Beck Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 I guess Honda considers tham as "stretch bolts" where they can only be tensioned at the specified torque once and must be replaced the next time they are loosened. I reused mine on my motorcycles bikes already and I'm still alive......but of course, I cannot recommend doing so too if Honda notes in their service manuals to replace them every time you loosen them.....so do it at your own risk.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer MaxSwell Posted October 12, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted October 12, 2012 I am trying to figure which bolts these are. Front brake caliper fiche calls for six of these: BOLT, FLANGE (8X45) 90135-MAJ-G41 . Fiche ref # 32. Are these to fasten the calipers to the front fork? Only two bolts hold each caliper to the forks. Right? Here is a link: http://www.masoncityhonda.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=2091428&category=Motorcycles&make=HONDA&year=2001&fveh=124317 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rice Posted October 12, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted October 12, 2012 I am also still alive. But then, I've never used a torque wrench on those bolts Take this "advise" at your own risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer FJ12Ryder Posted October 12, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted October 12, 2012 I don't replace them. It may be that they recommend replacing them purely for liability reasons. They don't tighten down enough to "stretch" IMO. I can't remember if they have lock tight on them. Maybe that's the reason, if they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kaldek Posted October 12, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted October 12, 2012 No, No, No! Honda says to replace these bolts because they come from the factory with thread locker on them. That's all! They do not stretch, they just should use thread locker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer MaxSwell Posted October 12, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted October 12, 2012 No, No, No! Honda says to replace these bolts because they come from the factory with thread locker on them. That's all! They do not stretch, they just should use thread locker. I recall there was some plastic wrapped around the end of the threads when I removed mine. So Lok-tite is a reasonable substitute? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NakedViffer Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Just for the record, all bolts stretch, its how they exert clamping force. Its a permanent deformation thats bad. and all bolts are capable of that as well. But without a length measurement to start with, theres no way to tell if theres any permanent stretch.. ARP says to trash any of their fasteners that have deformed .001" or more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer FJ12Ryder Posted October 12, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted October 12, 2012 Saying all bolts stretch and that is how they clamp is... uh...stretching it. Steel bolts in an aluminum threaded part are not really going to stretch. The threads in the aluminum may deform, but I doubt that the steel bolt will stretch. Steel bolts in a steel part would be a different story. But hey, I could be wrong. Some older Volkwagens recommended that head bolts be replaced after they have stretched a certain amount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer motormike Posted October 12, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted October 12, 2012 I am trying to figure which bolts these are. Front brake caliper fiche calls for six of these: BOLT, FLANGE (8X45) 90135-MAJ-G41 . Fiche ref # 32. Are these to fasten the calipers to the front fork? Only two bolts hold each caliper to the forks. Right? Here is a link: http://www.masoncity...001&fveh=124317 I was looking at that exact fiche out of curiosty but couldn't determine which bolt they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Duc2V4 Posted October 12, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted October 12, 2012 I've always just used lock-tite on nuts/bolts that are more likely going to come loose and/or on an important part like a brake caliper. The only "new" items I for sure will put on are crush washers and seals. Of course if the bolt and or thread looks deformed I will replace the item. This can be costly if the threads happen to be on a part like the fork leg. But in those cases I have just used a heli-coil or drilled out and re-tapped the hole with a larger bolt size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NakedViffer Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Saying all bolts stretch and that is how they clamp is... uh...stretching it. Steel bolts in an aluminum threaded part are not really going to stretch. The threads in the aluminum may deform, but I doubt that the steel bolt will stretch. Steel bolts in a steel part would be a different story. But hey, I could be wrong. Some older Volkwagens recommended that head bolts be replaced after they have stretched a certain amount. Aluminum threads and steel fasteners have no bearing on the fact. Look at the VFR's aluminum engine block and it has steel head bolts, and I promise they stretch by design. If you look at an aftermarket fastener company, they list a spec for their fasteners for how much stretch will provide maximum clamping force. Measuring the stretch of a fastener is actually a much more accurate way of measuring clamping force compared to using a using a torque wrench, and in the engine building world, using a stretch gauge on the rod bolts(the single most important fastener in the engine) has become the standard for serious engine builders, it is a much more reliable method of torquing the bolt. With the VW head-bolt recommendation, its because most manufacturers use what you call a 'torque to yield' bolt, and they are designed to be torqued once only and not re-used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamworth Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 In reality, these caliper bolts never come loose, loctite or no loctite. I don't even use a torque wrench on them any more, I just be sure they're not being over-tightened and I'm good to go. I never give them a thought because I know they will never come loose. The bolts on the 1200 radial mounted calipers are even more stubby and thread farther into the alu than previous VFRs. I have no issues reusing them for the life of the bike. Although there is no stress on them during braking on the 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeromagic Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Motormike, the bolts you're looking for are (I believe) items 29 and 31. The drawing's a bit confusing for sure. I've never had to replace the right hand side bolts, but did replace the left hand caliper holder to fork leg bolts because they were very inexpensive. Cheaper to buy the two bolts than a small pack of threadlocker. I think Kaldek's right - the manual calls them an ALOC bolt. I think it refers to a locking compound on the threads. They're a steel bolt threading into aluminum so I can't imagine them being a torque to yeild... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spud786 Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 If you want to replace them go ahead, its not necessary, a drop of loctite to meet the oem spec is good though. I think torgue is around 22 ftlb. Personally Ive never had caliper mounting bolts fail on any bike, and never replace them as a preventative, without good reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer motormike Posted October 13, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted October 13, 2012 Just got back from a ride without Loctite on my used caliper bolts and new tires. I didn't die. Damn, the VFR is fun to ride! \m/ \m/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer vfrcapn Posted October 13, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted October 13, 2012 If you want to replace them go ahead, its not necessary, a drop of loctite to meet the oem spec is good though. I think torgue is around 22 ftlb. Personally Ive never had caliper mounting bolts fail on any bike, and never replace them as a preventative, without good reason. I reuse too and apply blue loctite, but I do clean off the old loctite before reinstalling. Wire wheel on the bolt and clean out the threads in the caliper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veefer800Canuck Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 I have never replaced calliper bolts with new since 1984 and I'm still here, FWIW. When I grafted the RC51 front end on my bike, I didn't have the necessary OEM fasteners for the triple clamps and brakes, so I used the best bolts money can buy, grade 12.9 metric Allen head bolts. Plenty strong. I use blue locktite and torque 'em to spec. Never had an issue. Don't use stainless steel bolts for critical chassis fasteners like forks brakes shocks etc. stainless has less tensile strength than regular steel. Bad deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer MBrane Posted October 13, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted October 13, 2012 I just replaced my caliper bolts with grade 12 hex heads. The stock bolts were visibly stretched at 50K. A dab of blue locktite, torque to spec, good to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveM Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Saying all bolts stretch and that is how they clamp is... uh...stretching it. Steel bolts in an aluminum threaded part are not really going to stretch. The threads in the aluminum may deform, but I doubt that the steel bolt will stretch. Steel bolts in a steel part would be a different story. But hey, I could be wrong. Some older Volkwagens recommended that head bolts be replaced after they have stretched a certain amount. Steel bolts in alu do strech. In fact, for the steel bolts in the alu rods in our drag bikes you don't torque them, you use a micrometer and tighten them to a strech length (and replace the bolts with every use). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenshenrik Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 I also reuse the bolts, an apply some Loctite 246 (medium strength) :) It's VERY important to rember the Loctite, as the caliper bolts can be loose with the risk of a serious crash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEBSPEED Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 I have never replaced them. As far as I can tell, the only reason they say to replace is for the factory loctite. Torque spec is 23lb-ft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer JZH Posted October 16, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted October 16, 2012 I hope that's a typo and you don't actually increase the torque to compensate for lubricated threads... Ciao, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer JZH Posted October 16, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted October 16, 2012 Right. Maybe someone can answer some questions for me... 1. Why does Honda specify visually very different fasteners when the "only difference" is that the ALOC ones come with factory thread-lock applied and the others don't? Have you looked at OEM ALOC fasteners and other OEM fasteners of the same size and compared them? Shouldn't they be the same fastener, just one with locking agent and the other not? 2. Are the ALOC fasteners the ONLY ones on the bike that are supposed to have threadlock on them? If not, why aren't the caliper fasteners just locktited upon assembly, like all the others? (A corollary: if the reason is "liability concerns", liability for what, exactly? What are these incessantly wheedling lawyers trying to accomplish--to sell more fasteners?) 3. Why do the ALOC fasteners have significantly higher torque values than regular OEM fasteners of the same size? Wouldn't the presence of threadlock REDUCE the suggested torque value, rather than increase it? I'm especially interested in the answer to the last one, because the only thing I can think of is that ALOC fasteners are designed to stretch significantly upon installation. I can see someone replacing the ALOC fasteners with stronger ones (a la canuck), but re-torquing already-stretched ALOC fasteners to the same (relatively high) torque value specified for new ones (and adding thread lubrication to boot!) doesn't seem like a good long-term strategy to me. [A previous thread for reference: VFRD, last year] Having just done a little Googling for other threads (!) on other boards on this topic I am astounded at the level of confidence expressed by some people about the "meaning of ALOC". It appears to be almost inverse to their actual knowledge on the subject. Obviously, "Add Loctite Or Crash" isn't a serious explanation, but how can they be so sure that ALOC means "a fastener with threadlock already applied", without any objective evidence whatsoever that that is actually the case? (I mean, apart from dozens of expert Netizens saying exactly the same thing.) Their reasoning appears to be the result of observing two things: #1, Honda has given a special name to these particular fasteners. #2, these fasteners all seem to have some sort of threadlock on them. The conclusion then drawn is that ALOC = threadlock. Hmmm. Is that really the only possible conclusion? Usual disclaimer: I'm not saying that ALOC fasteners will always fail if re-used. I know they don't, because I, like nearly everyone else in the world, have re-used them many times. Not only that, in my experience, even Honda dealers do not keep them in stock for every tire change for every bike they work on (I've tried to buy them), and last time I checked, brake calipers were not popping off bikes left and right. However, that is not the same thing as repeating over and over an explanation that is, at best, unproven and unsupported with actual knowledge and, at worst, completely false. Ciao, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forum CEO HispanicSlammer Posted October 16, 2012 Forum CEO Share Posted October 16, 2012 2 threads on the same exact topic? merged! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer CornerCarver Posted October 16, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted October 16, 2012 Anyone want to see a picture of a stretched caliper bolt? About to order some new fasteners for the 91 VFR750F..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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