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Stator Bbq Fix


Auspanglish

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Well great minds think alike.. Switchblade.. Or demented ones..

Engineering buddy decided to go all Friday 13th on the casing.. You can say oil port..

Let me explain..

Found a crucial difference between 5th and 6th gen motors re said oil flow in the stator housing. There's a longish metal oil conduit pipe for VTEC operation smack bang in front of the orifice for oil flow from crankcase to the stator housing bay. Thus hampering the proper oil flow distribution. This would explain the infinitely higher proportion of stator burn out on 6th gen as opposed to 5th gen. This is backed up by the fact that the critical heat damage occurs in the upper half of the stator, as gravity assures the lower half, or third, does receive oil and thus some cooling.

The oil is around 100 degrees but the stators apparently get much hotter. So the oil is necessary for cooling.. Some form of cooling is necessary.

Obviously additional defects in the wiring harness all add to the problem.

The aluminium alternator cover has thus been modified to provide better oil flow to the coils.. Basically cutting notches into the thing.. Pictures speak a thousand words..

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More could be done, for example having a custom conduit pipe built to reroute the original set up and thus allow proper oil entry but that's big bucks.

This is the pipe..
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You can clearly see here above how the pipe blocks the oil entry from the crankcase to the stator housing bay.
Doesn't exist on the 5th gen!!

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I'm no mechanic, but it seems that there is in fact about half of the oil port visible below the pipe in the photo. Under what kind of pressure would the oil be flowing thru that port? Enough to spray past the partial occlusion of the port? Wouldn't you think the engineers designing the motor be aware of all the permutations of their own design? I mean that's what they get paid for, right? Not trying to totally discount your discovery...just playing devil's advocate...

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One supposes they would take it into account but the evidence is fairly clear. We even have a differential diagnosis supporting the hypothesis, derived from the comparison with the 5th gen motor and symptoms.

The 5th gen is not famous for frying stators, the 6th gen is. The 5th gen does not have that pipe in the way, the 6th gen does. The stators all fry with the exact same pattern.. Seen again and again..See photo below.. Rotate the photo 90 degrees clockwise to orientate the stators as fitted to the bike. Burnt up top and down the sides but unscathed at the very bottom, where the oil is guaranteed to get to thanks to gravity.

3 different stators all with the same patent burnt pattern:

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The pipe has been looked at up real close by a team of industrial engineers that work on, fix and diagnose break downs on all sorts of motors and machinery at one of Spain's most important shipping ports.

Honda's engineers have overlooked several design/manufacturing issues to do with the 6th gen. Just to name a few, there was the VTEC transition issue which they took 4 years to address, finally they introduced histeresis to the engagement/disengagement point, instead of being at the same value (6800 engagement/6800 disengagement), they introduced histeresis (6400 engagement/6100 disengagement). Not to mention PCV

valve recall for having been installed upside down, rear subchassis cracking issues among others. So these highly paid individuals are not exempt from brain farts.

I'm convinced beyond a doubt, but by all means feel free to comment and debate the issue here.

Yes the post is in another thread. I have opened this one to avoid hijacking.

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Looks like you really only have a choice of "Done" or "Well Done" with the VFR stators, as no matter what gen you have, the top portion of the stator will still tend to fry anyway after some time, being that not enough oil gets to it to cool it sufficiently. Interesting why Honda did not come up with a way to fully immerse the stator in oil by just creating enough of a compartment for it that will fill with oil to a higher level when the engine is running...

Can that be a mod that a VFR owner can do, in addition to this slotting of the cases??

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Interesting theory and on the face of it does sount plausible.

Two questions:

1 - What advantage are you gaining by cutting the aluminum out? I understand that you want to get more oil to enter, just don't picture how would this cutting accomplish said goal.

2 - I'm sure that the answer is NO, BUT... Can the "frown" be turned upside down? IS there enough room behind the stator flywheel to flip the conduit pipe?

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Interesting theory and on the face of it does sount plausible.

Two questions:

1 - What advantage are you gaining by cutting the aluminum out? I understand that you want to get more oil to enter, just don't picture how would this cutting accomplish said goal.

2 - I'm sure that the answer is NO, BUT... Can the "frown" be turned upside down? IS there enough room behind the stator flywheel to flip the conduit pipe?

That stator flywheel looks tight against that back wall. I don't see any room in there to move that pipe around. What if one will "ovalize" that conduit pipe where it crosses over that oiler hole, as long as long as one will not go too far with the reshaping of the line, oil flow through the pipe should not be affected too much, if at all. Not a 100% solution to improve the oil flow through that opening, but it could help....

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I brought this up earlier, why not add a port from the oil cooler to the stator cover and spray the cooled oil onto the stator.

Rather than adding a port, how about re-routing the oil cooler outlet tube to the stator cover?

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I can see a couple of benefits to routing the oil line on the return trip from the cooler to the stator:

1. Cooler oil, obviously

2. It would be unique.

That being said though, what would the cons be? What kind of disruption in the oil flow would there be? Would there be a drop in oil pressure?

Just tossing stuff out there.

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If the oil goes from the oil pump to the crank, camshafts etc., then there's no way that could work-- oil pressure would be next to none.You would need a scavenge pump in the sump to go to the cooler and then to the alternator.

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In the FSM for a 5th Gen there is a diagram of the lubrication system on page 4-0. It shows the way the oil flows.

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The FSM... I need to look at that for the 6th gen. Which I happen to keep on my flash drive at all time... LOL


Here it is from the FSM:

It looks like diverting oil after the oil cooler would be a bad thing, no?


Short of adding a smaller, secondary, oil cooler, I just don't see it being a viable option. Unless you had some sort of split line, with a smaller diameter tube going to the alternator cover?

(again, just throwing ideas out there)

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I brought this up earlier, why not add a port from the oil cooler to the stator cover and spray the cooled oil onto the stator.

Rather than adding a port, how about re-routing the oil cooler outlet tube to the stator cover?

You the man. Excellent idea !!!!!!

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Obviously the ultimate fix would be providing better oil flow to the stator... brainstorming as you all are is usually the first stage in approaching a fix for any problema... so top marks to all for throwing ideas out there... these ideas then have to be considered in terms of viability and validity... as in, will they effectively achieve what is desired (better stator cooling) and, if scavenging of the existing cooling/lubricating system, will there be any unwanted negative side-effects from doing so??

The conduit that obstructs oil flow into the alternator housing bay is for VTEC activation so "reshaping" it could lead to problems with said feature. You may effectively eliminate or créate a malfunctioning VTEC engagement if the oil-pressure to that system is altered in any way...

Switchblade's idea of having an alternate source of incoming oil to the stator housing is very interesting... where to steal that oil flow from so that no other components are starved is evidently of vital importance. Probably quite doable. It's just a matter of studying all the variables.

As far as the "experiment" performed on the cover, we are completely uncertain as to how this will effect oil flow to and/or cooling of the stator but the idea is based on the fact that in its original form, it has a prefabbed slot at the 12 o'clock position and any oil entering this slot will run out of the centre of the stator flowing down over the coils that you can see in the photos tend to be nice and milky white in colour, this both being based on and reinforcing our theory even further at the same time. Some of this oil is assumed to be "flung" by the rotational forces existent within the housing bay, due to the spinning of the rotor, mostly because the stator does take some time (read kilometers) to fry. We hope to provide an alternative route for the oil to exit and hopefully be "flung" by the rotational forces from a higher position and thus supply a greater volumen of oil reaching the upper portions of the stator coils.

It is true though, we are completely unaware of the fluid dynamics taking place within the housing while the engine is running... for this reason I asked Seb if he felt doing a clear window on the stator cover was as viable as it has been proven with the clutch cover... to be able to observe in real time what's acutally going on in there... Seb points out this would be a very small window due to the stator mounting points and I am not even sure we will bother... my engineering buddy has basically said we will try an alternative option for testing the results of the experiment... i.e. riding the bike 20 thousand km or so and then taking a look at the stator...

:cool:

I myself will also shortly be performing this same mod on my 6th gen (3rd stator fry in 130,000 km just happened recently) but I will possibly perform a third cut into the stator cover, thus having oil slots at 12 (OEM), 3 and 9 o'clock...

:ph34r:

Nothing to loose.

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I'm no mechanic, but it seems that there is in fact about half of the oil port visible below the pipe in the photo. Under what kind of pressure would the oil be flowing thru that port? Enough to spray past the partial occlusion of the port? Wouldn't you think the engineers designing the motor be aware of all the permutations of their own design? I mean that's what they get paid for, right? Not trying to totally discount your discovery...just playing devil's advocate...

the world is FULL of stupid designs made by people getting paid for it!!

the honda shadow 1100

it has a special T shaped battery ,thanks to the rube forgetting to add a battery to the plans and HONDA>>..HONDA ,NOT catching the mistake until a sh^tload of frames where completed!!

the suzuki CAN O TUNA.. the first few years had the fuse box on the side of the rear seat support.. meaning.. you had to loosen the windshield and the mirror and the right front fairing then the right rear fairing, remove the seat. pull the tail fairing out from overlapping front, then change a fuse! thats right!! just scant 25 min to do in! anit that just swell!??

how many bikes with battery placed between the the swingarm struts ?? meaning you have to jack the rear wheel 2 feet in the air to get a 1 foot clearance to drop the battery..i know of 4 by suzuki.. i am pretty sure its the same moron that created the vomitus can o tuna...

as for the VFR... the problem was solved YEARS ago.. its just $$$$

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Sounds sexy!!!

Or simply finding a stator that runs cooler and has better isolation material... what's it called in English lacquer? varnish?

Lacquer is good, the original term was Shellac before synthetics came along.

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durban in germany.. its not just a cover.. the stator is on the OUTSIDE of the rotor.. which is now just a bilit disk with magnetic inserts. the whole package chops 75% weight of the stock rotor/stator/cover :blink:

wish i had the $$$ for it myself :tongue2: .

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