dynajohn Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 There has been some confusion over whether the 2012/ 2013 VFR 1200F with traction control still has the power restriction in 1st & 2nd gear that the 2010/2011 models had. I am attaching a dyno sheet on my 2013 F model which shows the restriction is still there. The blue traces (run file 037) is a 2nd gear full power run WITHOUT a zbomb installed. The red traces (run file 039) is a 2nd gear full power run WITH a zbomb installed. The dyno runs shown were made with the TC disabled. We made 2 more dyno runs (with & without the zbomb) with the TC enabled and the dyno traces were identical. I assume the 2012 model with TC has the same restrictions since the ECU part number is the same for the 2012 & 2013 1200F models. Hope this clears up any lingering confusion over whether Honda took the power limitation out of the 2012/2013 traction control models. John VFR 1200 dyno test ZBomb.bmp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volfy Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 Thanks for posting the chart. I've always wondered about the '12+ curves. It does look like the restrictions are still there but considerably softer than on the '10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auron Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 Can anyone comment on the traction control system? You don't really hear them bragging about it so I'm wondering how complex it is or if it's just a gimmick. Does it work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lshark Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 are you stock except for the z bomb ?? no re mapping (pc v or Zfi ?? air filter and pipe stock?? nice #s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dynajohn Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 are you stock except for the z bomb ?? no re mapping (pc v or Zfi ?? air filter and pipe stock?? nice #s No the bike has a PC5, Leo Vinci slip on & cat removed from stock header & K&N air filter. It made 159 HP & 91 ft/pounds torque after dyno tuning during the same dyno session on the final 5th gear pull. The posted dyno graphs are for full throttle 2nd gear runs with & without a zbomb. The posted 2nd gear dyno chart was after dyno tuning. The difference in peak HP & TQ for the posted chart and the higher peak numbers in 5th gear is due to the stock ECU restricting output at the peak in the lower gears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dynajohn Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 Can anyone comment on the traction control system? You don't really hear them bragging about it so I'm wondering how complex it is or if it's just a gimmick. Does it work? I would like to know the answer to that question myself. I have not had the TC engage when leaned over in a corner. It has engaged when I was on the bike hard in 1st gear. As soon as the front wheel lifts off the ground the TC cuts power. It is not gradual or gentle about it either, it is like hitting the rev limiter. The TC control apparently sees the difference in wheel speeds when the front wheel lifts off and interprets it as a loss of traction. Hopefully someone with a 2012/2013 model here has had more experience with a real loss of traction situation and can answer more fully. The only bike I have to compare the TC on the VFR to is my 2012 ZX14R. The VFR TC is on when you start the bike and can be manually turned off. The ZX14R has a whole range of power & traction settings. Much more sophisticated system. Honda is way behind the curve here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auron Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Yikes! Doesn't sound like something you'd want to experiment with either!?!?! Hard to believe they would even bother putting something on that would potentially cause a crash rather than prevent one. Anybody willing to take one for the team> lol? What's worse and even bordering shameful is they have intricate knowledge about the technology because of their racebikes, which they so proudly claim trickles down into their streetbikes. Maybe I will just get a 2010 model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lshark Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 i really don't get the whole TC hype...sure on a racetrack it is useful, but for most street riders i think it is useless...i've spun the rear tire a couple of times but it's no reason to bring in the fun police, it was very controllable and not dangerous ....and as far as wheelie control....that must really sucks...why aren't you on a Gold Wing ?? all of my bikes have TC, it's built into my right wrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer EhViffer Posted March 17, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted March 17, 2014 Can anyone comment on the traction control system? You don't really hear them bragging about it so I'm wondering how complex it is or if it's just a gimmick. Does it work? My wife and I just south of North Bay were cruising along nicely when we hit a patch of gravel road. No warning, no signs and gravel for over 20km's. She has the 2012 with TC and I have the 2010 without. Now this could be she is a way better rider but as I was behind her she was just nicely cruising through this stuff and my bike was sliding all over the place. Could be a bunch of factors - the 80 pound weight difference between us? After we finally got off the road we talked about it and she said the bike seemed to correct itself, she said it was like a little stutter in the rear wheel, she got wheel slide and then the bike would straighten up. Other then rider skill (quite possible) we thought it was her TC kicking in. As for me I needed 20 minutes to relax - it was like driving on marbles! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dynajohn Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 Can anyone comment on the traction control system? You don't really hear them bragging about it so I'm wondering how complex it is or if it's just a gimmick. Does it work? My wife and I just south of North Bay were cruising along nicely when we hit a patch of gravel road. No warning, no signs and gravel for over 20km's. She has the 2012 with TC and I have the 2010 without. Now this could be she is a way better rider but as I was behind her she was just nicely cruising through this stuff and my bike was sliding all over the place. Could be a bunch of factors - the 80 pound weight difference between us? After we finally got off the road we talked about it and she said the bike seemed to correct itself, she said it was like a little stutter in the rear wheel, she got wheel slide and then the bike would straighten up. Other then rider skill (quite possible) we thought it was her TC kicking in. As for me I needed 20 minutes to relax - it was like driving on marbles! That is good information. I had hoped the TC system was more subtle in reaction than it was when I activated it with the bike straight up when the front wheel lifted off. It is situations as described above or when losing traction while leaned over in a corner where a good TC system might save you from a crash. I don't object to the bike having TC as long as I can switch it off. Actually Honda was the first motorcycle mfg I am aware of to offer TC & anti lock brakes in the early 1990's on the ST 1100. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volfy Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 A good traction control system doesn't subtract from the fun factor. Dial in properly, it can enhance the riding experience. The Aprilia APRC is such a system. It let;s you dial in as much - or as little - intervention as you see fit. The new paradigm these days is "the only thing more fun than too much power... is too much power you are not afraid to use". Powering out of a corner with the throttle pinned and the rear tire chirping just enough to test the extreme boundary of traction and then keeping power ON just shy of breaching it... now that's a power junkie's nirvana. I know some of you are going to say you can do that with your own right wrist. I myself am not as talented. And if the top motorcycle racers depend on electronic aides to help them manage traction, I don't feel so terribly bad. At the end of the day - whether it's at the track or out carving twistiest - the most fun for me is actually arriving home and hugging my little girl when she comes out to greet me. Whatever help I can employ to guarantee that is a big ol' plus in my book. YMMV. I only wish Honda would build a system like it, or Aprilia builds a sport tourer I like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer luvtoleanit Posted March 17, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted March 17, 2014 The top motorcycle rider's only depend on it because their respective factory makes them, it's required. If you go talk to most riders (exception being Jorge Lorenzo) they'd prefer to be without it as it hinders their right wrist. The overwhelming majority of TC on a GP bike is performance, not for safety. Only a small amount of it is for safety, and that pertains to a 270HP 350lb Grand Prix bike, which is a world apart from a VFR or any production bike for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dynajohn Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 A good traction control system doesn't subtract from the fun factor. Dial in properly, it can enhance the riding experience. The Aprilia APRC is such a system. It let;s you dial in as much - or as little - intervention as you see fit. The new paradigm these days is "the only thing more fun than too much power... is too much power you are not afraid to use". Powering out of a corner with the throttle pinned and the rear tire chirping just enough to test the extreme boundary of traction and then keeping power ON just shy of breaching it... now that's a power junkie's nirvana. I know some of you are going to say you can do that with your own right wrist. I myself am not as talented. And if the top motorcycle racers depend on electronic aides to help them manage traction, I don't feel so terribly bad. At the end of the day - whether it's at the track or out carving twistiest - the most fun for me is actually arriving home and hugging my little girl when she comes out to greet me. Whatever help I can employ to guarantee that is a big ol' plus in my book. YMMV. I only wish Honda would build a system like it, or Aprilia builds a sport tourer I like. +1 in my book Volfy. Modern sport & sport touring bikes will handle and stop better than over 98% of the riders on them. Only a fraction of 1 percent of riders can ride at they're bikes limit and then only safely on a closed course. On public roads if you throw in road debris, animals and cagers in blind corners I will take all the help I can get from modern electronics. I am long past the arrogance of my youth when I thought my riding skills were equal to my overinflated youthful ego. Some of my friends who did not learn that lesson are no longer with us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lshark Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 you really can't be doing that stuff on the street...i might break the tire loose out of a turn if i was one gear lower, but that is just a little over the top. at least where i do the majority of my riding....i'm still looking for the perfect road where i can hang the back end out thru a turn AND keep my drivers license....this is a big reason that i like a V-4 on the street...all that nice midrange power Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer hvfrdave Posted March 17, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted March 17, 2014 Why is it though, that the traction control on the VFR 1200 is so basic, and why is it that the power is still restricted in 1st & 2nd gear, just goes to show how basic it is, when Honda feel they still need to reduce the power in 1st & 2nd gear. Can't understand Honda's thinking, they threaten to pull out of Motogp, if Dorna ban open electronics, and they give us such a basic system that it is not worth having, the Aprilia system is far superior, as is the Bazzaz system, which has been out for 4 or 5 years, also the traction control on the new ZZR1400 works has it should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dynajohn Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 Why is it though, that the traction control on the VFR 1200 is so basic, and why is it that the power is still restricted in 1st & 2nd gear, just goes to show how basic it is, when Honda feel they still need to reduce the power in 1st & 2nd gear. Can't understand Honda's thinking, they threaten to pull out of Motogp, if Dorna ban open electronics, and they give us such a basic system that it is not worth having, the Aprilia system is far superior, as is the Bazzaz system, which has been out for 4 or 5 years, also the traction control on the new ZZR1400 works has it should. Dave, I can't figure out what is going on at Honda. They put a basic on/off TC system on the VFR 1200 which was supposed to be a halo bike and no TC system on the 1000RR which deserves a real system like BMW or Apprilia. They have changed from the industry innovator into a overly conservative company. This change into a overly cautious company didn't happen recently, it has been going on for a long time. Mr. Honda must be turning over in his grave. I can live with my 2013 VFR1200 because I can correct what I knew were the limitations I wouldn't be satisfied with. Thanks to you guys I knew what to expect before purchasing it. The bike brakes and handles well enough for my skill level in retirement and will make a decent sport touring mount. I bought it because it is unique and I don't see one every time I go down the road. If I really want an adrenalin rush I take my ZX14R out. The Brock Davidson built ZX14R makes 215 to 224 RWHP depending on whether I run pump gas or VP MR12 race gas. That's enough thrill for this old man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer luvtoleanit Posted March 18, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted March 18, 2014 Why is it though, that the traction control on the VFR 1200 is so basic, and why is it that the power is still restricted in 1st & 2nd gear, just goes to show how basic it is, when Honda feel they still need to reduce the power in 1st & 2nd gear. Can't understand Honda's thinking, they threaten to pull out of Motogp, if Dorna ban open electronics, and they give us such a basic system that it is not worth having, the Aprilia system is far superior, as is the Bazzaz system, which has been out for 4 or 5 years, also the traction control on the new ZZR1400 works has it should. The other thing, or misconception about electronics on bikes is people think it will save them from oil, coolant, gravel, what have you. It won't, at least in most cases. You've got 2 wheels only. If I run through oil I'm going down with or without traction control. All it does is cut power to the rear wheel. If that front wheel hits something slick I'm taking a trip into the litter no matter what. The marketing benefits of TC are night and day compared to reality. It's for lap times mostly. It will cut your times down on a track day but out in the real world, the reality is the hype and hurrah of what they say is grossly overstated. The best traction control is good tires, and a careful right wrist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lshark Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Why is it though, that the traction control on the VFR 1200 is so basic, and why is it that the power is still restricted in 1st & 2nd gear, just goes to show how basic it is, when Honda feel they still need to reduce the power in 1st & 2nd gear. Can't understand Honda's thinking, they threaten to pull out of Motogp, if Dorna ban open electronics, and they give us such a basic system that it is not worth having, the Aprilia system is far superior, as is the Bazzaz system, which has been out for 4 or 5 years, also the traction control on the new ZZR1400 works has it should. The other thing, or misconception about electronics on bikes is people think it will save them from oil, coolant, gravel, what have you. It won't, at least in most cases. You've got 2 wheels only. If I run through oil I'm going down with or without traction control. All it does is cut power to the rear wheel. If that front wheel hits something slick I'm taking a trip into the litter no matter what. The marketing benefits of TC are night and day compared to reality. It's for lap times mostly. It will cut your times down on a track day but out in the real world, the reality is the hype and hurrah of what they say is grossly overstated. The best traction control is good tires, and a careful right wrist. couldn't agree more !!!! i think it is total hype Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auron Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Yeah, I'm sure ABS is just hype too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer deltaboxii Posted March 19, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted March 19, 2014 @ DynaJohn- Chad from Commonwealth just tuned my '07 VFR last week after I installed a PC5 and Leos. That guy knows his stuff and he has the dyno to help get the power curve as good as it can be. The bike runs so much better now that he worked his magic. I hope you are enjoying your 1200 as much as I am my 800 after he got it sorted out. Once he sends me my dyno graph I will post mine up. Obviously will be pretty wimpy compared to the 1200s but the curve looks great now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer luvtoleanit Posted March 19, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted March 19, 2014 Yeah, I'm sure ABS is just hype too Funny, when I've read tests at the track the journos stop quicker without it. Something about actually knowing how to use the front brake and the rear as well. Marketed benefits > Reality benefits I've had it come on the 1200 almost causing me to wreck. If there was a way to disable it I would. LBS, sure, no issues, ABS, I'd prefer the bike without it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted March 19, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted March 19, 2014 Yeah, I'm sure ABS is just hype too Funny, when I've read tests at the track the journos stop quicker without it. Something about actually knowing how to use the front brake and the rear as well. Marketed benefits > Reality benefits I've had it come on the 1200 almost causing me to wreck. If there was a way to disable it I would. LBS, sure, no issues, ABS, I'd prefer the bike without it. Unplug the pump and see . Without the ABS pump it should use hand and foot pressure input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auron Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 On the track I don't see much worth of either, especially ABS. On the street, given the choice I think all riders can benefit regardless of skill. The weight, complexity and cost it adds, that a different story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dynajohn Posted March 20, 2014 Author Share Posted March 20, 2014 @ DynaJohn- Chad from Commonwealth just tuned my '07 VFR last week after I installed a PC5 and Leos. That guy knows his stuff and he has the dyno to help get the power curve as good as it can be. The bike runs so much better now that he worked his magic. I hope you are enjoying your 1200 as much as I am my 800 after he got it sorted out. Once he sends me my dyno graph I will post mine up. Obviously will be pretty wimpy compared to the 1200s but the curve looks great now! Always glad to hear that a shop I recommended worked out. Look forward to seeing the dyno chart on your 800. Chad builds & tunes a lot of exotic modified Italian bikes (Ducati, MV Agusta) as well as Suzuki's & Kawasakis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 Apart from the usefullness of ABS and TC (both are usefull to me, the ABS much more than the TC) it's just plain fun to use them. Since fun is the most important reason to ride a motorcycle instead of a car, that's enough for me to be happy to have ABS and am looking forward to having TC on my next bike. However, I wished as well it wasn't so basic on the VFR. But in my opinion the power restriction through the mapping under 6krpm in 1st & 2nd isn't related to the TC/no TC. It's because of emission regulations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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