Member Contributer MadScientist Posted April 3, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted April 3, 2014 As far as robustness of the injector coil - I was warned not to do this with 12v for fear of damaging coils. I should have specified to just tap the 9v, you will only hear the injector actuate once when the voltage is applied. No need to have it connected for more than a fraction of a second. I did see someone leave a 9v connected to the injector for 20-30 seconds on a cbr6 and the injector got hot, but it continued to work properly after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer MadScientist Posted April 3, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted April 3, 2014 Snuck out while the kids were playing. I definitely have intermitten connectivity at best at pin 5. I was even able to fiddle with the wire right at the pin and once or twice get the pump to come on. I guess I need to figure out how to pull that wire and re-crimp it in that socket. Now I am wondering how well the rest of the connections are at the pins. I wonder if a similar issue is what was causing the bike to only try and run on one cylinder. Yeah, that right there is going to be a right bitch. Was this accident at low speed or high? Never know what will happen with those kind of forces. You can test them all individually, or just start popping pins out. Best do that when the kids aren't around, when trying to non-destructively dissect oem connectors my vocabulary tends to degenerate back to my military days... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 I don't remember off hand how fast he was going. I want to say 40-60 mph, somewhere in there. It was a high side, rear subframe was warped. The kids are spending this weekend with their mom. I may go buy a pin puller tomorrow. You wouldn't by any chance have a pinout diagram of the connector would you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer MadScientist Posted April 3, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted April 3, 2014 If you want to test a large number of them and you think the fuel injection system might be suspect, start with the wires running to the fuel injection harness. This is the big roundish grey connector above your left side radiator. Wire colors generally remain the same at both ends of the main harness, but arm yourself with a wiring diagram. Also, construct yourself a jumper so you dont have to deal with stretching out your test leads to both ends of the harness. A piece of solid core 14 awg wire works really well for this. Cut a piece about 6" long and strip the last inch on both sides, bend this into a U shape. You will need to first identify one wire to serve as your reference that you know has good conductivity. Subsequent measurements are made by looping the jumper from the good connection to the other pins in the harness. Likewise on the other end, stick one of your probes into the reference pin and you will only move the other probe between wires to be tested. This allows you greater dexterity in being able to manipulate the harness to test for intermittent faults as you don't have to worry about balancing a multimeter and holding leads in at opposite ends of the wiring harness. As far as a pinout, all the information is on the wiring diagram in the service manual, the pins are read looking at the "wire" side of the connector, I.E. from pin 1 in the top left to pin 22 in the bottom right. I know the scan of this section is not the best though. The only pins in the "other" ecu connector you need to really worry about are the grey (11), yellow (12) and white/yellow (22) wires. The numbers coincide with the pins at the "grey" ecu connector, the other ends are connected to the cam pulse generator and the ignition pulse generator, respectively. The grey side of the ECU is generally "input" signals and the black is "output". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 That's great, I will start on that tomorrow after I drop the kids off at school. If I can find a pin puller at a radio shack or somewhere, I will just pull the pins and insure they are crimped well. If not, then I will be a little more methodical about it. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 After the kids got to bed, I have been able to play with it some more. It wasn't an intermitten connection, I just didn't have my probe wire inserted very well. I got the wires inserted well, and the connection is very consistent. But the pump is still not coming on. I can manually short that wire to ground, and the pump comes on. So, for some reason, the ecu is not pulling that pin low to allow current to flow and actuate the relay. Back to doing more research. Going to go over the service manual and see what it says about why the ecu would disable the fuel cut relay. On page 582, section 21-24, the last 3 sentences says this happens when the ecu stops the pump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer MadScientist Posted April 4, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted April 4, 2014 Back to the relay connection, are you sure it is the ECU not pulling the Brown/Black to ground? With the key on and kill switch on, unplug the connector to the relay. What is the voltage at between the Brown/Black and the Black/White wires at the connection? For that matter, what is the voltage between both of the Black/White wires and chassis? Any chance you can borrow and ECU from someone nearby? You've seen it run before, so chances are something didn't happen to the ecu while sitting there. It's possible that while moving it around or while working on the other issue that the movements knocked an already damaged component loose from the ecu. I've never opened an ECU before, but chances are that the whole assembly is filled with potting material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 With the relay removed Between one black/white and chassis: 12.4v Other black/white and chassis: 11.5v Between the brown/black and the black/white: 12.4v. I have a probe wire inserted into pin 5 at the ecu connector as shown in the picture. If I short this to ground on the battery terminal with the relay installed and the switch on, the fuel pump runs. Which I would think means that the circuit is fine up until that point, wouldn't it? And I don't know of anyone I could borrow one from. I don't really think anything would be wrong with the ecu, I am just thinking there is something wrong somewhere else on the bike that is making the ecu think the fuel pump needs to be shut off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer MadScientist Posted April 4, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted April 4, 2014 Well...wtf... and you swapped the relay. If you have 12.4 volts between brown and black/brown, the relay should activate without you grounding it. Do yourself a favor and clean up the chassis ground with some fine emery paper, this might be an issue, and it's also good practice. Also make sure pin 1 (green wire) on the grey ecu connector is making good contact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misspent Youth Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 Any chance of this being a corroded ground at the Big Orange Plug? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 Well...wtf... and you swapped the relay. If you have 12.4 volts between brown and black/brown, the relay should activate without you grounding it. Do yourself a favor and clean up the chassis ground with some fine emery paper, this might be an issue, and it's also good practice. Also make sure pin 1 (green wire) on the grey ecu connector is making good contact. Cleaned up the chassis ground, didn't make a difference. Pin 1 at the grey connector has a good connection to ground. But between pin 1 on the grey connector and pin 5 on the black connector I have about 1.35 kOhms with the switch off. Complete open circuit with the switch on. Funny thing I did notice. If I have pin 5 grounded when I turn the switch on and then remove my grounding probe as soon as the fuel pump starts to prime, it will sometimes continue to prime the normal amount of time and then switch off. But not always. Usually it will shut off as soon as I remove the lead. I can't seem to get any consistency out of what it's doing. Any chance of this being a corroded ground at the Big Orange Plug? To what big orange plug are you referring? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Ranger77 Posted April 4, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted April 4, 2014 Here's my vids. Something may help you. https://www.youtube.com/user/Rangerscott69/videos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misspent Youth Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 Well...wtf... and you swapped the relay. If you have 12.4 volts between brown and black/brown, the relay should activate without you grounding it. Do yourself a favor and clean up the chassis ground with some fine emery paper, this might be an issue, and it's also good practice. Also make sure pin 1 (green wire) on the grey ecu connector is making good contact. Cleaned up the chassis ground, didn't make a difference. Pin 1 at the grey connector has a good connection to ground. But between pin 1 on the grey connector and pin 5 on the black connector I have about 1.35 kOhms with the switch off. Complete open circuit with the switch on. Funny thing I did notice. If I have pin 5 grounded when I turn the switch on and then remove my grounding probe as soon as the fuel pump starts to prime, it will sometimes continue to prime the normal amount of time and then switch off. But not always. Usually it will shut off as soon as I remove the lead. I can't seem to get any consistency out of what it's doing. Any chance of this being a corroded ground at the Big Orange Plug? To what big orange plug are you referring? There's a multi-pin common ground block through which many, many things are grounded, including, I believe, the ECU. Search around for "orange" and "ground" and you should find a ton of good posts. The pins are many and small, and they get corroded so lose their ground. Some try to clean the pins and reuse, others clip the block and common them all together (messy and possibly not that effective). The block on the 5th gen is located on the left side, to the left of the Stator connection to the r/r, under a covering of black tape. The threads I'm talking about should show the location. Of course, your problem could be trauma outfall from the accident, but the grounding block is a source of similar problems for many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer MadScientist Posted April 5, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted April 5, 2014 I took a few pics for you while I was working today. Had to use a small screw driver to pry up on the sides to remove the plug "cap". If it looks ok, just a spray of Deoxit and some dielectric grease then close it up and re-tape. If the contacts are visibly corroded or wires are loose, you may need clean it up more intensively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 OK, finally got back around to fiddling with this some more. This may be a little long, but it will catch up on my progress so far. I checked the orange plug and everything looked great with it. I realized I never checked for error codes since the ecm decided to shut off the fuel pump. Checked it, and got codes 12, 13, 14, and 15. Those are the codes for all four injectors. So fiddling around, I decided to use a 9v battery to actuate the injector plungers. #3 was fine, but the others were stuck, and hesitated for a second or so before clicking opens. That would explain why it was trying to run on 1 cylinder earlier. So I cleared the fault codes, bolted everything back together, and nothing. Fuel pump still isn't running. For shits and grins, I tied ecm pin 5 to ground to force the fuel pump to run, and tried to start it. And she fired right up. So something is still telling the ecm to shut off the fuel pump, and I have no idea what it could be. At this point, I am sorely tempted to just jumper ecm pin 5 to ground and ride it until I can figure out what the problem is. That way, the fuel pump will just be running as long as the switch is on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rush2112 Posted May 1, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted May 1, 2014 OK, finally got back around to fiddling with this some more. This may be a little long, but it will catch up on my progress so far. I checked the orange plug and everything looked great with it. I realized I never checked for error codes since the ecm decided to shut off the fuel pump. Checked it, and got codes 12, 13, 14, and 15. Those are the codes for all four injectors. So fiddling around, I decided to use a 9v battery to actuate the injector plungers. #3 was fine, but the others were stuck, and hesitated for a second or so before clicking opens. That would explain why it was trying to run on 1 cylinder earlier. So I cleared the fault codes, bolted everything back together, and nothing. Fuel pump still isn't running. For shits and grins, I tied ecm pin 5 to ground to force the fuel pump to run, and tried to start it. And she fired right up. So something is still telling the ecm to shut off the fuel pump, and I have no idea what it could be. At this point, I am sorely tempted to just jumper ecm pin 5 to ground and ride it until I can figure out what the problem is. That way, the fuel pump will just be running as long as the switch is on. Have you checked the tip over sensor? I believe that shuts down the fuel pump in the event of an accident to help avoid fire...If you addressed this earlier I apologize. I'm on my phone and didn't go back through the thread Sent from my SCH-I200 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer JZH Posted May 2, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted May 2, 2014 Well, until your last post, I was thinking you had the same problem I had, documented in this thread. The solution was nothing more than to tap on the injectors, whilst the engine was cranking, thus freeing them up. (These were professionally cleaned injectors, but they had sat for a few months before I installed them.) Good luck... Ciao, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Have you checked the tip over sensor? I believe that shuts down the fuel pump in the event of an accident to help avoid fire... If you addressed this earlier I apologize. I'm on my phone and didn't go back through the thread Sent from my SCH-I200 using Tapatalk Yeah, it's not the bank angle sensor. Checked it a long time ago and it's fine. That doesn't shut off the fuel pump via the ecm, it actually breaks power to the fuel pump via a relay. Whatever is going on here is causing the ecm to shut off the fuel pump. Everything else in the fuel pump circuit is working perfectly. I have not touched the bike since the weekend after my previous post. My theory right now is that it is an issue with wiring, can't think of anything else. But my friend has a cousin who is a Honda mechanic, and is coming to visit next month. He is going to come give us a hand with it while he is in town, so I am just going to hold off until then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beece Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 OK, after reading this whole thread, I think I might have some useful information to add. I know there has not been a post for over a year, but I also don't see that there was a resolution. Some years ago my '99 VFR developed FI faults while I was in the middle of doing the 16k service. I added a PowerCommander during that process but removed it during troubleshooting (this is important). The faults were several and not exactly repeatable, only adding to the difficulty in narrowing down the problem. This was a long time ago, so I don't have full recall of the sequence of events. Suffice it to say that I cried uncle and took the bike to the local Honda dealer. Four days and many technician hours later, the techs at that dealer gave up. They couldn't figure it out and wanted to give me back my bike. Instead I had it towed to the dealer in the City (San Francisco). There at the dealer was a tech that had worked for them for over 30 years, starting out as a janitor, learning about the bikes and working his way into the lead tech position. He said he could solve the problem for 3 hours labor cost ($270 at the time). I agreed and went home. By the time I got home, less than a 30 minute drive, there was a message on my phone waiting for me. The tech called to say my bike was running and I could come pick it up. Here's the punchline: What he did was to close the female (receptacle) pins for the ECM so they made better contact with the male pins. The female pins had spread out over time, and probably lots of vibration, and had gone high resistance or completely lost all contact. The tech said it was a fairly common problem and the solution was to use a small pair of tweezers to close, or bend, the contacts on the female side. I sold that bike last year and, in an evil bit of irony for the new owner, the issue resurfaced. He called me, described the problem and I immediately remembered the issue from at least eight years before. I told him to try the connector adjustment and he called me back the next day to tell me everything was back to normal. Why I bring this up is because iI believe it is a strong possibility that this may be the problem you are dealing with. It's certainly worth a look. Also, I now have a lower mileage '98 VFR800 that has some issues with clogged injectors from old gas and sitting in a storage space for about the last 8 years. This thread has been very helpful in understanding what I'm up against. Guess I'll be removing throttle bodies tomorrow . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer SCguy Posted July 9, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted July 9, 2015 Also, I now have a lower mileage '98 VFR800 that has some issues with clogged injectors from old gas and sitting in a storage space for about the last 8 years. This thread has been very helpful in understanding what I'm up against. Guess I'll be removing throttle bodies tomorrow . . . I had a very similar situation. I sent my injectors to InjectorRX in Texas. They did a fantastic job cleaning and testing them for a reasonable price. 3 of my 4 injectors wouldn't spray at all, now the bike runs great Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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