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Handling, Running Out Of Rear Tire, Suspension Settings


CandyRedRC46

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No one said you can't! :)

My experience on and off the track is that a rider will notice changes in tire pressure, and that the bike will work differently, but under most circumstances, a pound or three here and there isn't go make an earth-shattering difference. There are far too many variables for anyone to provide the "perfect" numbers. Rider weight. Gear/equipment. Outside temps. Hot or cool roads. Suspension. Braking style. It is a fool's errand until you get into a somewhat controlled environment.

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And you need to put more air in your tires, 36/42

I see those numbers posted often. Those are stock pressure settings and not ideal for twisty work. Perfect for commuting and such but definitely not what I would run if you are throwing the thing through turns with anger.

This is not true. The stock pressure settings for street tires being run on the street are perfectly fine. Anything more than a couple psi low and you are doing more harm than good on the street.

At the track where you can monitor tire pressures when hot and you are running CONSISTENT triple digits for extended periods of time feel free to play with the tire pressure but even on a 20 minutes per hour track day session the Michelin Engineers say to run the pressure recommended on the sidewalls.

And it has nothing to do with lawyers and everything to do with how the tire is designed.

From my experience over 2 decades with various tires and motorcycles, sorry my experience says otherwise. How is more grip harm over good? I'll just agree to disagree and will keep running my tire pressures that I've run for a decade on my roads. I don't run stock tire pressures unless I'm on a trip with lots of slab.

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And you need to put more air in your tires, 36/42

I see those numbers posted often. Those are stock pressure settings and not ideal for twisty work. Perfect for commuting and such but definitely not what I would run if you are throwing the thing through turns with anger.

This is not true. The stock pressure settings for street tires being run on the street are perfectly fine. Anything more than a couple psi low and you are doing more harm than good on the street.

At the track where you can monitor tire pressures when hot and you are running CONSISTENT triple digits for extended periods of time feel free to play with the tire pressure but even on a 20 minutes per hour track day session the Michelin Engineers say to run the pressure recommended on the sidewalls.

And it has nothing to do with lawyers and everything to do with how the tire is designed.

From my experience over 2 decades with various tires and motorcycles, sorry my experience says otherwise. How is more grip harm over good? I'll just agree to disagree and will keep running my tire pressures that I've run for a decade on my roads. I don't run stock tire pressures unless I'm on a trip with lots of slab.

And that is my point, when was the last time you ran the tire manufacturers recommended pressure on the street? These aren't the bias ply tires of two decades ago.

If it has been more than a the last two or three tire advancements then you should run the correct air pressure on the street and tell us what you find. What ill handling issue are you correcting by dropping your pressures from the tire engineers recommended pressure?

What test data can you provide that shows you have more grip on the street by lowering your tire pressures below the design engineers?

We old dogs with a few decades of riding under our belt will probably just agree to disagree but I don't want some new riders on here thinking that your two decade long riding with your tires below the design specification for air pressure is empirical data that must be followed or they will blow up or slide off the road.

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I can understand that dropping the psi a bit MAY give you more grip. I understand that it will help the tire warm up faster and stay warmer, which is probably good if the road is cold (<50F).

But how much more grip are you getting for running it that much lower, and do you really need that extra bit of grip? I've scrapped a few pegs through corners on 36/42 no problem. Not saying I was going fast, just that the bike was leaned over a bit, and everything was fine. Unless you are going at track pace on the road, I really can't see a good reason to run anything lower than 34/40 on a normal basis, if not 36/42.

Remember, with modern tires, it's not just the rubber on the outside. A lot of it is the construction of the carcass now. The rubber may be the same between tires, but the steel and weave underneath has a big impact. The tire pressure has to work with that too.

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Come on now it is debating tire pressures, for example do people watch racing or any form of motorsport as an example & see the tems adjusting tire pressures even if just 1-2psi. It doesn't matter if track/road you can experiment with tire pressures there is no hard & fast rule on what pressure you use, the recommended pressures that come on bike are just that recommended & there for the OEM tire spec.

I'm sure everybody if they think about it can realise the amount of variables outside air temp, road surface temp, road surface friction, weight of bike & rider, tire construction, tire compound, etc we don't race for tenths so on the road you find a happy place for tire pressure that allows a performance we require.

To answer an earlier post you gain more grip dropping pressure because it increases the tire contact patch on the road, more contact patch more grip but there are limits you just can't drop the pressure your tire will deform so much it can't maintain profile.

Just for my example at present I'm running Metzeler M5

road cold pressure front 34-36psi (mainly 34), rear 36-38psi (mainly 36)

track cold pressure front 30-32psi, rear 30-32psi (due to extra heat with larger contact patch & pushing tire harder the pressure increase when hot is larger on track which is also a reason to start with a lower pressure)

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Agreed on the tire pressures, too soft and you're deforming the tire. I would like to add that riding technique is also a factor when reading tires. Two riders could ride the same speeds in the corners and obviously have very different wear patterns. I tend to be a little more off the bike in corner, therefore the bike is a bit more upright, holding the bike away a bit with elbows out to make adjustments. This gives me, in my opinion, more of an option to bring the bike down more if the corner tightens or I need to adjust my line. If you tend to drop the bike as far as you can and keep your body over the bike, or in some cases upright, you are using up all your tire edge and will run out of grip. I prefer to be a bit more animated on the bike then I always have the option of using tire edge I have in reserve. Chopping at a corner can also get wear to the edge of the tire but that is a bad way to get the job done. Also...go to the track if you are riding that close to the edge so often.

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And that is my point, when was the last time you ran the tire manufacturers recommended pressure on the street? These aren't the bias ply tires of two decades ago.

If it has been more than a the last two or three tire advancements then you should run the correct air pressure on the street and tell us what you find. What ill handling issue are you correcting by dropping your pressures from the tire engineers recommended pressure?

What test data can you provide that shows you have more grip on the street by lowering your tire pressures below the design engineers?

We old dogs with a few decades of riding under our belt will probably just agree to disagree but I don't want some new riders on here thinking that your two decade long riding with your tires below the design specification for air pressure is empirical data that must be followed or they will blow up or slide off the road.

LMAO. Yeah running 34/36 and your tire will delaminate, explode, and slide off the road!!!! Dumbest shit I've read on here yet.

I posted what I run. You can hand down absolutes, myself, I don't deal with them so you'll have to pardon the demeanor.

You must have missed the parts of my post where I spoke to several tire mfr's about hard twisty riding and pressures. 2 different reps recommended 34/36. 36/42 is the max rating, hell it's printed on my bike. It's not rocket science that when you drop a few psi you get more contact patch.

I run even lower pressures at the track (32/32) and I've never had a tire explode or cause me to take a trip in the litter. It sounds like you don't know much about PSI or grip.

What you should do is not blow a gasket when someone doesn't agree with you. Stock pressure for all is nonsense. I ran stock pressure on both of my bikes when new, and one of them was bought this year. That shit didn't last long either.

Edited by luvtoleanit
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May I suggest running all tires at 0 PSI so as to avoid any gasket blowing? :)

For street riding, I think it is up to the rider to set to whatever they wish. I usually hang around the manufacturer's because it has never been a problem on ST tires while scraping knees or hard parts. Why change?

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But the question remains, do you really need that additional grip. You yourself said that you ran 34/36, and bumped it up to 34/38 and didn't notice any change. What if you bumped it up to 34/40? Do you think that by doing that you're going to lose the rear end at every corner as if you are on ice? Or are you just putting more wear on the tires than necessary? No real good way to know how much grip you get or how much you need.

I don't want people thinking that you HAVE to run lower pressures 'FOR THE STREET'. Go ahead and experiment a bit, but a few psi lower is all you should need, if you find you need any drop at all. I found that a few psi for cold days is good on the VFR, normal on warm days, but the ST feels like a pig at even 3psi below factory.

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And that is my point, when was the last time you ran the tire manufacturers recommended pressure on the street? These aren't the bias ply tires of two decades ago.

If it has been more than a the last two or three tire advancements then you should run the correct air pressure on the street and tell us what you find. What ill handling issue are you correcting by dropping your pressures from the tire engineers recommended pressure?

What test data can you provide that shows you have more grip on the street by lowering your tire pressures below the design engineers?

We old dogs with a few decades of riding under our belt will probably just agree to disagree but I don't want some new riders on here thinking that your two decade long riding with your tires below the design specification for air pressure is empirical data that must be followed or they will blow up or slide off the road.

LMAO. Yeah running 34/36 and your tire will delaminate, explode, and slide off the road!!!! Dumbest shit I've read on here yet.

I posted what I run. You can hand down absolutes, myself, I don't deal with them so you'll have to pardon the demeanor.

You must have missed the parts of my post where I spoke to several tire mfr's about hard twisty riding and pressures. 2 different reps recommended 34/36. 36/42 is the max rating, hell it's printed on my bike. It's not rocket science that when you drop a few psi you get more contact patch.

I run even lower pressures at the track (32/32) and I've never had a tire explode or cause me to take a trip in the litter. It sounds like you don't know much about PSI or grip.

What you should do is not blow a gasket when someone doesn't agree with you. Stock pressure for all is nonsense. I ran stock pressure on both of my bikes when new, and one of them was bought this year. That shit didn't last long either.

Your reading comprehension is terrible but your distraction and obfuscation is spot on...

And you need to put more air in your tires, 36/42

I see those numbers posted often. Those are stock pressure settings and not ideal for twisty work. Perfect for commuting and such but definitely not what I would run if you are throwing the thing through turns with anger.

32/32 is still really low for the street. Street use is where the manufacturers design the tires for, and they design them to work their best at 36/42. For the track lower pressures are fine, but unless you are going fast to the point where you are backing it in every corner, there isn't much of a reason to run 10psi lower *on the street. A couple psi down maybe.

This is what was originally said this is still the best advice for Candy RC46, he does not need 10 psi below the tire manufacturers recommended pressure for the street, regardless of how much anger he exhibits when throwing his bike through turns on the street.

Feel free to play with the your tire pressures but Yoshi was right with his advice.

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Manufacturers recommended cold pressures are the same the world over, but what really matters is HOT ! Also remember that those pressures are recommended at an industry standard 20c ambients temperature ! What was the temp where you live when you last checked them ?

Imagine dragging the bike out on the first dry day of spring in 5c temps checking your pressures at 36/42, then a couple of weeks later you have a mini heat wave of 30c guess where your tyre pressures are gonna be !? Over the recommended setting.

Now imagine the difference between setting the cold pressure in Texas summer temps & running on red hot tarmac & doing the same in Alaska autumn, running on cold roads. Do you think the running temp & thus pressure will be the same ? Simple answer NO.

Now go adjust your pressures to suit your needs !

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^^ sometimes common sense just falls on deaf ears, well said Mohawk.

To many people are like sheep & need to follow, just because there is a spec sheet of recommended settings for everything doesn't mean there the be all & end all of settings. People modify there bikes differently, buy different model bikes, buy different tires, use different oil & the list goes on. The most important thing is to use tires & pressures that YOU the rider feel confident with, it doesn't matter if you can obtain the same grip wear with a harder compound tire or higher pressure than you like to run, the important thing is the rider has confidence in his/her set up. I run a softer compound on the VFR than I need 95% of the time & waste money having to replace my tires due to lower mileage, but I feel more at ease knowing I have lets say an extra level of tolerance if I do push the limits which would probably be less than 5% of the time.

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You guys all made some good points. I am going to deflate my tires by 10 psi right now, not sure how I missed this.

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php/topic/56462-6th-gen-tire-pressure-concern-question/

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php/topic/54334-whats-the-diff-between-a-p-power-and-a-p-road-2/

never mind, I think I will re-inflate them after reading these other posts. I am so confused now.

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I really don't know where any of the hate is coming from. I really really don't.

Unless I'm just not reading anything right, I thought we were all pretty much saying that you shouldn't run track pressures on the street, and a little experimenting is fine and nothing catastrophic is going to happen, and adjusting for weather/temperatures is also important. I'm still going to tell people who are just getting into it to start at 36/42 and play around with it from there when they are comfortable, because I don't see why I would tell someone relatively new to run 6psi lower off the bat and never do anything else.

To the "common sense" point Mohawk brought up. It is a good point. Temperature swings will change your cold tire pressure. 5C to 30C would be a 4psi change. Which is why it is a very good idea (possibly even 'common sense' :wink: ) for people to regularly check your tire pressures. Right before you go out for a ride sounds like a really good time to check them too. Even if the temperatures don't change, the pressures can still change for whatever reason.

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The other thing to consider is that the tire's labeled maximum recommended pressure, which is typically 42 psi, is ideal for a bike loaded to it's maximum carrying weight , lets say 400 lbs. That's a rider, passenger, and full luggage.

How can this pressure also be ideal for a single rider, lets say 190 lbs with no luggage.

The simple answer is that it is not ideal.

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The other thing to consider is that the tire's labeled maximum recommended pressure, which is typically 42 psi, is ideal for a bike loaded to it's maximum carrying weight , lets say 400 lbs. That's a rider, passenger, and full luggage.

How can this pressure also be ideal for a single rider, lets say 190 lbs with no luggage.

The simple answer is that it is not ideal.

I disagree, what you're describing is adjusted with the suspension set up. The only time I ride with a lower psi than 36/42 is in real cold weather, then I'll drop each tyre one pound.

The air inside the tyre is going to stay the same to hold the tyres shape no matter what the wt. is.

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The other thing to consider is that the tire's labeled maximum recommended pressure, which is typically 42 psi, is ideal for a bike loaded to it's maximum carrying weight , lets say 400 lbs. That's a rider, passenger, and full luggage.

How can this pressure also be ideal for a single rider, lets say 190 lbs with no luggage.

The simple answer is that it is not ideal.

I disagree, what you're describing is adjusted with the suspension set up. The only time I ride with a lower psi than 36/42 is in real cold weather, then I'll drop each tyre one pound.

The air inside the tyre is going to stay the same to hold the tyres shape no matter what the wt. is.

Well you'll have a smaller contact patch with a single light rider (at 42 psi) than with a fully loaded bike (at 42 psi). Dropping the pressure by 1 psi will not make any noticeable difference. Most pressure gauges are not even accurate or consistent within 1 psi

Edited by Tamworth
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The Vfr is a fairly heavy bike, I think it handles like crap below 35 psi, much like a slug.

About the lowest I go is about 34F/ 40rear. Below that the pronounced sluggishness shows up. course when running border line pressure like that, you have to check pressures ridely. Therefore 36/42, is very usable and allows some leeway.

But as far as delaminating, Ive run sustained post 100mph with hot rear pressures as high as 48 psi, no exploding, cold that was around 43.5 psi

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The other thing to consider is that the tire's labeled maximum recommended pressure, which is typically 42 psi, is ideal for a bike loaded to it's maximum carrying weight , lets say 400 lbs. That's a rider, passenger, and full luggage.

How can this pressure also be ideal for a single rider, lets say 190 lbs with no luggage.

The simple answer is that it is not ideal.

I disagree, what you're describing is adjusted with the suspension set up. The only time I ride with a lower psi than 36/42 is in real cold weather, then I'll drop each tyre one pound.

The air inside the tyre is going to stay the same to hold the tyres shape no matter what the wt. is.

An interesting point. But I am going to side with Monk. When you have a passenger onboard, the suspension becomes the big weak spot when it comes to the handling of the bike.

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Pressures are not as critical on a road tire as they are on a track tire. Road tires are designed to handle many more heat cycles, and perform over a wider range of pressure. They also last a lot longer, and have different temp related grip characteristics.

That said I'm pretty good about checking pressures, but I'm not gonna stop & change 'em in the middle of a ride due to altitude, and temp. variations. If you need to do that to maintain your pace you may want to reconsider how aggressively you are riding on public roads.

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Just my point of view because it's what I like but I run lower pressures than recommended because I like the feed back I receive doing so, it is just like suspension in a way. I'm not talking about very low pressures just a few psi lower than recommended, I can feel the tire working allot better. Instead of arguing the point people should just experiment themselves just drop 2psi cold pressure each time you ride & feel the difference so you personally have an understanding of the effects. So start at your base line just like you do with suspension & test the effects of lowering & increased tire pressure, it is the only way to find out the effects & maybe find a better combo than just the "I always put such & such pressure".

There really is no need to argue the point if your not happy to experiment then don't, you tend to get the same logic with suspension, people don't try different settings so will never know if things can be better.

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And that is my point, when was the last time you ran the tire manufacturers recommended pressure on the street? These aren't the bias ply tires of two decades ago.

If it has been more than a the last two or three tire advancements then you should run the correct air pressure on the street and tell us what you find. What ill handling issue are you correcting by dropping your pressures from the tire engineers recommended pressure?

What test data can you provide that shows you have more grip on the street by lowering your tire pressures below the design engineers?

We old dogs with a few decades of riding under our belt will probably just agree to disagree but I don't want some new riders on here thinking that your two decade long riding with your tires below the design specification for air pressure is empirical data that must be followed or they will blow up or slide off the road.

LMAO. Yeah running 34/36 and your tire will delaminate, explode, and slide off the road!!!! Dumbest shit I've read on here yet.

I posted what I run. You can hand down absolutes, myself, I don't deal with them so you'll have to pardon the demeanor.

You must have missed the parts of my post where I spoke to several tire mfr's about hard twisty riding and pressures. 2 different reps recommended 34/36. 36/42 is the max rating, hell it's printed on my bike. It's not rocket science that when you drop a few psi you get more contact patch.

I run even lower pressures at the track (32/32) and I've never had a tire explode or cause me to take a trip in the litter. It sounds like you don't know much about PSI or grip.

What you should do is not blow a gasket when someone doesn't agree with you. Stock pressure for all is nonsense. I ran stock pressure on both of my bikes when new, and one of them was bought this year. That shit didn't last long either.

Your reading comprehension is terrible but your distraction and obfuscation is spot on...

And you need to put more air in your tires, 36/42

I see those numbers posted often. Those are stock pressure settings and not ideal for twisty work. Perfect for commuting and such but definitely not what I would run if you are throwing the thing through turns with anger.

32/32 is still really low for the street. Street use is where the manufacturers design the tires for, and they design them to work their best at 36/42. For the track lower pressures are fine, but unless you are going fast to the point where you are backing it in every corner, there isn't much of a reason to run 10psi lower *on the street. A couple psi down maybe.

This is what was originally said this is still the best advice for Candy RC46, he does not need 10 psi below the tire manufacturers recommended pressure for the street, regardless of how much anger he exhibits when throwing his bike through turns on the street.

Feel free to play with the your tire pressures but Yoshi was right with his advice.

And I never said to run that low of pressure on the street did I? What was posted was 36/42, and 36/42. Take your own reading comprehension advice. As soon as you quit being combative about this, so will I.

But the question remains, do you really need that additional grip. You yourself said that you ran 34/36, and bumped it up to 34/38 and didn't notice any change. What if you bumped it up to 34/40? Do you think that by doing that you're going to lose the rear end at every corner as if you are on ice? Or are you just putting more wear on the tires than necessary? No real good way to know how much grip you get or how much you need.

I don't want people thinking that you HAVE to run lower pressures 'FOR THE STREET'. Go ahead and experiment a bit, but a few psi lower is all you should need, if you find you need any drop at all. I found that a few psi for cold days is good on the VFR, normal on warm days, but the ST feels like a pig at even 3psi below factory.

I did notice this weekend. Riding in 100 degree temps and on our chopped asphalt complete w/tar snakes. Dropped the rear PSI a few pounds and got a little more traction. Prior was getting some movement out of the rear that I haven't at 38 PSI on these new tires but I was riding in temps 6-10 degrees higher than recent months. Funny how a noticeable temp change can change things. Our roads get a bit slimy and there is maybe 2 miles of smooth pavement out of the 300 miles I routinely ride. This is exactly why 36/42 is just bs to me. PSI is variable. Rider weight, suspension, roads, temps, so many variables for a one solution for all conditions. Nonsense IMO.

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The other thing to consider is that the tire's labeled maximum recommended pressure, which is typically 42 psi, is ideal for a bike loaded to it's maximum carrying weight , lets say 400 lbs. That's a rider, passenger, and full luggage.

How can this pressure also be ideal for a single rider, lets say 190 lbs with no luggage.

The simple answer is that it is not ideal.

Dead on Tam. And you are 100% correct on the weight. I haven't removed the nanny sticker off my swingarm on the 1200 and that's exactly what it states, max PSI and max weight. It was 400 lbs or so printed on the decal. And that's exactly what it means. If I'm not hauling 400 lbs then those PSI figures are not what I should be running. That doesn't mean I need to be running track PSI either, just somewheres in between based on my weight, suspension, temps, roads, etc. As you said, if I was loaded up with panniers, passenger, either 400 lbs gross weight, or close, sure, I'd be running the max rec'd PSI. When it's just me on the bike at 220, going to run less PSI. I'll sacrifice a little mileage on the rear for extra grip. Safety over $ is fine with me, I can afford it.

Why the backlash with such common sense is baffling. If you don't know what in the hell you are doing then you shouldn't be on a VFR anyways. You should be on a 125, 250, or something like a SV650. I am not handing out bad advice and I don't care for that reference either.

Just my point of view because it's what I like but I run lower pressures than recommended because I like the feed back I receive doing so, it is just like suspension in a way. I'm not talking about very low pressures just a few psi lower than recommended, I can feel the tire working allot better. Instead of arguing the point people should just experiment themselves just drop 2psi cold pressure each time you ride & feel the difference so you personally have an understanding of the effects. So start at your base line just like you do with suspension & test the effects of lowering & increased tire pressure, it is the only way to find out the effects & maybe find a better combo than just the "I always put such & such pressure".

There really is no need to argue the point if your not happy to experiment then don't, you tend to get the same logic with suspension, people don't try different settings so will never know if things can be better.

Excellent post and great advice. I agree with you, most don't play with suspension settings either. And most probably don't even set the sag. I've heard repeatedly that "stock is fine with me" yet everyone weighs differently and rides differently.

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The other thing to consider is that the tire's labeled maximum recommended pressure, which is typically 42 psi, is ideal for a bike loaded to it's maximum carrying weight , lets say 400 lbs. That's a rider, passenger, and full luggage.

How can this pressure also be ideal for a single rider, lets say 190 lbs with no luggage.

The simple answer is that it is not ideal.

I disagree, what you're describing is adjusted with the suspension set up. The only time I ride with a lower psi than 36/42 is in real cold weather, then I'll drop each tyre one pound.

The air inside the tyre is going to stay the same to hold the tyres shape no matter what the wt. is.

Well you'll have a smaller contact patch with a single light rider (at 42 psi) than with a fully loaded bike (at 42 psi). Dropping the pressure by 1 psi will not make any noticeable difference. Most pressure gauges are not even accurate or consistent within 1 psi

Doing some quick math. If 36/42 was only for fully loaded, so bike, passenger, rider, luggage, then everything should scale. Otherwise it wouldn't make any sense. Rough numbers, 550 for the bike, 180 for the rider, 140 for passenger, and 60 for luggage. 36/42 ideal pressure, since that is 'only' MAX pressure, and this is going to be our MAX load. If we scale it down where 0psi is for 0 weight (because a tire by itself holds it's shape just fine), then the psi for only bike and rider is 28/33. If you want to throw another wrench in there, you could consider the weight distribution, where the rear has more weight on it with the bike fully loaded at a static FoR. Then it would be closer to 30/30 psi. This doesn't seem to work out right.

Meanwhile, your rear shock is sitting there crying about how it was only supposed to hold up the bike and a 140lbs rider, and now you've tripled the load.

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