Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Monk

Dealing with E10 fuel

Recommended Posts

Canook

Yeah Tell my 100,000 mile working Cat and 02 sensors, been using since a vfr Baby

You better find some better info.

I would say VFRCan"s information is quite a bit more researched, accurate and credible than "Yeah Tell my 100,000 mile working Cat and 02 sensors". Maybe you can explain your process in determining that your Cat and sensors are in perfect working condition.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have owned my $120 Murray lawnmower since 2001 and it has run nothing but E10 fuels since we live in an emissions non-compliance area.

My 2-gallon gas can sometimes goes all winter and into the summer before I add new fuel; my fuel purchase is not necessarily seasonal or annual.

It sits for months. No leaks, no backfires, no issues. I change the oil, I change the spark plug, and every once and a while I change the blade... it just works.

Ethanol may be completely unnecessary in the grand scheme of things, but it isn't necessarily the bad guy, either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Canook

Yeah Tell my 100,000 mile working Cat and 02 sensors, been using since a vfr Baby

You better find some better info.

I would say VFRCan"s information is quite a bit more researched, accurate and credible than "Yeah Tell my 100,000 mile working Cat and 02 sensors". Maybe you can explain your process in determining that your Cat and sensors are in perfect working condition.

The ultimate is hooking up an exhaust analyzer, this requires running a few tanks of regular to blow out all residual LD snowflakes. Also damaged 02 senser would cause error codes, and flaky operation.

Its not my place to debate( i dont care really), someone pointing an encyclopedia results with no practical application is meaningless to me Ive read the stuff too, obviously some prefer unproven snake oil products they really cant tell if its doing anything, My results are far from guessing, its been through internal inspection, valves, Plugs , piston, crowns, exhausts ect or 100's of thousands of miles, including oil analysis, LD powder does show up in the oil.

As to those who say e10 is perfect never have any issue, do you know how many different types of pump e10 fuels are in Canada? I can say there are atleast a dosen different formulations of e10 from state to state in the U.S., some of the worst in California and some of the oxegenated in the far North. Point is there are e10's out there some better than others, Personally I just dont want the crap.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One thing often forgotten about with ethanol blended fuel is phase separation. When moisture (usually humidity in the air or condensation on the inner walls of the tank) comes in contact with the fuel, the ethanol absorbs water until it reaches the saturation point at which time it phase separates and comes out of solution. It depends on many variables including relative humidity and temperature, so some users can have no issues while others find water and sludge at the bottom of the tank after sitting over the winter. Users of Stabil and StarTron forestall this process (I'm not sure about Seafoam) and end up keeping the system far freer of any crud. StarTron claims it can rejuvinate fuel, tho the best bet is prevention. For engines run on a regular basis it's rarely an issue. Since my riding is seasonal, I treat any fuel I expect to sit more than 30 days.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Monk, you really opened up a can of worms with this one. It's like an oil thread, only different!

Chuck

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Monk, you really opened up a can of worms with this one. It's like an oil thread, only different!

Chuck

But had I not, the worms would have died :laughing6-hehe:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Monk, you really opened up a can of worms with this one. It's like an oil thread, only different!

Chuck

But had I not, the worms would have died :laughing6-hehe:

Now you're going to start a debate on the effects of ethanol on worms. :lurk:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I flipped the TV on last night and Power Boat TV was on and guess what one of the segments was about?

E10 fuels in boats.

They said any engine or fuel system built since 1995 will run E10 with no problem. Before that if might dry out fuel lines. They killed a bunch of myths as well. Like the one how it will draw water out of the air, which it will not.

One thing they did say is you will need to change you fuel filters more often. Because Ethanol is a solvent aka cleaner. So it cleans the slug and crap from the fuel system. Which could explain why some people see brown exhaust screens, it's the dirt in the fuel system being cleaned out and burnt by the engine. So I guess if your bike doesn't have a fuel filter might be a good idea to add one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Monk, you really opened up a can of worms with this one. It's like an oil thread, only different!

Chuck

You could say the thread is more refined.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I flipped the TV on last night and Power Boat TV was on and guess what one of the segments was about?

E10 fuels in boats.

They said any engine or fuel system built since 1995 will run E10 with no problem. Before that if might dry out fuel lines. They killed a bunch of myths as well. Like the one how it will draw water out of the air, which it will not.

One thing they did say is you will need to change you fuel filters more often. Because Ethanol is a solvent aka cleaner. So it cleans the slug and crap from the fuel system. Which could explain why some people see brown exhaust screens, it's the dirt in the fuel system being cleaned out and burnt by the engine. So I guess if your bike doesn't have a fuel filter might be a good idea to add one.

That could explain why my Jeep(94) sounds better using my snakeoil(MMO), where I can't tell the diff' with my bike(08)???

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Monk, you really opened up a can of worms with this one. It's like an oil thread, only different!

Chuck

You could say the thread is more refined.

:tongue: "Refined" For the $$$$ they want you'd think.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They said any engine or fuel system built since 1995 will run E10 with no problem. Before that if might dry out fuel lines. They killed a bunch of myths as well. Like the one how it will draw water out of the air, which it will not.

So I'm riding the fence since my VFR is a '95 model? But since the same 4th Gen engine was used '94-'97, would that mean mine is okay?

Chuck

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So I'm riding the fence since my VFR is a '95 model? But since the same 4th Gen engine was used '94-'97, would that mean mine is okay?

Chuck

Good question as the show was talking about boats, so not sure when the switch was made for bikes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One thing they did say is you will need to change you fuel filters more often. Because Ethanol is a solvent aka cleaner. So it cleans the slug and crap from the fuel system. Which could explain why some people see brown exhaust screens, it's the dirt in the fuel system being cleaned out and burnt by the engine. So I guess if your bike doesn't have a fuel filter might be a good idea to add one.

This may be part of the issue right here, if it is cleaning the tank and upper part of the fuel system, then you let the bike sit and fuel evaporates from the bowls, that dirt is now sitting in your jets and bowls.

I have heard this discussion on a couple of sites, and I have no idea what the truth is. I bought my '95 VFR wrecked and sitting for two years in a garage, and when I took the carbs off, they were nasty and completely clogged. But I have a '70 Cutlass that is waiting restoration that has at least 10 year old gas in it and I can put a fresh battery in it and crank it up and it runs and idles fine. I bought my '89 Wagoneer 3 years ago that sat under a pine tree for two years, had it running without a carb rebuild (I have since swapped in a 4 barrel).

I have a gas station a few miles away that sells ethanol free gas, I try to use it in my motorcycles, mowers and chainsaws all the time. About half the time I use it in my Alfas, and on occasion I use it in my old Jeep. It is about 15 cents a gallon more, but I think the fuel mileage makes it about a wash. I do use a little Seafoam in all my small engines and seasonally in my Alfas and motorcycles, I don't worry about it as much in the Jeep because the intake and carb are only a little over a year old.

I think the next discussion should be Zinc in the Oil to protect the valve shim caps. :tongue:

One thing I do know, the gas station down the street as ethonal free racing fuel and it smells good!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So I'm riding the fence since my VFR is a '95 model? But since the same 4th Gen engine was used '94-'97, would that mean mine is okay?

Yes, all Honda motorcycles from >=1990 have no problem using E10.

Same for Triumph and Yamaha, HD: all models after 1980.

Ther is a VFRD member from Brasil (with a VTEC) and Brasil has had >20% percent ethanol for years. I never heard him about ill effects of using high ethanol mix fuel.

For winter storage E10 is better than E5 is it can absorb more water, of course ethanol free is even better but over here not available anymore.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry guys, but the speed channel is at least partly full of shit, ethanol is ABSOLUTELY hygroscopic. Meaning it can and will absorb moisture from the atmosphere.

And most manafacturers stopped using rubbers that get attacked by ethanol long before they actually started putting it in our regular gas. All our soft parts in the fuel system are made of Viton and are impervious to ethanol.

Most of the info out there on Ethanol is bunk speculation from people who do nothing but read other peoples opinions and repeat what they heard. I know of several cars made in the early 90's that have been running E85 on stock fuel systems for years without issue. When you think about it, if they can do it with 85, 10% isn't gonna cause us any problems besides 3-4% power loss.

Small engines can have problems with it because they make 5hp and less, and it gets magnified because they have no mechanism for ignition advance. which a less combustible fuel needs more of than gasoline.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry guys, but the speed channel is at least partly full of shit, ethanol is ABSOLUTELY hygroscopic. Meaning it can and will absorb moisture from the atmosphere.

Half right, It will absorb water yes. But water it comes in contact with. It will not absorb the moisture right out of the atmosphere, if that was the case, fuel tanks at the gas station would have vacuum sealed with a layer of dried air to keep the fuel from turning in to water.

It will however phase separate, meaning it will bond with water and separate out of the gas sinking to the bottom of your fuel tank. Only need like an ounce of water in 10 gallons of fuel to make it to this and no way to put it back together once it happens. Drain flush repeat if that happens.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You see, the problem is, I KNOW it will absorb water from the air. You aren't sure so you're googling. And now you're making me do work and search for proof, and I'm lazy and don't like to work

http://www.eejitsguides.com/environment/ethanol-fuel.html

Please read the fourth paragraph.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You see, the problem is, I KNOW it will absorb water from the air. You aren't sure so you're googling. And now you're making me do work and search for proof, and I'm lazy and don't like to work

http://www.eejitsgui...hanol-fuel.html

Please read the fourth paragraph.

HA I out lazied you, got you to look it up so I didn't have too :schla15:

But no its wasn't a Google search I was taking about, it was just on an episode of Power Boat TV, but I can't provide it, as it was a new episode and its not up on their site for online viewing....

But I read your link, and did some other searching, and they all seem to say the same thing, meaning what I saw came from a guy on crack... The only upside they say it takes around 30-90 days of being open to the air before it becomes an issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only reason this thread even exists is that strong agricultural state lobbyists were successful in convincing our pompous and righteous federal government protectors of all mankind and society that ethanol was a good thing to put into gasoline. Key word: lobbyists. It requires more btu's of energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than there are btu's in a gallon of ethanol. That's called bad math and stupid populist government policy.

Given that gasoline does produce more power per gallon, it requires fewer gallons of fuel to travel a given distance thus lowering "pollution" by using less overall fuel than we are using now. That's called correct math.

Any way you put it, gasoline is a better fuel than a mix of ethanol and gasoline. The corn farmers like it but this country's agricultural system has, in truth, been a welfare system for decades. I prefer gasoline because it works better, costs less, and pollutes less compared to ethanol production and use, after all is said and done. It's just simple math.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bent the last time I checked a U.S fuel map, Iowa the Biggest corn Producer, was running standard fuel no e10, they have their cake and eating it too, they dont want that crap either LOL!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only reason this thread even exists is that strong agricultural state lobbyists were successful in convincing our pompous and righteous federal government protectors of all mankind and society that ethanol was a good thing to put into gasoline. Key word: lobbyists. It requires more btu's of energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than there are btu's in a gallon of ethanol. That's called bad math and stupid populist government policy.

Given that gasoline does produce more power per gallon, it requires fewer gallons of fuel to travel a given distance thus lowering "pollution" by using less overall fuel than we are using now. That's called correct math.

Any way you put it, gasoline is a better fuel than a mix of ethanol and gasoline. The corn farmers like it but this country's agricultural system has, in truth, been a welfare system for decades. I prefer gasoline because it works better, costs less, and pollutes less compared to ethanol production and use, after all is said and done. It's just simple math.

Thats mostly true, except for the pollution part, gasoline produces hydrocarbons and NOx gasses when burnt, ethanol produces water vapor and co2. So it doesn't really pollute

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lets not turn this thing(my thread) in to a political thing and get it cancelled........... Thx.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lets not turn this thing(my thread) in to a political thing and get it cancelled........... Thx.

Right, we have a FaceBook page for that kind of talk ;)

Thats mostly true, except for the pollution part, gasoline produces hydrocarbons and NOx gasses when burnt, ethanol produces water vapor and co2. So it doesn't really pollute

Your right the fuel itself does not pollute. But you only get around 35 gallons of Ethanol per acre of corn. How much fuel do you think it takes to grow an acre of corn, harvest it and truck it to refining plant? Than the electricity to break the corn down and turn it in to fuel.

You have to look at the carbon footprint it takes to make the fuel. An electric car produces zero emissions. However the carbon footprint produced during the manufacturing and disposal process of the battery, creates a bigger carbon footprint than what a gas power car of the same size does over the course of its life.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest ilium007

My local BMW motorcycle mechanic showed me an in tank fuel pump he pulled out of a Speed Triple that had been basically eaten away by Ethanol fuel to the point the wiring was bare and ready to cause some KABOOM ! Scared the hell out of me !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy.