Member Contributer Switchblade Posted April 8, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted April 8, 2014 Reads like a oil thread !!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer CornerCarver Posted April 8, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted April 8, 2014 I wear a helmet when I am going to be riding above 35-40 mph...I do not wear a helmet when running a repaired/rebuilt bike up and down my street for a shakedown. I have lived in states where it is legal to not wear a helmet. I currently live in a mandatory helmet state. I understand the risks associated with not wearing a helmet. I think it should be mandatory for anyone under the age of 21 or anyone who has had their motorcycle endorsement for less than 2 years. I think that most of you who would chastise me for not wearing a helmet to run around the corner to the store in the summer would also probably be very uncomfortable splitting lanes in traffic. Back on the topic of the cherry-picked statistical representation by the NYT in the original post, I am quite certain that over the past decade as more people purchase a bike that either do not know how to ride or have had very little riding experience many years ago that the mortality rate of all motorcyclists would obviously increase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer FJ12Ryder Posted April 8, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted April 8, 2014 Are you saying splitting lanes in traffic is also stupid? Ah, no I see. You're saying that people who think riding without helmets are overly cautious, ergo they would feel uncomfortable doing something vaguely risky like splitting traffic. Pretty dumb comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted April 8, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted April 8, 2014 I have to sit at Deals Gap every year and listen to this argument. To me its crazy not to wear a helmet BUT we live in America and we were founded on such freedoms ... SO WHAT TYPE OF OIL DO YOU USE ? That usually ends the conversation with me ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer JZH Posted April 8, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted April 8, 2014 Back on the topic of the cherry-picked statistical representation by the NYT in the original post, I am quite certain that over the past decade as more people purchase a bike that either do not know how to ride or have had very little riding experience many years ago that the mortality rate of all motorcyclists would obviously increase. On the topic? What a concept! The problem with cherry picking data is that the complete data set could actually prove that "Fewer Helmets = No Statistical Difference in Deaths". Not quite the same headline, that... Given that the southern states by and large did not repeal their helmet laws (based on a cursory review of Google images of "helmet law map" and "motorcycle deaths by state"), and yet still have the highest rates of motorcyclist deaths, I would not be surprised if the "more deaths" part of the NY Times headline wasn't applicable across the board. Perhaps it is my suspicious mind, but I tend to distrust people who make arguments using statistics. Ciao, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rush2112 Posted April 8, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted April 8, 2014 Back on the topic of the cherry-picked statistical representation by the NYT in the original post, I am quite certain that over the past decade as more people purchase a bike that either do not know how to ride or have had very little riding experience many years ago that the mortality rate of all motorcyclists would obviously increase. On the topic? What a concept! The problem with cherry picking data is that the complete data set could actually prove that "Fewer Helmets = No Statistical Difference in Deaths". Not quite the same headline, that... Given that the southern states by and large did not repeal their helmet laws (based on a cursory review of Google images of "helmet law map" and "motorcycle deaths by state"), and yet still have the highest rates of motorcyclist deaths, I would not be surprised if the "more deaths" part of the NY Times headline wasn't applicable across the board. Perhaps it is my suspicious mind, but I tend to distrust people who make arguments using statistics. Ciao, Obviously, the author used the data that most supported their position... however, I think your making a big assumption that the omitted data doesn't support it or refutes it. CC, to your point I think for that to be true more people proportionally would have had to enter the motorcycling community in the past decade than in the past and at a faster rate than old timers dying off. I don't think motorcycle sales are burning up any records or significantly increasing their market share against autos. I have to go back and re-read the article. I didn't read it that closely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer FJ12Ryder Posted April 8, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted April 8, 2014 As attributed to Mark Twain: "Figures often beguile me, particularly when I have the arranging of them myself; in which case the remark attributed to Disraeli would often apply with justice and force: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rush2112 Posted April 8, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted April 8, 2014 Ok, first message, total number of motor vehicle deaths have decreased in the past ~10 yrs Two, total number of motorcycle deaths have increased during the same period... some of the increase was linked to more bike registration, but not all of it can be explained by reg numbers... looking at the chart 2006 and 2012 have the same total MC fatalities, but there is a short term increasing trend. Third, the percentage of motorcycle fatalities compared to all vehicles has been rising since1997.... uh, that kinda means that cars & trucks are getting safer and the same inherent dangers of motorcycles still exist and haven't been addressed... one of those being car & truck drivers. This slide pisses me off, if the total number of MC fatalities is the same for 2006 & 2012 and the total number of all fatalities goes down then the percentage of MC fatalities has to go up... its Math stupid... a better measure would be the number of motorcycle accidents and the number of MC fatalities. If this ratio changes after a helmet law change than a correlation may be drawn showing the change in fatality risk. The Florida slides... I don't know what to say... "The number of motorcycle deaths in Florida started to climb steeply after the law changed" Really, just prior to the law change the graph shows the rate of deaths climbing at an even steeper rate.... I propose an alternative hypothesis, the change in helmet law allowed riders to better see the massive influx of old retirees before they hit them thereby reducing the rate of increase in fatalities... BTW... I always wear a helmet, even when I ride in states without a helmet law. I lived in SC and Florida and still wore a helmet. The only time I didn't is when I gave it to a passenger to ensure their noggin' was protected since they were trusting me with their life. Also, I have to resist the urge to jump on a bike and give it a quick test shake down after working on it... I always gear up because in my opinion this is one time when I know a possible mechanical issue may arise and I want to be prepared if it does... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer CornerCarver Posted April 8, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted April 8, 2014 Are you saying splitting lanes in traffic is also stupid? Ah, no I see. You're saying that people who think riding without helmets are overly cautious, ergo they would feel uncomfortable doing something vaguely risky like splitting traffic. Pretty dumb comment. Perhaps it is a dumb comment as you say but the sanctimonious "I never ride without a helmet, anyone who does is an idiot and should be removed from the gene pool." thought process leads to similar choices about lane splitting, speeding etc... I am saying that I am cognizant of the potentially catastrophic results and I should be able to choose when and if I should or shouldn't ride without a helmet. Just as many of you choose each day whether or not to split lanes (which I am all for and wish they had a better PR campaign - call it "Lane Sharing" and get it approved here in Georgia) or whether you choose to speed or blindly obey all traffic laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer JZH Posted April 8, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted April 8, 2014 Back on the topic of the cherry-picked statistical representation by the NYT in the original post, I am quite certain that over the past decade as more people purchase a bike that either do not know how to ride or have had very little riding experience many years ago that the mortality rate of all motorcyclists would obviously increase. On the topic? What a concept! The problem with cherry picking data is that the complete data set could actually prove that "Fewer Helmets = No Statistical Difference in Deaths". Not quite the same headline, that... Given that the southern states by and large did not repeal their helmet laws (based on a cursory review of Google images of "helmet law map" and "motorcycle deaths by state"), and yet still have the highest rates of motorcyclist deaths, I would not be surprised if the "more deaths" part of the NY Times headline wasn't applicable across the board. Perhaps it is my suspicious mind, but I tend to distrust people who make arguments using statistics. Obviously, the author used the data that most supported their position... however, I think your making a big assumption that the omitted data doesn't support it or refutes it. Of course, but having been around long enough to have seen a few classic statistical manipulations, I think it is an assumption I am entitled to make. Another quote attributed to Twain (but probably not coined by him): "Figures don't lie, but liars do figure." I don't understand why anyone would want to ride without a helmet, but then I don't understand why anyone would want to ride a two-wheeled tractor. Still, I would not support making cruiser-riding illegal... Ciao, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer JeffInFranklinTN Posted April 9, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted April 9, 2014 I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but the NYT did an interactive visual on its website a few days ago with recent U.S. statistics concerning motorcycle fatalities in states that have repealed helmet laws. Just out of curiousity, why do you think they omitted to mention what happened to motorcycle fatalities in states that had not repealed their helmet laws? Ciao, They didn't omit it, but it wasn't the focus of the article. "But through the same years, motorcycle deaths [nationally] were climbing. Some of the increase was linked to more registrations, but more bikers didn’t account for all of it." It's just typical spin. Gotta hunt for the non-spun facts. Though it's common sense... people who wear helmets tend to survive more often than those that don't. I'd be curious to see how blood alcohol ties in to this... The BAC of people wearing helmets in a crash and the BAC of those NOT wearing a helmet. Tennessee recently tried to repeal it's helmet law. The new law would allow a motorcyclist to ride without a helmet only if these requirements were met. Must have had a motorcycle license for at least two years, be 25 yrs of age and have must have $200,000.00 in medical coverage and $100,000.00 in liability coverage. It did not pass however and I, for one, am glad it didn't. I moved to TN 20 years ago from Illinois which doesn't have a helmet law. At the time I was living in Illinios I didn't think much about wearing a helmet simply because there wasn't a law enforcing it. I did wear one whenever I took rides away from town. (an open face one at that) Now that I'm in a state that has a helmet law I've come to appreciate it. Abate chapters and cruiser types will say "They can't see" or "They can't hear" when wearing an open face or a full on full face helmet. I can tell you that at highway speeds that is just not the case for me. The wind noise is deafening and my eyes will tear up badly from the wind if I'm not wearing a full face helmet. Most cruisers have wind screens I suppose, but I do not have wind screens on the Magnas. I feel much safer and more aware of my surroundings with my helmet on. To add to Yokel's comment....I'm thinking that those who choose to wear a helmet are more responsible and would tend NOT to drink and ride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer landlover Posted April 9, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted April 9, 2014 Reads like a oil thread !!!! Yes, but if one person puts on a helmet that would not of otherwise then I think it is worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer JZH Posted April 9, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted April 9, 2014 Reads like a oil thread !!!! Yes, but if one person puts on a helmet that would not of otherwise then I think it is worth it. Seriously? Dodgy statistics are fine, so long as it makes one person put on a helmet? Think of the children! Ciao, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted April 9, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted April 9, 2014 Reads like a oil thread !!!! Yes, but if one person puts on a helmet that would not of otherwise then I think it is worth it. Seriously? Dodgy statistics are fine, so long as it makes one person put on a helmet? Think of the children! Ciao, No grand children !! Not trying to make fun of the subject with the "oil thread" thing and I know it's a serious matter. Always get some interesting reading from you guys . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerritt Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 A few years ago I was in Pennsylvania a guy told me the insurance companies fought for the no helmet law because its cheaper to bury someone than to rehabilitate them. I also like the comments from people in cages saying why are you wearing all the gear are expecting to get into an accident, to which I reply why are you wearing a seatbelt are you planning on getting into an accident Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Dutchy Posted April 9, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted April 9, 2014 Reads like a oil thread !!!! Yes, but if one person puts on a helmet that would not of otherwise then I think it is worth it. And we have another convert!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer landlover Posted April 9, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted April 9, 2014 Reads like a oil thread !!!! Yes, but if one person puts on a helmet that would not of otherwise then I think it is worth it. Seriously? Dodgy statistics are fine, so long as it makes one person put on a helmet? Think of the children! Ciao, Figure, we don't have these threads all the time and on this riding technique index it's says it's hot so why not put or say in some way "hey wear a helmet"! "stupid is as is stupid does! Am no rocket scientist but I know unexpected things happen in life and thats why I wear gear. Two or three second insurance policy that's the way I look at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Belfry Posted April 9, 2014 Author Member Contributer Share Posted April 9, 2014 And we have another convert!!!!!! post-3578-0-23858400-1396872961.jpg He took the expression "brain bucket" a bit too literally ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VFR4Lee Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 A few years ago I was in Pennsylvania a guy told me the insurance companies fought for the no helmet law because its cheaper to bury someone than to rehabilitate them. I also like the comments from people in cages saying why are you wearing all the gear are expecting to get into an accident, to which I reply why are you wearing a seatbelt are you planning on getting into an accident You're in good hands... Like a good neighbor... Have you met life today... Cash if you die, cash if you don't... Sometimes I hate insurance. Like when I have to pay the freaking bill. Then there's this example of caring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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