Member Contributer PorradaVFR Posted March 1, 2014 Author Member Contributer Share Posted March 1, 2014 Probably not, did the bike ever run right ? The bike actually starts and runs like a champ - she's just a bit too thirsty for fuel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer vfrurknee Posted March 1, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted March 1, 2014 Al, I checked with my youngest who works at the Honda shop in Tulsa, and he says the VTECs do have a hot wax unit. So, it might bear worth looking into. It wouldn't have to be off very much to cause an issue. I reread your replies about running temps and they sound a little bit suspicious to me. My guess is that you don't have the temp extremes there that I see here so it is harder to diagnose but IIRC on a day where ambient air temps are in the 70s cruising gives me engine temp of 185. Stop and go will elevate until the fans kick on around 215-218. But even when really cold it maintains at no less than 175. I think the thermostats are rated at 185. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted March 2, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted March 2, 2014 I beginning to think your catalytic converter is clogged, if its been running this rich for awhile it could be almost clogged .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer PorradaVFR Posted March 3, 2014 Author Member Contributer Share Posted March 3, 2014 I beginning to think your catalytic converter is clogged, if its been running this rich for awhile it could be almost clogged .. The bike doesn't quite have 7k miles on it, so I would hope that's unlikely. Shop is closed on Monday so I'm shopping Power Commanders and waiting to see if they find something with the wax unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted March 3, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted March 3, 2014 I beginning to think your catalytic converter is clogged, if its been running this rich for awhile it could be almost clogged .. The bike doesn't quite have 7k miles on it, so I would hope that's unlikely. Shop is closed on Monday so I'm shopping Power Commanders and waiting to see if they find something with the wax unit. I hope the PC makes it better and not worse . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Mohawk Posted March 3, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted March 3, 2014 The CAT won't ever clog, unless your engine tears itself apart. it might not work as intended if fed overly rich mixture for too long, but remember it gets this everyday when its cold ! Hot wax unit is a good probability. The other thing to check is did you reconnect the O2 sensors correctly after you got rid of the O2 eliminators ? If not connected or not correctly connected, then the ECU goes into get you home mode, which is like a system failure mode & runs very rich. You should have an EFi warning light, check it lights with ignition on but engine stopped. Should clear at engine start under normal circumstances, but the bulb can blow if left on for too long ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer PorradaVFR Posted March 3, 2014 Author Member Contributer Share Posted March 3, 2014 The CAT won't ever clog, unless your engine tears itself apart. it might not work as intended if fed overly rich mixture for too long, but remember it gets this everyday when its cold ! Hot wax unit is a good probability. The other thing to check is did you reconnect the O2 sensors correctly after you got rid of the O2 eliminators ? If not connected or not correctly connected, then the ECU goes into get you home mode, which is like a system failure mode & runs very rich. You should have an EFi warning light, check it lights with ignition on but engine stopped. Should clear at engine start under normal circumstances, but the bulb can blow if left on for too long ! I'm hoping the hot wax thing pans out as I'm not really anxious to spend $300 on a PC if it's not really needed. We did check the O2 sensors (repeatedly) and they were correctly connected and re-connected just to be sure. The ECU does throw a code when they're not plugged in so it does not appear that it's "missing" anything (like a bad O2 sensor). I'm trying to rationalize in advance that I was already irritated by the slight flat spot ~5k RPM and with the hope that a PC will bring the fuel economy up to closer to 40mpg and (eventually) make financial sense. Do folks with PCs have any reason to avoid them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer vfrurknee Posted March 3, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted March 3, 2014 Al, I think most folks adding a PC do so to maximize power output and or tune to an aftermarket exhaust add on, but I guess you could also use one to lean out the mixtures, ignoring the HP numbers. My experience with my 5th gens indicates a slightly lower mpg in exchange for the increase in power. Either way to get the full benefit I feel you need to dyno tune them. But, that's just my opinion. I took one of mine off and saw a noticeable improvement in economy and very little , if any, loss in performance. Hope you get it sorted out to your satisfaction! Ernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted March 3, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted March 3, 2014 Hot wax unit would just increase idle or not work at all . No affect on anything else. And we had a member here who had a clog cat and replacing it finally solve has problems BUT his also did not perform very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted March 3, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted March 3, 2014 Wax unit only works on the starter valves at idle only and when cold , as soon as you twist the throttle the starter valves are by passed by the butterfly valves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted March 3, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted March 3, 2014 If you still think its the hot wax unit pull the air box and back the adjuster nut on the wax unit all the back. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4oVVbzTvVo#t=0 Whats the temp in Santa Clara today ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer PorradaVFR Posted March 3, 2014 Author Member Contributer Share Posted March 3, 2014 Wax unit only works on the starter valves at idle only and when cold , as soon as you twist the throttle the starter valves are by passed by the butterfly valves. Hmmm....then that might be a pointless exercise entirely, the bike is running rich WOT and warm. Argh! If you still think its the hot wax unit pull the air box and back the adjuster nut on the wax unit all the back. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4oVVbzTvVo#t=0 Whats the temp in Santa Clara today ? Bike is still at the shop and they're closed today. I'm waiting to hear what his last efforts came up with from Saturday and if we're still flailing I'll look to order a PC. The other option, as noted earlier, was to presume the O2 sensors are bad and replace them...but that costs the same as a PC+ eliminators which ideally would fix this ANY maybe improve performance a tad to boot. I dunno, I'm kind of feeling like I'm chasing a gremlin at this point with no hard lead on what to check beyond what's been done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted March 3, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted March 3, 2014 Did you clean the O2 sensor's after you remove the resistors ? If not there not working and if you do clean them pull both battery leads and let the bike sit for 10 15 minutes and then reconnect the battery . At least pull and inspect them . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rigger4343 Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 After reading through this thread, it makes me think that maybe I should look into a few things on my bike. I finally got to run a full tank through it since I got it home last month and she only pulled 34mpg out of the tank. My bike is stock except for the few free mods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted March 4, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted March 4, 2014 Did you clean the O2 sensor's after you remove the resistors ? If not there not working and if you do clean them pull both battery leads and let the bike sit for 10 15 minutes and then reconnect the battery . At least pull and inspect them . I ran the resistor's on my for a couple of weeks, it did run better but did not like the gas mileage around 34 35 mpg never 30 mpg. But when i went back i cleaned mine with Seafoam and gas and wire brush . Mine were completely covered in carbon black soot . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer PorradaVFR Posted March 4, 2014 Author Member Contributer Share Posted March 4, 2014 Hmmm...you're saying dirty O2 sensors might be a problem? They were out and dirty - not crusted up or sooty, but definitely not shiny metal. That is intriguing - what would be expected at 7k miles? I would say they look like the inside of an exhaust more or less. Would dirty sensors throw up a code? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Mohawk Posted March 4, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted March 4, 2014 No Code for dirty sensors, as I discovered playing around with my 5th gen, the O2 eliminators (resistor in my case) is only required on one O2 cable, the ECU is happy so long as it see heater power draw on one sensor. the resistors are there just to simulate power draw to the sensor heater. If the ECU then does not get a reading from the sensor, it just assumes worst case scenario & starts dumping a very rich mixture in. When I had the dyno tune done for my PC I left the O2 sensors in & was getting circa 35mpg (UK gallon = 4.5L / US gallon = 3.8L) with the eliminators in place fuel consumption was down to 30mpg :( Needless to say I put the sensors back in. But my next tune will have them removed completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted March 4, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted March 4, 2014 No Code for dirty sensors, as I discovered playing around with my 5th gen, the O2 eliminators (resistor in my case) is only required on one O2 cable, the ECU is happy so long as it see heater power draw on one sensor. the resistors are there just to simulate power draw to the sensor heater. If the ECU then does not get a reading from the sensor, it just assumes worst case scenario & starts dumping a very rich mixture in. When I had the dyno tune done for my PC I left the O2 sensors in & was getting circa 35mpg (UK gallon = 4.5L / US gallon = 3.8L) with the eliminators in place fuel consumption was down to 30mpg :( Needless to say I put the sensors back in. But my next tune will have them removed completely. Makes sense !!! I would at least try it before buying a PC .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer PorradaVFR Posted March 4, 2014 Author Member Contributer Share Posted March 4, 2014 No Code for dirty sensors, as I discovered playing around with my 5th gen, the O2 eliminators (resistor in my case) is only required on one O2 cable, the ECU is happy so long as it see heater power draw on one sensor. the resistors are there just to simulate power draw to the sensor heater. If the ECU then does not get a reading from the sensor, it just assumes worst case scenario & starts dumping a very rich mixture in. When I had the dyno tune done for my PC I left the O2 sensors in & was getting circa 35mpg (UK gallon = 4.5L / US gallon = 3.8L) with the eliminators in place fuel consumption was down to 30mpg :( Needless to say I put the sensors back in. But my next tune will have them removed completely. I don't understand...my understanding was that you HAD to eliminate the O2 sensors when using a PC as otherwise they would effectively countermand it, or you would get an error code. How did you have them co-existing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted March 4, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted March 4, 2014 No Code for dirty sensors, as I discovered playing around with my 5th gen, the O2 eliminators (resistor in my case) is only required on one O2 cable, the ECU is happy so long as it see heater power draw on one sensor. the resistors are there just to simulate power draw to the sensor heater. If the ECU then does not get a reading from the sensor, it just assumes worst case scenario & starts dumping a very rich mixture in. When I had the dyno tune done for my PC I left the O2 sensors in & was getting circa 35mpg (UK gallon = 4.5L / US gallon = 3.8L) with the eliminators in place fuel consumption was down to 30mpg :( Needless to say I put the sensors back in. But my next tune will have them removed completely. I don't understand...my understanding was that you HAD to eliminate the O2 sensors when using a PC as otherwise they would effectively countermand it, or you would get an error code. How did you have them co-existing? Me too but they do have the auto tune PC which I think you install a wide band O2 sensors in place of the old O2 sensors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer PorradaVFR Posted March 4, 2014 Author Member Contributer Share Posted March 4, 2014 No Code for dirty sensors, as I discovered playing around with my 5th gen, the O2 eliminators (resistor in my case) is only required on one O2 cable, the ECU is happy so long as it see heater power draw on one sensor. the resistors are there just to simulate power draw to the sensor heater. If the ECU then does not get a reading from the sensor, it just assumes worst case scenario & starts dumping a very rich mixture in. When I had the dyno tune done for my PC I left the O2 sensors in & was getting circa 35mpg (UK gallon = 4.5L / US gallon = 3.8L) with the eliminators in place fuel consumption was down to 30mpg :( Needless to say I put the sensors back in. But my next tune will have them removed completely. I don't understand...my understanding was that you HAD to eliminate the O2 sensors when using a PC as otherwise they would effectively countermand it, or you would get an error code. How did you have them co-existing? Me too but they do have the auto tune PC which I think you install a wide band O2 sensors in place of the old O2 sensors. Ahh...yeah, that's available but substantially more expensive. I'd opt for the $20 eliminators (or hell, put the resistors back in). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted March 4, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted March 4, 2014 The best mileage I ever got was 36 mpg with resisitors .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burkov Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 On my stock bike, with only KN air filter, a finally made a 38 mpg. I was way far from this, but with almost decent speeds and one fifth of the miles, done with more than 100 mph i managed to do this. I think that with very light throttle i could get 42-43 mpg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tightwad Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Hmmm, my bike gets terrible mileage when commuting (like 30-32 mpg) but i put that down to long idle times at lights. I will have to try a full tank ride to see what it does when not commuting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGREGT Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 You think stop lights have something to do with this? That seems really negligible to me. If it helps, I use mine solely for commuting, never stop basically (first at every light/stopsign here in SoCal and first to leave every light/stop sign, and I split lanes the whole way = as close to non-stop as you can get, really) and I still get 30-32 MPG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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