Jump to content

Dealing with E10 fuel


Monk

Recommended Posts

I noticed on the new apps thread there is an app for finding non-ethanol fuel in local areas(if there are any to be found).

As it stands now there are very few left and "those ppl that do what they do" are in the process of trying to go to E15 which hasn't happened yet(with the help of the AMA).

So I didn't want to get off topic in the apps thread (which I can see when a interesting app is brought up, the potential to get side tracked on the off spring of what the apps for can be tempting).

That being said, I think it would be nice to locate pure gas, but that's very limited to find even with the help of the app. So what can we do in the mean time. I use an additive in the gas to help lub the fuel system to retard the effects of the drying effects of the ethanol. There may be more products that do this but I just use one I feel works. Octane boost is not it.

I'm not getting anything from this stuff, And I couldn't sware it works, but it's suppose to lub the top end where the gas is used. I do know my older Jeep runs smoother using it, and my lawnmower. As far as the bike it's such a powerful engine that it's hard to see the difference, but I believe it helps.

"Marvel Mystery Oil"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Two words Leaded Race fuel, it offers Real results, completely decarbonises, Piston crowns, Valves , exhaust o2 sensors , Cat , tail pipes, lubricates fuel pumps and valve seat. cylinder walls ect . Cup or 2 pertank.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer

Monk, do you use Marvel all the time/every tank full? If so, how much do you use per gallon? I use an ounce of Seafoam/gal regularly. Not sure if it helps with the E10 issue or not though.

Chuck

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Two words Leaded Race fuel, it offers Real results, completely decarbonises, Piston crowns, Valves , exhaust o2 sensors , Cat , tail pipes, lubricates fuel pumps and valve seat. cylinder walls ect . Cup or 2 pertank.

Leaded fuel poisons Catalytic Converters:

http://en.wikipedia....onverter#Damage

Not good for O2 sensors either:

http://en.wikipedia....i/Oxygen_sensor

The materials in modern fuel injected vehicles are meant to withstand Ethanol in gasolines without any worries.

There is less thermal energy in Ethanol, so horsepower will suffer slightly, but there should not be any damage.

I have been running Ethanol blended fuel in my 800 ever since I bought it, 12 years and 80,000 kilometers ago, with no ill effects to the fuel injection system or engine itself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer

The difference between pure gas and E10 in my 4th gen was going from 50mpg easy to maybe 42mpg. Haven't had any running issues though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is approximately 33% less energy in a gallon of ethanol Vs a gallon of gasoline.

All else being equal, identical vehicles running on Ethanol Vs gas would expect to see about a 1/3 reduction in fuel economy.

However, all else is NOT equal. Vehicles designed for ethanol (the new flex-fuel types) use higher compression ratios and more ignition advance, as ethanol has a higher octane rating than gasoline. Also the ECU in a flex-fuel vehicle compensates for the type of fuel being used via the air/fuel ratios and knock sensors, constantly adjusting the engine parameters to utilize the type of fuel in the tank most efficiently.

With E10, one would expect only about a 3-4% reduction in BTU/gallon over regular gasoline. Therefore the fuel economy on a non-flex fuel vehicle would likely suffer a similar amount, given similar driving habits.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fuel economy

In theory, all fuel-driven vehicles have a fuel economy (measured as miles per US gallon, or liters per 100 km) that is directly proportional to the fuel's energy content.[54] In reality, there are many other variables that come into play that affect the performance of a particular fuel in a particular engine. Ethanol contains approx. 34% less energy per unit volume than gasoline, and therefore in theory, burning pure ethanol in a vehicle will result in a 34% reduction in miles per US gallon, given the same fuel economy, compared to burning pure gasoline. Since ethanol has a higher octane rating, the engine can be made more efficient by raising its compression ratio. In fact using a variable turbocharger, the compression ratio can be optimized for the fuel being used, making fuel economy almost constant for any blend.[25][26] For E10 (10% ethanol and 90% gasoline), the effect is small (~3%) when compared to conventional gasoline,[55] and even smaller (1-2%) when compared to oxygenated and reformulated blends.[56] For E85 (85% ethanol), the effect becomes significant. E85 will produce lower mileage than gasoline, and will require more frequent refueling. Actual performance may vary depending on the vehicle. Based on EPA tests for all 2006 E85 models, the average fuel economy for E85 vehicles resulted 25.56% lower than unleaded gasoline.[57] The EPA-rated mileage of current USA flex-fuel vehicles[58] should be considered when making price comparisons, but E85 is a high performance fuel, with an octane rating of about 94-96, and should be compared to premium.[59] In one estimate[60] the US retail price for E85 ethanol is 2.62 US dollar per gallon or 3.71 dollar corrected for energy equivalency compared to a gallon of gasoline priced at 3.03 dollar. Brazilian cane ethanol (100%) is priced at 3.88 dollar against 4.91 dollar for E25 (as July 2007).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer

Monk, there are no E10 issues or even E15 issues to worry about with your bike.

The 6th gen VFR is CARB2012 compliant, and part of that certification is the ability to operate with fuels that have ethanol levels up to 15% without harming the engine or fuel system.

There was talked all winter on my snowmobile forum about ethanol fuels and 2stroke engines, so I've been doing a lot of reading in to the subject already.

The only thing you might see, is a small decrease in power, maybe a HP or two, and a few less miles per tank as the ethanol burns cleaner but doesn't have BTUs like good old dino based fuels.

And don't go kidding yourself thinking by putting premium fuel in your tank you'll get ethanol free fuel. Search the net, you'll find that to make premium fuel they add about 6% ethanol along with other additives to boost the octane number, so even if the pump says Ethanol free, their permium will have some in it. Oh premium fuel actually produces less power than good old 87 regular does. So if your running it your stock 800 your wasting your money and robbing yourself of power.

But don't take my word for read the truth for yourself.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/auto-news/tech/premium-fuel-futures

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline#section_3

The real reason for the push to E15 fuel is because Ethanol is an octane enhancer. This means they can mix it with lower quality less refined fuel yet still maintain the same octane levels. It's not the ethanol that is hard on your fuel system. It's the crap fuel they are mixing with it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ethanol, after its all added up, has no cost/performance/emissions/mileage advantage over straight gas. Unless your running forced induction, but that's a serperate subject.

I use a splash of StarTron in ever fill up. Low end is now much smoother and the bike runs great. Highly recommend.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Two words Leaded Race fuel, it offers Real results, completely decarbonises, Piston crowns, Valves , exhaust o2 sensors , Cat , tail pipes, lubricates fuel pumps and valve seat. cylinder walls ect . Cup or 2 pertank.

I have been running Ethanol blended fuel in my 800 ever since I bought it, 12 years and 80,000 kilometers ago, with no ill effects to the fuel injection system or engine itself.

ive seen horrible effects in all my lawnmowers , weedeaters and blowers from ethonal fuel, ethonal attacks rubber(gas leaks). and when it absorbs water which is what e10 is good for, then Performance goes to Crap. The gas goes stale %75 faster.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Monk, do you use Marvel all the time/every tank full? If so, how much do you use per gallon? I use an ounce of Seafoam/gal regularly. Not sure if it helps with the E10 issue or not though.

Chuck

I use about 1 or 2 ounces per tank, and about every 2nd/3rd tank.

Seafoam I use a few ounces every 2 / 4 months, Or if it feels like it might need some(water in the "ground tank"). Also will use some SF in the oil prior to draining my sump(run it about 30 miles with 2/4 ounces).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lawnmowers weedeaters and blowers are not engineered with the same quality/materials spec of the fuel system components as are modern fuel injected vehicles. So yes I would expect to see problems in those applications.

Certain materials commonly used with gasoline may be incompatible with high-level ethanol blends, causing them to degrade and contaminate the fuel. Metals that have been shown to degrade over time in the presence of high-level alcohol blends include brass, lead, zinc and lead-based solder. Nonmetallic materials that degrade when in contact with ethanol include natural rubber, polyurethane, cork gasket material, leather, polyvinyl chloride (PVC) polyamides, and certain thermoplastic or thermoset polymers.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Monk, there are no E10 issues or even E15 issues to worry about with your bike.

The 6th gen VFR is CARB2012 compliant, and part of that certification is the ability to operate with fuels that have ethanol levels up to 15% without harming the engine or fuel system.

But don't take my word for read the truth for yourself.

http://www.roadandtr...um-fuel-futures

http://en.m.wikipedi...oline#section_3

The real reason for the push to E15 fuel is because Ethanol is an octane enhancer. This means they can mix it with lower quality less refined fuel yet still maintain the same octane levels. It's not the ethanol that is hard on your fuel system. It's the crap fuel they are mixing with it.

I use the regular fuel... So you're saying that it "won't" harm my '08(dry out) any rubber/plastic parts ? That's the reason I use it........ (I'll also read your links)....Thx.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Any modern fuel injected vehicle will operate without difficulty on e-10 as the materials selected in the fuel systems are compatible with ethanol, whereas cheap garden equipment is not necessarily so.

On the other hand, unplated steel, nickel-plated steel, stainless steel, black iron and bronze have shown resistance to ethanol corrosion, with nonmetallic materials like reinforced fiberglass, Buna-N, Neoprene rubber, polypropylene, nitrile rubber, Viton and Teflon meeting acceptable usage standards with E85.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I prefer ethanol free for winter storage (bike or boat) and for daily use in my Duc, which has a plastic tank. There was a recently settled class action lawsuit against Ducati for their plastic tanks which have been subject to swelling, presumably because of ethanol fuels. KTM has suffered similar problems. However, performance wise, I don't notice a difference except perhaps in mpg. You can check the following website for ethanol free fuel in your area.

http://pure-gas.org/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also some anecdotal information:

My 1994 fuel injected ford ranger, 232,000 kilometers on it, bought at 185,000 kilometers, been running ethanol blended fuel for as long as I've had it and probably quite some time before that, zero fuel system issues.

Four different minivans (one dodge, three toyotas) in our family over the last fifteen years, zero fuel system issues running ethanol gasoline.

500,000 kilometers total on those four vans, and the latest one still going strong at 110,000 km on the clock (2004 Toyota sienna) with zero fuel system issues.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer

I use the regular fuel... So you're saying that it "won't" harm my '08(dry out) any rubber/plastic parts ? That's the reason I use it........ (I'll also read your links)....Thx.

Right...

My 07 sits for 5 months a year during winter storage. All I do is fill the tank and add some stable and cover the bike up. If anyone would have to worry about fuel lines drying up and cracking it would be those of us who have long winter storage time to deal with. How many topics are on the board for fuel line replacement work due to dried out lines?

My 04 snowmobile sits even longer because ridig season for it is 3 months or less and it's problem free.

My dad's 1980 CB750 custom that he has had since 1987 still has the same fuel lines on it since the day he bought it.

Ethanol is not the big evil everyone makes it out to be. In most cases..... ;)

The plastic fuel tank thing its a is a fault in the type of plastic used that wasn't fuel friendly, the manufactors cheaped out to save money and got bit in the rear end over it. CBRs have had plastic fuel tanks for years problem free.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I use the regular fuel... So you're saying that it "won't" harm my '08(dry out) any rubber/plastic parts ? That's the reason I use it........ (I'll also read your links)....Thx.

Right...

Thx, Dave .......
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its not the design, its the fuel degrading if not used, if e10 sits. It will turn brown within a month.

Its more fuel becoming stale than lack of design

Ive had alot of trouble with anything that doesnt see alot of use, doesnt matter if Auto, weedeater or other. I havent had any bike issues with e10, cause it runs multi tanks per week, plus its not on 100% e10 so it doesnt have all the carbon buildup issues either, that enthonal has.

I had a bike one time, there was a screen in the muffler that was supposed to be cleaned every 11,000 miles. I checked it and yep, going to have to clean it, full of black carbon. half tank of leaded race fuel , you could eat off the metal it was so clean afterwards. Course Thats too much for a Catted MC but a cup or two on regular bases there is no soot at all in your exhaust, because the LRFuel eats carbon like crazy. Even the plugs I ran 53,000 miles where totally carbonless, but totally shot from electrical wear.

But Im much aware of Internet negative cat ,02 and Lead information, But as far as what I use , they know their A$$ from hole, Ive got several hundred thousand miles on the stuff, and pushing 100,000 mile on the VFR alone CAT and 02'd.

But there's no snake oil on the shelve that offeres the benefits of VPc12. But I know alot of people really believe in that greasy Kerosene they call Marvel mistery oil.

Most o2's and cats stop working cause they get plugged up with carbon, thats the real death to those.

On a side note, Nascar band Lead use a couple years ago, they started having alot of engine failures so they allowed it back. I'll put my motor up against anyones with the same milege, and I guarantee mine will be far more pristine in wear and internal cleaniliness from fuel pump to tail pipe.

Edited by spud786
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer

Its not the design, its the fuel degrading if not used, if e10 sits. It will turn brown within a month.

It's not the Ethanol that causes this it's the cheap pooly refined fuel they mix it with. My bike sat for 5 months in winter storage and when I drained the tank few weeks ago ( to check the air box for mice) the gas look just the same as it did when I put it in last fall.

Like I said Ethanol is not the evil. It's the cheap low quality fuel they mix with it. This is why people like the AMA and the car compaies are fighting against E15. Because it means cheap dirty fuel on the market plugging up fuel systems and causing millions in warranty work.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy.