Braking Question

[rigger4343]

Quick breaking question for you guys here....

Been reading up some on riding skills, not a new rider here but always looking to get better. My question is related to the linked brakes on a 6th gen VFR...

I have not had mine very long and one thing I wanted to do was really do some practice stopping on the bike. Some really hard breaking and some not so hard breaking.

I have normally always used a little rear break along with my front breaks but what I am wondering is if I really need to on the linked system?

Lets use this as an example....

Cruising at 60mph and a cow jumps out in front of me! With the bike having linked breaks, should I just hammer down on the front only knowing that there is some rear break being applied or should I continue doing as I always have and apply some rear break as well?

And again, the same situation but with a passenger this time. Same cow, same speeds.

Just in case you are wondering, my bike is a non-ABS bike.

[gmtech94]

Exactly the same both brakes together and firm

[landlover]

Hope this is right. Say for example front and rear have 4 pistons each to apply pressure to the rotor. When the rear brake is pressed all four pistons are applying pressure to the rotor on the rear but on the front only two pistons are applying pressure to the rotor. Pull the front brake lever and four pistons are applying pressure to the front rotor but only two on the rear rotor. Think thats how it works.

Exactly the same both brakes together and firm

+1

[Bad Boy]

Yes use linked brakes just like unlinked brakes for maximum stopping. Both together. With brakes used together the linking kind of cancels each other out so they behave similarly to unlinked.

Linked or not for maximum stopping power and control it is better to progressively apply the front brakes. Like 1/2 force for a half second and then harder as the weight shifts to the front tire. If you hammer down too quickly the front tire is more likely to skid because less weight in on the front tire at first. A half second later the weight shifts to the front wheel and the forks compress. Once the forks are compressed and most of the bike's weight in on the front wheel you have much more stopping power without skidding. There is then little weight on the rear tire so it does not have to be pressed as hard as the front. If the front starts to skid ease up a bit. Maximum braking occurs without skidding. A locked up tire has less braking force than a rolling tire plus you loose control of steering. Same for having a passenger except you can apply a little more force before skidding since there is a little more weight on the tires. But be prepared to have passenger pressing hard on your back.

[rigger4343]

Thanks guys. Pretty much what I was thinking too but I just thought I would ask from those of you that have ridden on linked brakes much longer than I have.

[Dedofnite]

Rigger,

I have had LBS for almost 20 years now, and as I said in another post, Honda did a great job getting this system right. The proportioning valve seems to work and keeps things very balanced in most situations. Momentum and inertia being what they are, though, the system can be overwhelmed. You can still do a stoppie with LBS bikes, which means zero traction at the rear. I usually use both brakes unless I'm just being lazy, or using my foot for something else, (sticking it in my mouth?), just to keep that motor skill sharp. The fine motor adjustment of being able to release rear pressure as you increase front is very important in an emergency maneuver. More so if you are two up; lots of rear traction initially, and in a micro second very little, if any, when that passenger hits your back, (assuming they are still on the bike...). The LBS reduces the need to modulate as much in normal stopping situations; you still have to control the physics in a real "hold your breath-lose your bladder" event. Very wise to find a clean parking lot and practice just that on any bike you ride on the street, over and over, until you feel confident you can brake to maximum effect. Every bike is different in some way, the worst time to learn that is in an actual maximum braking emergency. We always recommended that kind of practice at the end of riding classes. Sadly, most riders, and drivers, never do it.

As was stated above, both and squeeze progressively is usually best in normal braking situations.

Of course, if you are blessed with ABS, life is much easier.

I have learned by the "trial and error" method, also. More than once. Hope that helps, and ride well!

Kevin

[vulgar1]

Use both at the same time. Firm and constant. Practice is your friend here. Empty parking lot and some cones would really give you chance to see what she can do. Start out moderate and work your way up in braking firmness until you know how quickly you can brake. You can feel when you are close to the limits. Good luck.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[spud786]

You should, brake instantly without locking it up , while looking for an exit hole if needed to avoid the target ,all depends on the amount of time.

keep in mind the 1 second it takes to reach for the brakes you've already traveled 40 ft, learn to ride with a finger or 2 covered and be proficient, and you'll last longer than the average mc career, just in reaction time alone.

[CornerCarver]

Some very good responses here and of course more braking power can be applied with both front and rear brakes being utilized.

I especially like the recommendations of riding with the brake lever covered when in areas where unanticipated things can occur and most importantly practice finding that point on your bike/tire/pad/lever travel set up when the front suspension has loaded enough and the tire has deformed enough and the lever has traveled enough to apply more pressure on the front brake. This will vary depending on tire (tire hot/cold dry/wet wear) and the surface you are on as much as anything else.

The linked brakes can still get a bike hauled down in a hurry and IIRC Motorcyclists back of the magazine test data still had the 5G with top 5 or 6 in tested braking distance as late as 2008 or so.

On track days you can feel the brakes starting to fade after the first 15 minutes or so of repeated hard usage.

They say a picture is worth 1,000 words and this one is on the Lee Parks Total Control range but it does indicate that linked brakes work well even with poor form like I am exhibiting here.

[Monk]

I agree with using both brakes as if they weren't linked.........

I want to add something else I've learned, and that is when practicing for quick stops, start pulling in the "Clutch" at the same time. When a panic stop comes up I had a tendency not to let off the throttle(back in the 60's), and found out that trying to brake while still having the throttle on doesn't help with getting it wooo'd down very quick.

I keep my foot brake adjusted so my toe will hover over the brake at all times(about a 1/2 inch) and not be uncomfortable, and ride with one or two fingers on the front brake at all times as well.

If you do this fine, but there may be peeps that read this, that need this info.

[wagzhp]

Some very good responses here and of course more braking power can be applied with both front and rear brakes being utilized.

I especially like the recommendations of riding with the brake lever covered when in areas where unanticipated things can occur and most importantly practice finding that point on your bike/tire/pad/lever travel set up when the front suspension has loaded enough and the tire has deformed enough and the lever has traveled enough to apply more pressure on the front brake. This will vary depending on tire (tire hot/cold dry/wet wear) and the surface you are on as much as anything else.

The linked brakes can still get a bike hauled down in a hurry and IIRC Motorcyclists back of the magazine test data still had the 5G with top 5 or 6 in tested braking distance as late as 2008 or so.

On track days you can feel the brakes starting to fade after the first 15 minutes or so of repeated hard usage.

They say a picture is worth 1,000 words and this one is on the Lee Parks Total Control range but it does indicate that linked brakes work well even with poor form like I am exhibiting here.

Yep, keeping one or two fingers covering the front brake when the potential for an emergency stop is eminent goes a long way. Practicing emergency braking is a critical excersize that all riders should perform at least once a year. Once you are raising the rear tire like that, you know you are doing it right. The key is working up to it gradually to get a sence of how much pressure is required on the controls, and getting a sence for what that level of decelleration feels like. And then repeating it enough times that you can duplicate the result at will. (And for goodness sake, do these drills on a controlled surface, where there won't be some unsuspecting driver running you over.) I remember my first stopie looked very much like that, both feet came off the pegs and my eyes got so big they filled the view port in my helmet!

[Lorne]

Two corrections needed.

1998-2009 VFR800s use 3 per caliper. The rear brake pedal operates the outer 2 pistons on the rear caliber, and 1 on each front ('98-'01) or only 1 on the left front (VTec series). It does so whether or not the bike is moving.

On '98-'01 the front lever operates the outer 2 pistons on each front caliber plus the centre of the rear caliper.

On '02-'09 the front operates all 3 right side pistons plus the outer 2 of the left, as well as the centre rear piston.

But the front brake only applies force to the rear when VFR is moving.

Say for example front and rear have 4 pistons each to apply pressure to the rotor. When the rear brake is pressed all four pistons are applying pressure to the rotor on the rear but on the front only two pistons are applying pressure to the rotor. Pull the front brake lever and four pistons are applying pressure to the front rotor but only two on the rear rotor.

Totally false.

Yes use linked brakes just like unlinked brakes for maximum stopping. With brakes used together the linking kind of cancels each other out so they behave similarly to unlinked.

[The mailman]

I thought I was proficient at braking on my '97 and practiced regularly in an empty parking lot. I would brake hard right up until I thought the wheel would lock. * * * Then I got my ABS '07. * * * WOW! You can just hammer the hell out of them and you stop like yesterday. You better be holding on when you try this. I'm amazed at how much stopping power it has and have to admit to being embarrassed at how good I thought I was on my non-ABS bike. I can't imagine not having it now. + the fact that I might kill myself on a non-ABS model. I guess that is a prime example of electro-nannying that can diminish your abilities.

[Cogswell]

I thought I was proficient at braking on my '97 and practiced regularly in an empty parking lot. I would brake hard right up until I thought the wheel would lock. * * * Then I got my ABS '07. * * * WOW! You can just hammer the hell out of them and you stop like yesterday. You better be holding on when you try this. I'm amazed at how much stopping power it has and have to admit to being embarrassed at how good I thought I was on my non-ABS bike. I can't imagine not having it now. + the fact that I might kill myself on a non-ABS model. I guess that is a prime example of electro-nannying that can diminish your abilities.

I must confess that while I'm not a fan of all the electronics that have crept in to cars and now coming in to bikes, the one exception I make is for ABS brakes. I love having them for all the same reasons.

[zupatun]

If you haven't taken a riding class like MSF or Lee Parks or one at a trackday that practices emergency braking, I would HIGHLY recommend it especially if you haven't been riding long. Emergency braking skills have saved me, my bike gear and other people several times. It is worth the time effort and money to practice under the guidance of experts and getting closer to their skill level in a short intense period of a class day(s).

Plus besides being a safer more skilled rider less likely to hurt yourself and others, you can practice and wow the. Crowds with your new found skills on the street or track!

I've read Ienatch, Kode's twiust the wrist and others but having a guru watch you' make a couple suggestions and run through the drills is the fastest best use of my money I have found. Period. No one can convince me otherwise.

Matt

[MaxSwell]

Motorcycle Consumer News publishes several time a year a list of bikes, specs, and some top ten statistics. For VFRs (fifth gens I believe) VFRs tied for 8th best 60 to 0 distances. 108.something feet. MC press consider 120 feet or less excellent braking.

There are very few bikes that can out-brake a linked-brake VFR. And I've experienced the benefit on several occasions. Shortly followed by a change of underwear. No skid marks on the road; however there were skid marks elsewhere.

On covering the brake lever, I always ride with two fingers covering the brake lever. And also two fingers for the clutch. I initially had a hard time with learning the VFR brakes. In a panic-type situation, all fingers used for front brake was instant lockup. The full-hand-grab-automatic-panic-reaction is quite a powerful response that needs to be controlled with practice. Two fingers are plenty for me to get the best stops. And the automatic-response with the clutch two-fingered has seemed to help also, though that is more an impression than a studied fact.