Member Contributer JZH Posted July 13, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted July 13, 2011 So, my A&A supercharged FiY is almost completely back together. Only, it won't start... I'm not sure the attached .MOV file will work, but what's happening is that when the starter button is pushed, the starter spins the engine and it makes a regular little "pop", seemingly every 1/2 second. If I roll on the throttle whilst doing this, the pops increase in pace, but the engine never really makes an effort to start. I have swapped out the PGM-FI unit with a known-good one, replaced the ignition pulse sensor (under the RHS crankcase cover) with a probable-good one and removed the Power Commander V from the equation. I have also tested the wires from the ignition pulse sensor back to the PGM-FI and they are good. For good measure, I tested the cam position sensor wires as well. The rear plugs (at least) are getting sparks (I didn't check the front cyls). There is bit of a gasoline smell from the lovely new underseat exhausts, but not a whole lot. The fuel pump can be heard powering up (and is new), and the FI light on the dash turns off within a few seconds of turning on the key. I think this is ignition-related, but I'm running out of things to test! (I have moved the PGM-FI unit and its wires around quite a bit, trying to find the best place to mount it and route the wires, but have only tested a few of the wires for continuity.) FYI, I initially focused on the ignition pulse sensor because the PGM-FI unit gave me a "19" code when I put it into test mode. However, after I tried to "clear" the stored error code (to see if it would reproduce), I no longer get any error codes--just a solid FI warning light when I put it into test mode. That's when I tried a different PGM-FI unit, but I didn't put that one into test mode for fear of breaking it! Any ideas would be most appreciated. [The .MOV file won't embed, and directly accessing it seems to cause it to hang. Try downloading this to your desktop and then playing it: popcornthemovie] Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kaldek Posted July 13, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted July 13, 2011 Sounds like your ignition timing is off. Did you plug the coils in correctly? You could be getting the spark sent to cylinders on exhaust stroke rather than compression stroke. When you say "test mode" you mean you bridged the Service connector with a piece of wire? The solid red light means no codes are stored. I'm pretty sure both the Ignition Pulse generator and Cam Pulse generator are in the same spot - you didn't connect them into the wrong plugs did you? I think they're colour coded. Getting them wrong would make the engine think the cam is spinning twice as fast as the crank. Heh. This is what Honda says to do: Disconnect the Ignition Pulse Generator Ensure the cam pulse generator is connected securely Crank the engine for 10 seconds If the FI light does NOT blink, your CAM pulse generator isn't working If the FI light DOES blink (code 19), make sure the ignition pulse generator is disconnected and do a continuity test between the white/yellow wire and ground If there is continuity, your pulse generator is stuffed. The reason you disconnect the Ignition pulse generator first, is that a signal from the Cam pulse at the same time as NO signal from the Ignition pulse generator is how it determines that "yeah, the engine is spinning (I can see the cam going round) but I can't see the crank going round". In essence there should be 2 crank pulses for every 1 cam pulse. Anyway, after this Honda tell you to perform a peak voltage check. You would need to wire a multimeter with peak voltage detection into the two-pin ignition pulse connector going to the crankcase, and look for a 0.7 volt peak (each crank rotation generates a 0.7 volt spike/pulse). If you don't have a peak voltage detector, a very sensitive analogue multimeter in the 2000 millivolt range could possibly be used as you might see the needle twitching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kaldek Posted July 13, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted July 13, 2011 The other thing I'm considering is your ignition timing wheel. This little doo-dad is right behind the right crank-case cover where you installed the driving pulley for the supercharger. When you removed the bolt and reinstalled it, did you have any problems in that area? If the timing wheel was knocked out of alignment it would cause the engine to fire the spark either early or late. Depending on HOW late/early, it could cause the ECU to flash code 19.... Check out the image of the pulse generator here form the parts list: Pulse Generator 2000 VFR It's item #8 - "Rotor, Pulse". Note how it's held in place by the very bolt you have removed and replaced to install the supercharger pulley. In my manual (2002 model), it says "align the wide groove in the rotor with the wide groove in the crankshaft". You'd think that means it only fits on one way. Hmmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kaldek Posted July 13, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted July 13, 2011 Other ideas - air supply? Is it possible to get the plumbing wrong, so that the bike would be starved of air? I don't know where the supercharger pulls its air from - a good starting test would be to open up the plenum to atmosphere just to see if it's getting air. If the bike starts, you know it wasn't not getting air and you can forget all the ignition stuff and focus on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer JZH Posted July 13, 2011 Author Member Contributer Share Posted July 13, 2011 Sounds like your ignition timing is off. Did you plug the coils in correctly? You could be getting the spark sent to cylinders on exhaust stroke rather than compression stroke. Thanks for the input! I didn't mess with the front cylinders' coils at all, but now that you mention it, I suppose I could have mixed up the rear two (they needed to be relocated when I removed the airbox and installed the supercharger kit). I'll check that tomorrow. When you say "test mode" you mean you bridged the Service connector with a piece of wire? The solid red light means no codes are stored. Yes. I guess that meaning is a good thing, but it still don't work! I'm pretty sure both the Ignition Pulse generator and Cam Pulse generator are in the same spot - you didn't connect them into the wrong plugs did you? I think they're colour coded. Getting them wrong would make the engine think the cam is spinning twice as fast as the crank. Heh. Yes, they are both in the same spot, but one is red and the other white (ISTR), so difficult to mix up. This is what Honda says to do: Disconnect the Ignition Pulse Generator Ensure the cam pulse generator is connected securely Crank the engine for 10 seconds If the FI light does NOT blink, your CAM pulse generator isn't working If the FI light DOES blink (code 19), make sure the ignition pulse generator is disconnected and do a continuity test between the white/yellow wire and ground If there is continuity, your pulse generator is stuffed. The reason you disconnect the Ignition pulse generator first, is that a signal from the Cam pulse at the same time as NO signal from the Ignition pulse generator is how it determines that "yeah, the engine is spinning (I can see the cam going round) but I can't see the crank going round". In essence there should be 2 crank pulses for every 1 cam pulse. Another thing to try tomorrow! Anyway, after this Honda tell you to perform a peak voltage check. You would need to wire a multimeter with peak voltage detection into the two-pin ignition pulse connector going to the crankcase, and look for a 0.7 volt peak (each crank rotation generates a 0.7 volt spike/pulse). If you don't have a peak voltage detector, a very sensitive analogue multimeter in the 2000 millivolt range could possibly be used as you might see the needle twitching. I hope it doesn't come to that, because I have no practical way of doing this test! The other thing I'm considering is your ignition timing wheel. This little doo-dad is right behind the right crank-case cover where you installed the driving pulley for the supercharger. When you removed the bolt and reinstalled it, did you have any problems in that area? If the timing wheel was knocked out of alignment it would cause the engine to fire the spark either early or late. Depending on HOW late/early, it could cause the ECU to flash code 19.... Check out the image of the pulse generator here form the parts list: Pulse Generator 2000 VFR It's item #8 - "Rotor, Pulse". Note how it's held in place by the very bolt you have removed and replaced to install the supercharger pulley. In my manual (2002 model), it says "align the wide groove in the rotor with the wide groove in the crankshaft". You'd think that means it only fits on one way. Hmmm. You are quite right about that, but I checked it (it only fits one way) when I swapped ignition pulse generators from another bike. I can't see air supply being an issue, either, as there is just a huge K&N filter on the intake side of the Rotrex unit--nothing to block the air intake that I can see. Right now I'm thinking that those rear coils could be the culprits... Tbh, I wasn't really paying attention to their position--it was surprisingly difficult to get them mounted to the back of the intake plate, and I don't recall even thinking about which was which. Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kaldek Posted July 13, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted July 13, 2011 I didn't mess with the front cylinders' coils at all, but now that you mention it, I suppose I could have mixed up the rear two (they needed to be relocated when I removed the airbox and installed the supercharger kit). Isn't the '98-'01 a wasted-spark system where one coil fires two cylinders, or is it one coil per cylinder just like the 6th-gen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kaldek Posted July 13, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted July 13, 2011 Mate, just listened to your video again with some headphones on and it really does sound like one bank is firing and the other isn't. Given the firing order of the VFR it's like Fire-Miss-Fire-Miss if the rear bank isn't wired up right. Should we take bets on it being those coils mixed up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer JZH Posted July 13, 2011 Author Member Contributer Share Posted July 13, 2011 Mate, just listened to your video again with some headphones on and it really does sound like one bank is firing and the other isn't. Given the firing order of the VFR it's like Fire-Miss-Fire-Miss if the rear bank isn't wired up right. Should we take bets on it being those coils mixed up? You would have lost! (Why is there no "crying" emoticon? I really need to cry!) I was so hoping that was it, but I've now checked and double-checked and all four coils are wired correctly (at least, consistently--I don't see any + or - markings on them). Moreover, I've traced each of the four wires and all have good connections to the PGM-FI unit. However, I still think the problem is timing-related, so I'll keep testing until there's nothing left to test... Ciao, [Just finished more testing. I note that only the #3 cylinder is firing "properly", or at least popping properly... If I disconnect the #3 coil, nothing pops at all. Following the procedures outlined in the Haynes manual, I checked the throttle sensor, the fuel cut-off relay, the engine stop relay, the engine stop sensor, the atmospheric pressure sensor, the MAP sensor, the cam pulse generator and the ignition pulse generator (but not the peak voltage of the latter two,as I don't have the tools). I did not fully test the intake air sensor, as it is underneath the throttle bodies, nor did I test the injectors (though they were freshly professionally cleaned) or the speed sensor. This bike is a California model, and during the process of installing the supercharger I have removed the variable intake system control valve, the purge control solenoid valve and the pulse secondary air control valve (as well as all of the PAIR and California-specific equipment and vacuum lines--now plugged). None of the associated connectors have been terminated; they have simply been wire-tied out of the way. Finally, the O2 sensors have been removed and Power Commander terminators (resistors) installed. I am running out of ideas!] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kaldek Posted July 14, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted July 14, 2011 I am running out of ideas!] Geez, so am I. OK let's have a think about fuel for a minute. Did your kit come with a replacement fuel pressure regulator? We should do a fuel delivery check. This is a bit of a redneck test, but if you can pop the throttle bodies off, you lift them up and shove a large piece of paper towel under them so the throttle bodies are sitting on it. Then you crank the engine for a couple of seconds and stop, remove the paper towel and confirm there are four wet marks on it. That pretty much takes care of a basic fuel delivery test. If that's too much to ask, you can go super redneck and take a piece of paper towel and cut four thin slivers off it. Then you stick one down each intake tract (one test at a time!) with the throttle held open enough so that it doesn't cut the paper towel. Again, crank the bike for a few seconds and stop, remove the paper towel and it should be wet. Repeat for all cylinders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer mello dude Posted July 14, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted July 14, 2011 I am running out of ideas!] Geez, so am I. OK let's have a think about fuel for a minute. Did your kit come with a replacement fuel pressure regulator? We should do a fuel delivery check. This is a bit of a redneck test, but if you can pop the throttle bodies off, you lift them up and shove a large piece of paper towel under them so the throttle bodies are sitting on it. Then you crank the engine for a couple of seconds and stop, remove the paper towel and confirm there are four wet marks on it. That pretty much takes care of a basic fuel delivery test. If that's too much to ask, you can go super redneck and take a piece of paper towel and cut four thin slivers off it. Then you stick one down each intake tract (one test at a time!) with the throttle held open enough so that it doesn't cut the paper towel. Again, crank the bike for a few seconds and stop, remove the paper towel and it should be wet. Repeat for all cylinders. Kudos to Kaldek for all his debug ideas! --- I dont like to do debug by forum, I'm a hands on touchy/feelling smell it guy. But - - This may or may not be a good suggestion. I watched the video, and when you switched the fuel pump on, it seemed to spin faster than normal, like there was no fuel. Dunno where to go with this, but can you prime the fuel pump, then check pressure? (Gas in tank, yes? sry to ask) Good luck - I'm routing for you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Vee-Ef-Ar Posted July 14, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted July 14, 2011 Because you removed the cam pulse sensor and played with the crank... are you sure you reinstalled the new pulse sensor with the correct crank angle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kaldek Posted July 14, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted July 14, 2011 Because you removed the cam pulse sensor and played with the crank... are you sure you reinstalled the new pulse sensor with the correct crank angle? That was one of my thoughts. It's hard to get it wrong, considering the crank sensor itself is mounted in one position and the timing wheel only fits on one way. If he can't solve it soon, it might need to be a case of starting from the ground up with all relevant components, checking them all in detail to make sure they are set in accordance with the service manual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer JZH Posted July 16, 2011 Author Member Contributer Share Posted July 16, 2011 Because you removed the cam pulse sensor and played with the crank... are you sure you reinstalled the new pulse sensor with the correct crank angle? That was one of my thoughts. It's hard to get it wrong, considering the crank sensor itself is mounted in one position and the timing wheel only fits on one way. If he can't solve it soon, it might need to be a case of starting from the ground up with all relevant components, checking them all in detail to make sure they are set in accordance with the service manual. Well, I gave up. At least, for now. Mainly because I had to go back to London and didn't relish the idea of tearing everything apart two days before flying home. I did add another can of petrol, which added a bar to the tank indicator, but little else. The fuel pump is a brand new one, supplied by A&A (presumably higher capacity or pressure), so that could explain the different sound. Or, there could be a fuel problem. Maybe all of the injectors are clogged--except #3? Why would #3 "pop" and the others not? Actually, I swapped the ignition pulse generator, not the cam pulse generator, but in any case it is impossible to re-install the timing wheel-thing wrong, as it only fits onto the crank one way. The sensor bolts to the RHS crankcase cover, and there is no way to screw that up. (Actually, there is--you could mount it in a different position--no idea why there is a second set of mounting holes--but I installed it in the same position as the original one, and the same problem was there before I did that anyway.) Thanks for the troubleshooting help...but I'm not exactly looking forward to dealing with this in a couple of months. Ciao, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zRoYz Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 JZH nothing could be more frustrating than bolting on something you have such high expectations for & then bike won't start. Now without being super technical looking at every possible problem with the ignition system I will suggest simple fix, for example before you started to strip bike to fit kit did bike run. I'm sure the answer is yes so do a process of reverse engineering to look at what you did in fitting kit that may cause the problem because if bike ran beforehand then all the ignition system should be fine. Have you simply tried spraying some motor start spray down the throttle bodies because I have had your problem a few times after doing major work on motor removing tank etc & bike wouldn't start except for some popping like yours. It took at times a few charges of the battery & some motor start spray to fire up first time then all was good, like there was some type of vapor lock & engine needed to run to clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veefer800Canuck Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Did you have the bike running in it's stock configuration before you began the teardown for the SC install? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer JZH Posted July 19, 2011 Author Member Contributer Share Posted July 19, 2011 Yes, the bike was running, but it's been a while. It was in storage for two years. But the usual storage-related problems would seem to have been precluded by the parts I've replaced: I installed a professionally cleaned set of injectors into the original throttle bodies and, as part of the A&A kit, replaced the fuel filter, fuel pump and air filter (and, of course, the fuel). However, I did not thoroughly clean the rest of the throttle bodies--don't know what I was thinking! Maybe I thought I would do it later--one of the problems of working on this project only sporadically. So, I suppose the throttle bodies themselves could be gunked up. The engine start spray sounds like a good idea; I just don't hold out much hope for it. There is no way around it, either I wash my hands and put the bike up for a quick sale at $3,000, or I take off the supercharger and the throttle bodies and systematically check every aspect of the installation the next time I'm back in California. (I'm only joking about selling the bike, btw!) Ciao, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zRoYz Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 It would have been wise to have started bike before fitting kit, you have replaced so many parts it has now become a mine field of possible problems. If you didn't replace plugs that & some engine start spray down the throttle bodies would be my first port of call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veefer800Canuck Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 I'll take that Old Crock off your hands for 3k. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer toro1 Posted July 19, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted July 19, 2011 John, I looked and looked for similar problems online, and I found a decent number of people who have nearly identical problems to you, but they were never solved. I did come across this thread which might be of interest, though. Also, have you checked all the fuses? One guy I found traced his starting problem to a bad fuse pertaining to the HISS system. Did you pull any plug to see if it was wet? I'm starting to wonder if something isn't connected properly with either the pump assembly or the fuel rail / fuel lines. Obviously the pump is wired correctly (and sounds great, btw), but something is still amiss here. Who did your injector cleaning? They didn't insert some kind of protective cap into the injector entry, did they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer JZH Posted July 20, 2011 Author Member Contributer Share Posted July 20, 2011 John, I looked and looked for similar problems online, and I found a decent number of people who have nearly identical problems to you, but they were never solved. I did come across this thread which might be of interest, though. Also, have you checked all the fuses? One guy I found traced his starting problem to a bad fuse pertaining to the HISS system. Did you pull any plug to see if it was wet? I'm starting to wonder if something isn't connected properly with either the pump assembly or the fuel rail / fuel lines. Obviously the pump is wired correctly (and sounds great, btw), but something is still amiss here. Who did your injector cleaning? They didn't insert some kind of protective cap into the injector entry, did they? It really would not have been practical to stop and check if the bike still ran after fitting each new kit component. Once I started the install, I was pretty much committed to finishing it as outlined in the kit instructions. I did do the exhaust and a bunch of other little things at the same time (which were avoidable), but they should not have caused the problems I'm having now. Fuses were all pulled and checked. Although I was a bit cheeky and fitted a second-hand HISS transponder ring to the triple clamp, it isn't connected to anything so it couldn't be having any effect, could it?!? No way. Did not pull any plugs or do any other fuel tests as suggested above, so I don't know for sure that the throttle bodies are working properly. Indeed, it is starting to look like bad fueling is a strong contender as the cause of these symptoms. The injectors were cleaned by a company here in the UK. I bought a second-hand set of throttle bodies and had the injectors cleaned in advance of one of my previous trips to California. I don't recall any sort of caps being present. When I go back, I will pull the compressor, plenium and the throttle bodies and check the entire fuel system, as well as the vacuum lines and anything else I can see. Oh, joy! Thanks for everyone's help on this. I'm sure I will solve it eventually--I just had hoped that point would have arrived last week! Ciao, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rice Posted July 20, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted July 20, 2011 Nothing to contribute except some encouragement here. I know that when things like this happen to me, I say to myself that resolving them is just a matter of time. It really is - The solution has to mature in your head and it just takes some time. Of course, often as not, the culprit turns out to be the stupidest of things, which has been overlooked just for the reason that it is... The stupidest of things. Any way, all this is part of fun IMHO. Enjoy the challenge. You have a lot to look forward to and having this challenge will make you appreciate it even more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kaldek Posted July 21, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted July 21, 2011 Hey buddy, I just realised my latest Frankenstein experiment will help diagnose if your ignition pulse generator is faulty at all - an oscilloscope! Only $60 too!! It's the DSO Nano, go check it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer JZH Posted December 19, 2011 Author Member Contributer Share Posted December 19, 2011 Latest update: No update... I'm in California, but have had no time over the last two weeks to do anything on the bike apart from fashion a license plate mount! Bugger. I'm getting on a plane to HK tonight, where I will eventually be joined by five of my motorbikes and the contents of my London garage (none of which currently have anywhere to live, btw). I might get back here in June or July, but whether I will have any free time then is another question. Hey, this is LA, so I wonder if there's some kind of reality TV show I can call to help me get this bike running!?! Ciao, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AB-Oz Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 the trials and tribulations of the jetset eh? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Vee-Ef-Ar Posted December 19, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted December 19, 2011 That's a shame mate. Was looking forward to some good news. I would also go the starter spray. Least she'll tell ya bout the timing and or fuel. I'd also look into the wax unit... maybe it can be manually adjusted... Ranger might know. I'm sure you tried to start her with an open throttle? If you let these VFRs sit around, they can be a bit finicky to start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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