Member Contributer PorradaVFR Posted March 5, 2014 Author Member Contributer Share Posted March 5, 2014 You think stop lights have something to do with this? That seems really negligible to me. If it helps, I use mine solely for commuting, never stop basically (first at every light/stopsign here in SoCal and first to leave every light/stop sign, and I split lanes the whole way = as close to non-stop as you can get, really) and I still get 30-32 MPG. My suspicions were raised because I've had other VFRs and they all had better mileage and the dyno results confirm that she is indeed running materially rich...still I'm getting close to either popping in a Power Commander to lean her out or frankly just accepting that Dusty's a thirsty girl - the shop has done right by me chasing this gremlin down but a few hundred in all I know is that she's running rich with no mechanical issue found. At this point it's good money after bad chasing the mystery and overall the verdict on PC seems pretty positive. I'll likely just opt for that route and get back to riding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGREGT Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 I have the Power Commander 5 on mine (along with Staintunes.) Didn't change my MPG at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 I went on a long ride this weekend cruising at 80-85 most of the way. That's about 5.5-6k rpms in 6th gear. On the way back there was some, let's say, more spirited riding. At the end of the ~190 mile trip my tank was empty and I calculated just over 40mpg. I have a 2Bros. slip on and no power commander. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer PorradaVFR Posted March 15, 2014 Author Member Contributer Share Posted March 15, 2014 Ok guys, got and scanned the dyno info. Does this say anything obvious? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Havagan Posted March 15, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted March 15, 2014 Does that say 75 HP max???!!! Should be 100+. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted March 15, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted March 15, 2014 Tells me you have a problem .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer ecn Posted March 15, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted March 15, 2014 Hi Al, My bike has about 60HP based on following you the other day and that dyno showing yours at 75HP I guess we really get screwed in California when it comes to handing out HP Duc2V4 back at post #3 of this thread called out a another interesting thread...in post #2 of that thread from Chris L noted that Pair Reed valves can get crusty and let fuel leek back into the air box. Yours had sat for a few years so maybe they're messed up. Sticking in a Toys R US marble in the hose leading to each pair valve is not that hard (I was even able to do it) and is easily reversed. You noted separately that the dyno showed your rich condition went away with the air box open with no air filter...not sure what this indicates but maybe the VFR scientists can read meaning from it. Also, I found my ECU worked better after blasting the pins of the 2 main connector terminals with contact cleaner/lubricant from home depot. It even masked a couple of messed up wires for about 6 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer PorradaVFR Posted March 15, 2014 Author Member Contributer Share Posted March 15, 2014 Does that say 75 HP max???!!! Should be 100+. I was curious about that too...what I'd love would be a dyno chart of the same vintage to compare. The ones I found showed far flatter FAR across the range...and leaner too (12+). I'll also check the manual to find the ECU leads and inspect them. Thanks guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer ecn Posted March 15, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted March 15, 2014 Hi Al, In this thread http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php/topic/76673-poor-fuel-economy-2009-vfr-800/page-2 Chris L says: One thing that tends to affect older, higher mileage bikes is crud building up on the PAIR valves. The PAIR valves are designed to let air from the airbox into the exhaust manifold to burn unburnt petrol, and they are one way, metal reed valves. Trouble is that over time & distance, crud builds up, the valves leak backwards, and the exhaust gasses can get into the airbox, screwing up the mixture and generally dropping the mileage figures quite drastically. My theory is that when your bikes rich fuel condition corrected with the air box cover and filter removed , it may have been attributable to it counter acting the "backwards pair valve leak" of exhaust gasses into the air box that Chris mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Havagan Posted March 15, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted March 15, 2014 Al -- did I mention that I did the de-PAIR on my bike when I had the fueling fixed? Pulling the PAIR stuff can't hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Cogswell Posted March 17, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted March 17, 2014 What I find interesting is the temporary spike in the AFR to near normal about where VTEC is engaged. That might be explained by the extra air coming in to each cylinder before the ECU can change the AFR back to what it thinks is correct. I couldn't find anything in the thread about having verified that the MAP sensor is operating properly. Can't say for sure, but If out of spec it might account for the AFR curve from the dyno. There's a test routine in the troubleshooting section of chapter 5 (fuel system) of the FSM for it. You'd need an ohm meter and a hand operated vacuum pump but it's easy to get to by lifting the tank. It would also be good while in there to check that all vacuum hoses are in good condition and properly connected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGREGT Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 I spoke to my Honda tech this weekend about my low-ish MPG while I was getting new tires balanced. His first thought was the fuel pressure regulator. I brought up a bad thermostat, and he said "yeah...that COULD do it, but you'd notice your temp not getting up to normal (210 F or so) temps as well, and if that's not happening, I'd say the thermostat is OK." A couple of other techs chimed in with it most likely being a sensor of some sort that's bad, or a series of bad sensors (fuel, MAP, etc) that together might bring me up a few MPGs, but their thoughts were if only any one sensor is bad it would only be losing me 1-3 MPG at the most. I brought up that a few folks here get/used to get 200 miles per tank when the bike was new, and some are even now down to 160-ish a tank on stock bikes (which mine is not.) I told him my best was exactly 176 per tank, at which point I was pushing it two miles to the gas station (not a pleasant story.) He said frequently folks don't fill the tank to the very top as well. Specs show the tank holds 5.81 gallons when dry. I'll have to check, but I don't think I've been putting that much in. I'm really tempted to carry my 1 gallon plastic gas tank in my topcase when I get close, run it dry, pour in the one gallon, and see if I can put 4.81 gallons more on top of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spud786 Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 even bikes with stuck open thermos are getting to 210 degrees, but they normally wont hold above 170 on open road for long above 40 degree temps. Another test is to cold start the bike, wait till you see the first water temp read, and take off, should be above 150 degree and climbing by one mile. if its taking a lot longer than that, its suspect in operation, some are not stuck fully open but half open, this would be very confusing. another key is falling below 159 degree on open road in sub freezing temps. I can only vouch the 6th gen will hold a little more than 5.3 gallon, there may be 2 cups of fuel left more than that. That's about as close as you'd want to get. several years ago, when my bike was running hard compound tires, and before the U.S fuel change, Id see mid to high 40's on open road travel in the deep very hot summer(best was about 47 mpg and included post 100 mph, the same conditions with softer compound tires and present day fuel, about 43 mpg at best on open road. Riding mostly 40 mph narrow back roads, along with full flogging zero to post 100mph I see around 38 mpg on average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGREGT Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 So....they only way to check or change a map on a PC5 is with a PC laptop?? So as a Mac-only guy, now I need to buy a PC to see what map I have currently (I got it used so I have no idea) or to change it??!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer PorradaVFR Posted March 20, 2014 Author Member Contributer Share Posted March 20, 2014 So the latest on this was I finally pinged my local dealership with whom I've been generally happy with. They very kindly agreed to run some diagnostics for me and only to charge if/when they find and fix something. They suspected MAP or some other sensor(s) or perhaps the fuel pressure regulator and figured the other (non-Honda factory) shop may have simply been unable to chase it down. They also commented that running the bike up to temp might result in different readings than cold and since I was not there in person I cannot speak to whether all the dyno runs and prior checks were done hot or not. I'm awaiting their word and will update accordingly. Wish me luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Duc2V4 Posted March 20, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted March 20, 2014 So....they only way to check or change a map on a PC5 is with a PC laptop?? So as a Mac-only guy, now I need to buy a PC to see what map I have currently (I got it used so I have no idea) or to change it??!! Pretty much, unless you can run Windows on your Mac i.e. 'Parallels' or other. If you want, ride on over and I can extract the map for you, but even then this does not tell you what map you are running, it will only show you what the map settings are. I just recently downloaded a map for a buddy's '02 that had Leo Vince exhaust, we just grabbed an "off the shelf" map from Dynojet and it made a world of difference from what his had loaded in originally. Long story there, but he was not sure what the shop had used so I was able to reload a known setup and he was much happier now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Havagan Posted March 21, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted March 21, 2014 Wish me luck! VAYA CON DIOS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGREGT Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 If you want, ride on over and I can extract the map for you, but even then this does not tell you what map you are running, it will only show you what the map settings are. The maps aren't named, it sounds like? So all you're seeing is air/fuel/gear settings? I guess we could write down what's currently in there, in case we needed to re-load it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Duc2V4 Posted March 21, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted March 21, 2014 If you want, ride on over and I can extract the map for you, but even then this does not tell you what map you are running, it will only show you what the map settings are. The maps aren't named, it sounds like? So all you're seeing is air/fuel/gear settings? I guess we could write down what's currently in there, in case we needed to re-load it? They are named but not if you retrieve them, all you can do is name it what you want at that point and save it to your computer, so you can always reload what you had. If you look at the files in the download section you'll see the name of the file, but once it's loaded the name doesn't stay with the file, at least that's what I have found. However, In addition to being able to reload what you had, the PCV can have two maps loaded and with a contact closure you can toggle between them, provided you don't have an Auto Tune module connected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer dawson Posted March 21, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted March 21, 2014 Was that dyno run done with the O2 sensors connected and the temp above 76 C? My 09 sounds a lot like yours. I rarely see 200 km (125 mi?) to a tank and haven't since new. I thought the injectors may flow more fuel than the ECU was programmed for, which would cause it to be rich whenever the ECU goes open loop. Or it could be the wax unit, as it's about the only thing left to check. I have a PCV and WB2 module installed, which did help. I just need to get more miles on it this year so the autotune can do its thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer PorradaVFR Posted March 21, 2014 Author Member Contributer Share Posted March 21, 2014 Argh. Just heard back from the shop and the good news is I have information, the bad news is that's it's...bad news. Someone (NOT me) duct taped over the PAIR ports...based on the condition of the tape it was "years ago"...but the hose was not blocked and it was slopped, leaving some of the rubber ducts pinched. The PO did not strike me at ALL like a fiddler, so I have no idea what the hell that's about. The O2 sensors are not fully heating up so they're not performing 100%...not sure how that affects their signal, but it's not right. The TPS is bad...it's sending a warm-up signal all the time, meaning even a Power Commander would not be able to compensate for it..and the price quoted for a new one is nearly half what I paid for the bike to begin with. Ouch. They further note that the factor assembly uses safety screws so it cannot reliably be disassembled and even if it was there's no adjustment to make. Bottom line - all told with parts it's looking like $2,000 to replace the whole deal. Nuts. Does anyone have a 2002-2005 TPS/throttle assembly they don't need? *sigh* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGREGT Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 My 09 sounds a lot like yours. I rarely see 200 km (125 mi?) to a tank and haven't since new. Damn. 125 miles per tank is worse than what I get! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer dawson Posted March 21, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted March 21, 2014 What's a warm-up signal from the TPS? Kinda sounds like muffler bearings and headlight fluid... :s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer FM1 Posted March 21, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted March 21, 2014 Argh. Just heard back from the shop and the good news is I have information, the bad news is that's it's...bad news. Someone (NOT me) duct taped over the PAIR ports...based on the condition of the tape it was "years ago"...but the hose was not blocked and it was slopped, leaving some of the rubber ducts pinched. The PO did not strike me at ALL like a fiddler, so I have no idea what the hell that's about. The O2 sensors are not fully heating up so they're not performing 100%...not sure how that affects their signal, but it's not right. The TPS is bad...it's sending a warm-up signal all the time, meaning even a Power Commander would not be able to compensate for it..and the price quoted for a new one is nearly half what I paid for the bike to begin with. Ouch. They further note that the factor assembly uses safety screws so it cannot reliably be disassembled and even if it was there's no adjustment to make. Bottom line - all told with parts it's looking like $2,000 to replace the whole deal. Nuts. Does anyone have a 2002-2005 TPS/throttle assembly they don't need? *sigh* Ouch that's steep...I wouldn't spend $2000 on my vfr considering its close to half what I paid for it. My 2 cents, if you can't repair it in a couple of $$ then sell it and buy another vfr or any other bike you fancy. For me, its not worth the head ache especially if you spend more time fixing it than riding it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer ecn Posted March 22, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted March 22, 2014 hopefully a good set of pair valve block plates ($20) would clear up the duct tape fiasco. $150 TPS sensor (with extra airbox you can sell) http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/291100093084?lpid=82 They didn't say the o2 sensors were bad, just that they weren't heating up. Maybe go PC and eliminate them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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