk]

5th gen has defined balance, 6th gen has an equal balance. But I believe that a variation on the 5th gen theme is better using a lower figure for the cylinder with -20. 
 

A quick cost saving method is to use a twin gauge system. Calibrate both on the reference cylinder, then use the spare one to measure the other 3 cylinders. Mine revs so freely when set correctly 👍

 

 

[gropula]

I've just received the my tuning bike module with LSU 4.9 in the mail. I was wondering what's the best way to use a single O2 sensor with two O2 sensor bungs, because that's what I currently have. I will have another bung welded on where secondaries merge into one, but that's a part of an ongoing exhaust project. Does it make sense to run bike with one map for all cylinders with the wideband sensor on one bung for a while and build a map from those two cylinders and then move it to other bung and then build a map for other two cylinders. Then use those maps on a two maps for four cylinders configuration. How will the original ECU react to one narrowband being out of bungs or disconnected? Should I do the o2 eliminator hack with resistors and disable narrowbands in the rapid bike configuration? Or is it best to have a new bung welded in ASAP for the wideband and use the narrowbands in original bungs?

[CornPoweredV4]

On 12/14/2022 at 1:43 PM, CornPoweredV4 said:

Agreed. Ordered a Carbtune Pro 4 to inspect the starter valves, didn't want to deal with making a messy diy liquid manometer. Should get here next week or so.

 

From what I read on 6th gens, they should be all balanced due to slight changes in exhaust routing from the 5th gens. Confirmed per the Japanese manual.

 

Just a follow up on this but I finally sync'd my starter valves to be balanced with cyl #4 and cleaned/rejuvenated my K&N air filter this past weekend. Bike is running much smoother now at low RPMs and throttle openings. VTEC transition also feels smoother, but that may be placebo. Who knows.