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Front end conversion - was yours worth it ??


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Hi all,

 

Very new to this forum and only owned my VFR 5th gen for 3years now, but been a motorcyclist all my life and they've been my primary mode of transport for the past 20years. I always wanted to own a V4 and the 5th gen always seemed to get great reviews so decided to buy one to see what all the fuss was about.......That's the introduction over. 

 

Where do I start with the front end feel, or lack of, from my bike!! I've fitted a new Hagon rear shock (built to my weight) and have serviced my forks with new 7.5w oil (as factory) in the past month, I've also got new Pirelli Rosso II tyres on the beast and I replaced the head-bearings soon after buying the bike (and its only done 1000miles since) and there's no free play in the wheel or swingarm bearings. 

 

So the usual things that should be checked first when having front end issues are all done, however, the vague feeling from my VFR's front end still plague me. I'm not Barry Sheene (or Kenny Roberts for our American cousins), but I don't hang about either and although its been a few years since my last trackday, I used to sit comfortably in the fast group and could get my fat ass around the Nurburgring in under 8:30mins so, not bragging, I feel I can handle a bike at speed as well as the next guy.

 

The bike was bog stock when I bought it and had been loved by its previous owner who had been its sole owner before I came along, and has no signs that its ever been upside down or anything that could bend it out of shape.

 

The issue I have is the rebound has absolutely no damping (or at least feels that way). I was a fanatical subscriber to Performance Bikes magazine in the UK (now part of Practical Sportsbike) and started with their suggestions for suspension settings which was preload fully in; which was to be frank, fooking dangerous. I've since started to back it off and I'm now at 7full turns out, which is between the 2nd and 3rd indicator line on the preload adjusters. I've also dropped the yokes through the forks by 6mm (which is 45mm through from top of yoke, where Haynes magazine states factory is 39mm). Finally, I've lifted the clip-ons and turned them outwards to increase leverage and all of this has helped the bike turn in and improve the feel, but the bike still has this "vagueness" in what the front tyre is doing. The forks will wallow on some turns and it runs wide once back on the gas as the turn is completed. I'm going to try heavier weight oil in the forks to see if this helps slow the rebound down a bit but I'm not convinced it'll do much if anything.

 

So I'm now beginning to consider new fork internals and as I have Maxton shock and fork internals on my 2005 SV1000s which is my track bike, I thought I'd speak to them first.

 

All of this is a very rambling, round-about way of asking, has anyone had the Maxton GP20 cartridges fitted to their 4th, 5th or 6th gen VFR. The GP20 upgrade cartridges currently retail at £420 inc VAT so its a substantial outlay for a £2K, 20year old machine that only gets used 2-3K miles a year, so would like to hear any opinions from those who've splashed the cash.

 

Just to be clear, I'm not interested in swapping out forks with different model units from the CBR range or the SP1/ SP2 or even R1. For one, these units are becoming very rare to purchase in the UK at sensible prices and two, this isn't my main bike, only summer use commuter and occasional tour to European GP's and isn't worth the investment. All I want is to improve the bike to a point where I know if a throw it into a corner, like I can on my other bikes, the thing will stay underneath me and at least attempt to hold the line I want to ride.

 

I've attached a quick picture of my bike as in some earlier posts I've done, forum members have been interested in seeing it.

 

Thanks. Pete

 

 

 

IMG_2047.JPG

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The OEM yokes have 40mm offset; SP1/CBR has 30mm offset (VFR1200 has 35mm offset).  Just a thought.

 

Ciao,

 

JZH

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Well using 7.5wt oil is the major problem. You have a valve system that is around 20years old. Depending on mileage & fork oil changes will determine the amount of wear. 
 

They were poorly damped when new, so using 10 or 15wt oil would be a good start. Then it’s a choice of either upgrade the valves or the cartridges, or replacing the forks.

 

There are plenty of threads here on how to or what worked for others.

 

Have fun 👍

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Oh in answer to the question, Yes. 
VFR Stanchions, VTR sliders, Traxxion Dynamic Cartridges & CBR929 callipers 👍😎

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Thanks Mohawk,

 

mileage is just over 30k so just about run in really😉
 

my guess is the forks have never been serviced prior to me working on the bike so it’s a fair suggestion that wear and tear maybe part of the problem, although in my defence, no obvious wear was visible on the bushes but that doesn’t mean the cartridge internals aren’t knackered.

 

I’ll start with trying heavier oil but I’m not convinced of the improvement.

 

ill post once done though.

 

Pete

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9 hours ago, petarm said:

So I'm now beginning to consider new fork internals and as I have Maxton shock and fork internals on my 2005 SV1000s which is my track bike, I thought I'd speak to them first.

 ^^^ This is what you need to do.

You’ve had decent suspension and, now, have that experience to compare to something stock. You’re never going to be happy with stock components, from now on. Just spend the money on Maxton internals.
 

All my bikes have their front and rear suspensions reworked. It’s just a given, for me. 

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  • 2 months later...
On 6/24/2020 at 11:49 AM, petarm said:

 

Just to be clear, I'm not interested in swapping out forks with different model units from the CBR range or the SP1/ SP2 or even R1. For one, these units are becoming very rare to purchase in the UK at sensible prices and two, this isn't my main bike, only summer use commuter and occasional tour to European GP's and isn't worth the investment. All I want is to improve the bike to a point where I know if a throw it into a corner, like I can on my other bikes, the thing will stay underneath me and at least attempt to hold the line I want to ride.

 

 

If you're looking at changing the internals I would also recommend getting adjustable forks. Then again I bought mine in Poland but... it has been such a huge plus when updating the suspension that any less will seem like a half measure. Finally got mine dialed in and it has helped so much with confidence in the corners. Perhaps that's necessary when you start putting in cbr forks in the first place. 

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  • 5 weeks later...
On 6/24/2020 at 2:44 PM, petarm said:

Thanks Mohawk,

 

mileage is just over 30k so just about run in really😉
 

my guess is the forks have never been serviced prior to me working on the bike so it’s a fair suggestion that wear and tear maybe part of the problem, although in my defence, no obvious wear was visible on the bushes but that doesn’t mean the cartridge internals aren’t knackered.

 

I’ll start with trying heavier oil but I’m not convinced of the improvement.

 

ill post once done though.

 

Pete

So Pete...how far did you get?

 

This summer I sold my KTM Adventure 990 for a 4th gen with 20k miles & no service history. The viffer suspension is shite.

 

After much t'internet research I'm just about to give half of what I paid for the bike to Maxton for an NR4 shock & SD25 cartridges.

 

For me, this option is the best value for money vs what I need the bike to do. Will service the chassis components & fit new tyres while changing the suspension. And then wait out the winter before being able to enjoy a sorted bike 😀

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3 hours ago, klugu said:

The viffer suspension is shite.

 

After much t'internet research I'm just about to give half of what I paid for the bike to Maxton for an NR4 shock & SD25 cartridges.

You will get value from the suspension upgrades every time you ride. It will be safer, more relaxing and more comfortable. I have never regretted suspension $$ (and I've done them on all my bikes). Ducnut was 100% correct: "You’ve had decent suspension and, now, have that experience to compare to something stock. You’re never going to be happy with stock components, from now on. "

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15 hours ago, Terry said:

You will get value from the suspension upgrades every time you ride. It will be safer, more relaxing and more comfortable. I have never regretted suspension $$ (and I've done them on all my bikes). Ducnut was 100% correct: "You’ve had decent suspension and, now, have that experience to compare to something stock. You’re never going to be happy with stock components, from now on. "

^^^ This.  I jumped on the chance to re-purchase the VFR I sold nine years ago because it was tuned for me, by me.  The idea of buying a stock bike and even riding it for a bit before hitting the suspension mods hard has never, ever appealed to me since riding what I have.  

 

That being said, for the original post...when I've looked at front end conversion it falls under the column of "If you're riding hard enough for that to make a difference then you must be on a track."  At the same time I can feel the difference between the 5th gen and moderately wider/stiffer 6th gen forks in street cornering so...YMMV.  I do dump that kind of effort into my mountain bikes and adjustability for conditions and age of damping oil is a requirement, but I've just never seen it as worth the effort for the VFR on the street.  I'm sure I would feel the difference, but I have tried to constrain myself to "80% is good enough" here 😄

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I've had stock 5G, modified 5G (replaced springs and Gold Valves) and then modified 600F4i forks on my 5G. Bang for buck, the modified 5G fork is pretty good and maybe 95% of what the 600F4i fork offered. The latter seemed to have better quality/design bushings that made for lower friction and a better ride, and the 43mm vs 41mm stanchions were definitely less prone to flex. I never got a lot of value from the external adjusters as they fall into the set and forget category. Using VTR1000F caps/damper rods will get you adjustable rebound if you wanted that for not much $$.

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  • 5 months later...
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I have been contemplating a front end swap on my 5th gen. I have previously swapped late model R6 inverted forks onto my RZ350 and love it but don't fancy getting in that deep on the VFR this year as I have enough projects on my slate. As it overlaps with other aspects I would like to change I am considering just swapping out the lowers for VTR1000 parts and CBR calipers. I would replace all seals and bushings at the same time. This would save me removing the triples, as I just did the steering bearings last year, and also save dicking about with steering stops, bars, wiring etc. I can get a VTR1000 fender in the same colour code as my VFR and use VTR brake lines, and would probably look at changing the front master cylinder if necessary.

The rear caliper would be a Brembo P32 on an adapter bracket I already have from VFRD member eyrwbvfr.

 

Unknowns;

-Need a VTR front axle?

-Need to make wheel spacers?

-Need caliper spacers?

-Can you use the VTR cartridges?

-Okay with VFR springs, realizing VTR's are too soft?

 

Any comments or clarifications on the above points are appreciated.

Thanks!

 

 

 

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The axle and spacers do not need to change.

VTR cartridges/fork caps are much the same as VFR certainly from a dimension, threadsize etc perspective, and the damping parts are just the same (with an added adjustable rebound bleed) so just as poor, and you ought to at least get a GoldValve for compression. VFR springs would be OK but you may need to adjust the spacer length, some PVC pipe is perfect for this. Or buy some decent springs from Somic, Racetech etc that are specific to your weight.

Use of CBR calipers requires removal of a little of the lower mounting bracket on the fork, a few minutes with a hand file. They also need to be spaced off the fork by something like 2-3mm, I used a couple of SS washers superglued in place. You should definitely get a master to match the calipers, to keep the correct hydraulic ratio.

You can't use a VTR guard as the fork leg spacing is different on the VFR (wider) so use your VFR guard and make up some small brackets to mate to the VTR legs.

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Having done the deed...parts is parts.....

.....Stock 5th gen parts

> Wheel, axle, spacers, rotors, axle bolt, fender....need fender bracket fab. ( I used to make these.) 

5th clip-ons, triples

.......VTR Parts

> Lower fork legs, axle clamp bolts... - I upgraded the springs and valves. 

> Brakes - RC51, F4i, CBR600, 954, match the master cylinder - makes it easy.(mine are RC51)

Custom brake lines (Mine are Spiegler, they are local to me.)

 Notes....

Minor grinding needed on lower area of calipers and lower fork leg mount boss....Top of mount is fine. 

P1010505-1-M.jpg

(Bolt from up top, swing down caliper for areas to work on.)

1mm spacers needed on back side of calipers to get the pistons more centered..

( I'm running a common off the shelf hardware washers, there was a time I was going to grind up some custom washers, but after a while, it didn't seem needed.)

 

5th gen triples are wider stance vs VTR triple

 

Don't forget to change the rear master cylinder to 14mm (F4i, RC51, CBR600, VTR)

This job is a delink project too so all that gear comes out.

 

Some photos are in my gallery

 

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I wasn't aware of the wider fork spacing, so thanks for that one. I've got a brand new CBR1000 (not sure year) rear MC that I bought for another project and never used but I think it's ⅝" (16mm) so it might be a bit touchy.

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15 hours ago, Dangeruss said:

I wasn't aware of the wider fork spacing, so thanks for that one. I've got a brand new CBR1000 (not sure year) rear MC that I bought for another project and never used but I think it's ⅝" (16mm) so it might be a bit touchy.

A bigger diameter MC should give you a more wooden brake as there is less hydraulic advantage over the calliper pistons; not a bad thing for a rear brake in my view. 

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1 hour ago, vfrcapn said:

Can't you just bolt up an entire VTR front end? Uses same bearings I think?

 

Oh look....

 

 

:) Yeah, I looked at that and was wondering if you still have it. I will PM you shortly.

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2 hours ago, vfrcapn said:

Can't you just bolt up an entire VTR front end? Uses same bearings I think?

 

Oh look....

 

 

The VTR and 5G definitely use the same bearings, but the steering stem length could be different, as could the yoke offset. I put 6G yokes and CBR600F4 forks onto my 5G as I was confident the frame/geometry was largely unchanged between the 5 and 6G, and the only issue I had was getting the steering lock pin to align with the socket in the frame, which required the 5G lock mechanism to be shimmed down off the 6G triple. 

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I doubt the steering stem is any different length; can't say for sure, but playing around with that dimension is not generally a Honda thing.  It's generally 224mm, but very large bikes might have longer ones.  (I might have both stems in my shed, but I haven't looked in that particular box for some time, so I'm not sure what I've still got.)

 

Yoke offset is different: 40mm on the 800 and 35mm on the VTR.  I'm not sure where I got the data, but I'm showing 25.5mm rake and 95mm trail for the 800 and 24.83mm rake and 97mm trail for the VTR.

 

Ciao,

 

JZH

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  • 5 months later...
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On 1/24/2012 at 1:40 AM, Veefer800Canuck said:

RC51 forks on a 1999 VFR800. No, I would not switch back.

The longer trail due to the RC51 triples different offset makes the bike steer slower (all else being equal) but on my bike, the front end is slightly lower than stock, and the rear end, I raised up, plus the handlebars are wider for more leverage, so it pretty much cancels that effect right out.

The brakes are absolutely stupid, and the ride quality and adjustability are far better than the standard VFR boingers. I added an Ohlins rear shock, courtesy of a VFRd member, and the transformation is complete.

gallery_554_5200_7067862.jpg

 

Old thread, but since you are a Forum moderator I am hoping to get a reply. What handlebars did you have on this very nice looking VFR? They look wider and higher than Helibars.

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  • 8 months later...
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On 9/30/2020 at 4:54 PM, Terry said:

I've had stock 5G, modified 5G (replaced springs and Gold Valves) and then modified 600F4i forks on my 5G. Bang for buck, the modified 5G fork is pretty good and maybe 95% of what the 600F4i fork offered. The latter seemed to have better quality/design bushings that made for lower friction and a better ride, and the 43mm vs 41mm stanchions were definitely less prone to flex. I never got a lot of value from the external adjusters as they fall into the set and forget category. Using VTR1000F caps/damper rods will get you adjustable rebound if you wanted that for not much $$.

 

Hi Terry,

 

What modifications did you do to the F4i forks. Did you swap out the entire front with the triple trees?

 

Ross

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On 5/31/2022 at 12:35 AM, RossR said:

 

Hi Terry,

 

What modifications did you do to the F4i forks. Did you swap out the entire front with the triple trees?

 

Ross

Hi Ross

 

I fitted 6th gen triples and bars to my 5G, installed the F4i forks with .95kg/mm springs and re-used the Gold Valves that were in the original forks. The damper cartridges are actually the same dimensions, just with the external screw adjusters. I also bought a 600F4i front fender, although you can get a 5G fender to fit with some creative bracket making. The 5G axle, wheel and discs are perfect as is. I used some 954 callipers and a 600RR master cylinder. The only bit that needed sorting was the ignition lock, the pin missed the socket on the steering head until I shimmed the lock down with a couple of washers. 

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4 hours ago, Terry said:

The damper cartridges are actually the same dimensions, just with the external screw adjusters.

 

Thanks Terry,

 

Same dimensions but the F4i forks are 43mm so putting the F4i cartridges into the 5th Gen 41mm forks would not work. Correct?

I am at kindergarten level with regard to this topic.

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On 6/6/2022 at 12:37 AM, RossR said:

 

Thanks Terry,

 

Same dimensions but the F4i forks are 43mm so putting the F4i cartridges into the 5th Gen 41mm forks would not work. Correct?

I am at kindergarten level with regard to this topic.

Not correct. The fork tubes are different diameters as you say, but the cartridges are all the same 20mm OD in all the Showa forks that I've seen. There are model-specific differences e.g. in the valve base at the bottom where the CBR has a larger diameter bolt securing it to the fork, but that valve base is still intended for the 20mm cartridge tube. If you work through the Racetech site you will probably see the same part numbers listed for Gold Valves for the different bikes as well. 

 

If you want to make your 5G forks externally adjustable you should get the fork caps and cartridges off the VTR1000F Superhawk/Firestorm. That cap will screw straight into the VFR fork, and you will get adjustable rebound. You are right that a F4i cap is 43mm and won't fit the 41mm VFR fork. 

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