daword2011 Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Ok so issue started yesterday... Took the bike out for a ride, went through twisties and for a Sunday cruise. No problems everything worked well, at one poin after the twisties I noticed that my clutch saftey switch wasn't working, as in I had it in gear, kick stand up, clutch in and it wouldn't start. Putting it to neutral it started fine. So I help a friend with his bike and about 2 hours later go to start the viffer lights come on, I flip the cutoff switch to run... Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm goes the fuel pump, fi light turns off, I thumb the starter... And click, everything goes dead, no clock no nothing... Hmm fuse I say. So I roll it up to the garage and turn off the key... Clock comes on to 12:00... Hmm weird I think. Thumb starter with key on, nothing. Get the volt meter out, 12v everywhere it should be. Check the little green switch thing under the tank in left side, it has 12 in and none out. Turn key to on and it goes to .04v everywhere... Weird maybe a short, I wiggle the red power cable and boom everything turns on!!! Awesome I thumb the starter and click... Nothing... So an hour later of checking fuses and looking around I finally throw a fully charged ninja 250 battery in and yay it works!!! So well maybe my battery had its last leg... Then today it's time for lunch!! Hummmmmmmm... Click... Great my bike is a battery killer... Any ideas? I'm hoping just a loose connection at that green thing under the tank? What is that thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer YoshiHNS Posted March 4, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted March 4, 2013 Did you try putting your original battery on a charger and seeing if it took a charge. Your charging system might be bad. When it's running, check the voltage at the battery and report back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted March 4, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted March 4, 2013 Check the stator... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daword2011 Posted March 4, 2013 Author Share Posted March 4, 2013 I'll try to charge battery... The voltage drop makes me think short but idk... Ok stator is what's under engine sode cover that is connected to driveshaft. Magnets and copper wire to make current? Regulator is on left side tail has alum fins? But why would the battery be so healthy until I thumb the starter? Then it won't come back... It has a healthy humm an the lights were bright and then I touch the starter button and everything goes out, then turn key off and clock fades back on at generic time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted March 4, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted March 4, 2013 http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php/topic/72634-how-to-figure-out-if-problem-is-rr-or-battery-or-something-else/?hl=%2Bstator+%2Btest#entry855748 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spud786 Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 Well , your battery can have enough ummph to turn everything on, but starting actually requires alot of Ummph. but you need to put a meter across the battery while its running to see if you seeing 14 volts +++ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daword2011 Posted March 5, 2013 Author Share Posted March 5, 2013 Well , your battery can have enough ummph to turn everything on, but starting actually requires alot of Ummph. but you need to put a meter across the battery while its running to see if you seeing 14 volts +++ And it i can't get it started? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VFR4Lee Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 Jump start if you have to. Sounds like a bad battery, but good idea to check the charging system too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daword2011 Posted March 5, 2013 Author Share Posted March 5, 2013 Jump start if you have to. Sounds like a bad battery, but good idea to check the charging system too. after throwing in another good battery and it not working i know its not the battery... as for the voltage, ran down the street in 3rd and dumped the clutch and she fired right up, volts at idle 14.06... volts at 5000 rpm is 13.92... so i think the charging system is working just fine... now i ohmed out the ground terminal of the battery to the frame and it ws .0-.1 ohmes... so i think the ground is intact... time to look for corroded wires... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daword2011 Posted March 5, 2013 Author Share Posted March 5, 2013 What is this thing? saw a thread where it might get corroded and it got me thinking. It clicks like crazy when i thumb the starter with the battery charger charging it at the same time, other wise without the charger it just does nothing, like the battery is bad. (which it isn't check posts above) So my question is what should the ohmes be between the two posts at the other end when the ignition is on? see photo with damaged one to see opposite posts... I might jump the two circled posts (aka opposite posts) to see if it starts cleanly... that would make me think its that switch thing... battery is fully charged and is good but it still lights up everything very dimly when on the charger... so weird!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer MBrane Posted March 5, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted March 5, 2013 That is the starter relay. Could be a problem if it's not making good contact. That last picture is a good example of what happens when the electrical system is neglected. That relay on the L has clearly gotten quite warm from becoming a resistor due to dirt, and heat cycles. It is now junk, but didn't have to be. http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php/topic/72634-how-to-figure-out-if-problem-is-rr-or-battery-or-something-else/?hl=%2Bstator+%2Btest#entry855748 Start with the wiring, and use reliable test equipment. Make no assumptions. Wires can appear to be fine from the outside on visual inspection. Measure the actual resistance between connections at operating temperature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daword2011 Posted March 5, 2013 Author Share Posted March 5, 2013 yeah i am using a fluke "explosion proof" meter im gonna keep trying... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daword2011 Posted March 5, 2013 Author Share Posted March 5, 2013 jumped the two posts and there is definitely a short somewhere... it flows a lot of current, at first it started to turn the starter over for a split second and then just started flowing current, like i was touching a ground to the positive. wire i was using got hot and the battery lost half of its uummmph in just a second of jumping it... (still tiny 250 battery) so for now charging the two batteries i have over night and i shall see what else i can break tomorrow... really stuck between a rock and a hard place... other vehicle gets less than 20mpg and diesel is $4 a gallon... wish this was over and done with already... and of coarse the only thing that i am helpless on mechanically... electrical :( i can tear apart that engine and put it back together before finding a short :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer MBrane Posted March 5, 2013 Member Contributer Share Posted March 5, 2013 yeah i am using a fluke "explosion proof" meter im gonna keep trying... LOL It really is simply a process of elimination, but until you determine that the wiring/connections (the most common problem with VFR electrics) are good to go any component replacement will be temporary relief at best, and leave you chasing your tail. Do your homework before you open your wallet. and of coarse the only thing that i am helpless on mechanically... electrical :( i can tear apart that engine and put it back together before finding a short :( Know anything about plumbing? Electrical is very similar. Think of electricity through wires like water through pipes. What happens when the pipes get old, and choked off with crud? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daword2011 Posted March 5, 2013 Author Share Posted March 5, 2013 yeah i am using a fluke "explosion proof" meter im gonna keep trying... LOL It really is simply a process of elimination, but until you determine that the wiring/connections (the most common problem with VFR electrics) are good to go any component replacement will be temporary relief at best, and leave you chasing your tail. Do your homework before you open your wallet. > and of coarse the only thing that i am helpless on mechanically... electrical :( i can tear apart that engine and put it back together before finding a short :( Know anything about plumbing? Electrical is very similar. Think of electricity through wires like water through pipes. What happens when the pipes get old, and choked off with crud? Yeah it was my dad's back in the day, red cover meaning you can take it into flammable environments and it won't ever spark. Also if you have it on ohmes between a circuit it won't fry it's insides like cheap volt meters can... been a hell of a meter but i only know basics... yeah but taking off the tail and looking at the harness... there could be a short anywhere... all i found out is that it is down stream of the starter relay... it goes to the starter and then EVERYWHERE :/ And since electricity flows to the least resistant point then it could be anywhere really... but if you say the wires are bad then the current wouldn't flow so violently would it? i feel like it is acting like a positive wire is rubbed and shorting on the frame maybe tomorrow. i am beyond my frustration limit at the moment. still confused why it doesn't short when you push start it down the road... maybe its the starter itself? PS: i HATE plumbing... not because its difficult but it always seems that once you fix one thing that another breaks from you messing with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daword2011 Posted March 5, 2013 Author Share Posted March 5, 2013 ok a little more... starter relay between the two "opposite poles", ohms when starter button is un touched is OL and then when i push the button it reads 1.4-1.8 ohms as it is clicking constantly without trying to turn starter... thing is volts between two poles when button is not pressed reads 13, but that means nothing because obviously it has to find ground somewhere, right?... ohms between positive pole and battery is .02 and between other pole (switched pole) is .02 ohms between it and ground... so could my starter be bad? how would i test that? usually they start making noises before they just go kaput... i don't know ill check here before work... otherwise i need it too soon, i may just take it to the shop (grimace with pain, i've never taken something to the dealership unless if was something for warranty, well once for an ac refill but thats because my buddy with a vac evacuator was out of town) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daword2011 Posted March 5, 2013 Author Share Posted March 5, 2013 so after some thought on how it acts i want an opinion... it has to be something related to the starter or relay correct? all of the electronics of the bike run parallel to the starter right? not like most older cars where the power has to go through the starter first? So if the bike is properly charging when running, then that means that the only time there is a short is when i push the starter button. which means maybe the starter is grounding itself out... ill try to jump from the battery to positive terminal of the starter tomorrow to see if it turns over, if not then i can assume that the starter is no bueno any more? But if it turns over then i'll look to the cable between the relay and starter, then back to the relay. see if i can get some sleep and come back to it tomorrow... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 Stupid question time: Are you sure you looked at all of the fuses? I had a problem with my ST3 that turned out to be a burnt-out fuse in a place I'd never known there to be fuses. Nothing like playing with electrical issues 2 hours away from home... in the middle of that Bastrop fire. Ughh. But right up until your last post I was going to suggest directly applying the battery to the starter and see what happens. 'Course I would also suggest taking the battery in to get it load tested even though you can be pretty sure it isn't the battery, just to be cautious. About the only usefull thing I can add is that it can't hurt to pull every electrical connection, clean them up real good, and pack connectors with dielectric grease. Parts stores sell an "electrical contact cleaner" spray stuff that's worked pretty well for me in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daword2011 Posted March 5, 2013 Author Share Posted March 5, 2013 Stupid question time: Are you sure you looked at all of the fuses? I had a problem with my ST3 that turned out to be a burnt-out fuse in a place I'd never known there to be fuses. Nothing like playing with electrical issues 2 hours away from home... in the middle of that Bastrop fire. Ughh. But right up until your last post I was going to suggest directly applying the battery to the starter and see what happens. 'Course I would also suggest taking the battery in to get it load tested even though you can be pretty sure it isn't the battery, just to be cautious. About the only usefull thing I can add is that it can't hurt to pull every electrical connection, clean them up real good, and pack connectors with dielectric grease. Parts stores sell an "electrical contact cleaner" spray stuff that's worked pretty well for me in the past. im going to work on it some more tonight to see if i can get it going Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daword2011 Posted March 5, 2013 Author Share Posted March 5, 2013 Maybe I have 2 shitty batteries... Does napa, etc do load testing? And could there be a constant draw from the system? Ie leaking? I think you test by measuring current between ground cable to neg post on battery right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 best way to Load Test a battery, is in the bike. You already have a multi-meter, so set it on the 20 VDC setting and put the leads on the battery terminals while trying to start the bike. If voltage drops below 9.5 volts under starter load, the battery is no good. If it drops to 11.5 or so (normal drop) or if it does not drop at all ... and still does not start, you have a problem somewhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daword2011 Posted March 5, 2013 Author Share Posted March 5, 2013 But couldn't a short be draining the battery? Well I'm going to get the batteries load tested just to rule it out. They're both fully charged so lets hope they aren't screwed up... If they're fail the load test then could my bike could be killing them? Or do you think they're just bad? Because if it's killing the batteries then trouble shooting could become expensive... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 just be carefull that they use a tester specific to motorcycle batteries only. If they use an automotive tester, it will most likely fail regardless. That is why it is always better to test in the bike. Takes 2 seconds, and is very accurate. Worst case, get a technician at a motorcycle shop to test, not the high school kid behind the auto parts counter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daword2011 Posted March 5, 2013 Author Share Posted March 5, 2013 just be carefull that they use a tester specific to motorcycle batteries only. If they use an automotive tester, it will most likely fail regardless. That is why it is always better to test in the bike. Takes 2 seconds, and is very accurate. Worst case, get a technician at a motorcycle shop to test, not the high school kid behind the auto parts counter. both batteries passed on the bench but with your method failed on the bike. Bike test was invalid because i believe there is a short somewhere. here is how the test went, the local guy that i know at napa that knows what he is doing looks up the CCA for the battery that i bring in, he sets the tester to that value and tests... battery tested 2xx CCA which is more then enough, and in fact more then the battery is rated for so boom good battery. Now back in the bike with the original battery. key off volts 12.7 awesome, key to ignition, no lights, no hum and clock goes away reads .2 volts. took the negative terminal off of the battery and tested amps flowing from terminal to neg cable, read 4.3 amps... there is no way it is drawing that much is there? anyway now on to relay, unlike last night now there is no lights at all, like a massive short or clog. I turn ignition on and go to relay, there is .2 volts at cable going to battery, 0 to one going to starter, press starter button and i get .2 volts across the relay... power into relay that runs parallel for everything, .2 volts in, two signal wires from button on handlebar read .2 volts when button is pressed... could i have a bad positive cable somewhere? so confusing... chasing my tail like a confused dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 How bad did the battery fail in the bike, what was the voltage ? I have seen batteries with a broken connection inside act normal, until even any type of real load was applied to it. What happens is that the connection is touching enough to get voltage, but then opens up and disconnects when even a headlight wattage is applied to it. this would show up as 0.0 volts. If using a digital battery tester, it will not open up. It will look normal. Problem is, it is rare, and for you to have TWO of them, is not likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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