How to tell if it's the R/R or the stator?

[Guest glib]

Bought a used 2005 VFR with 30,000km on it about a month and a half ago. I put about 6000km on it then gave it an oil change last weekend. I started and stopped the engine a couple of times in quick succession while doing this, and once I got home the bike wouldn't start up again. Pulled the battery, it read 11.25V with a multimeter. Charged for 24 hours and it seemed to hold steady at 13.02V. Put it back in the bike and connected it, checked it and it was still at 13.02. Dropped to 12.22 with ignition on, then up to 12.42 once the bike was started. Unfortunately it only climbed to 12.80 @ 5000rpm.

What do I need to do next to figure out if it's the stator, R/R, or both?

[NVR2L8]

Bought a used 2005 VFR with 30,000km on it about a month and a half ago. I put about 6000km on it then gave it an oil change last weekend. I started and stopped the engine a couple of times in quick succession while doing this, and once I got home the bike wouldn't start up again. Pulled the battery, it read 11.25V with a multimeter. Charged for 24 hours and it seemed to hold steady at 13.02V. Put it back in the bike and connected it, checked it and it was still at 13.02. Dropped to 12.22 with ignition on, then up to 12.42 once the bike was started. Unfortunately it only climbed to 12.80 @ 5000rpm.

What do I need to do next to figure out if it's the stator, R/R, or both?

My '05 battery only lasted a two years, so your battery probably needs to be replaced. And I will go on record here and state that a lot of running/charging issues can be attributed to a suspect or faulty battery, as I know for a fact that most of my running/electrical problems resolved themselves once I installed a fresh battery. And even the service manual states to check the battery before troubleshooting the electrical system.

So...once you resolve the battery issue, use this link to check out the RR and Stator: http://www.electrosport.com/media/pdf/fault-finding-diagram.pdf

[kaldek]

Bought a used 2005 VFR with 30,000km on it about a month and a half ago. I put about 6000km on it then gave it an oil change last weekend. I started and stopped the engine a couple of times in quick succession while doing this, and once I got home the bike wouldn't start up again. Pulled the battery, it read 11.25V with a multimeter. Charged for 24 hours and it seemed to hold steady at 13.02V. Put it back in the bike and connected it, checked it and it was still at 13.02. Dropped to 12.22 with ignition on, then up to 12.42 once the bike was started. Unfortunately it only climbed to 12.80 @ 5000rpm.

What do I need to do next to figure out if it's the stator, R/R, or both?

OK, first you MUST perform all tests with a fully charged battery. If not, it will affect the results of any voltage tests.

The full details are provided here by Electrosport, but here's a guick guide.

• First test your stator. Get the fairings off on the right hands side and disconnect the stator plug (yellow wires).
  
• Start the bike, let it idle
  
• Using a multimeter in AC voltage mode (200 volt range or more), measure the voltage coming from the stator (not the plug that goes to the regulator!)
  
• Test voltage on pins 1-2, then 1-3, then 2-3. They all need to be very similar and should be about 20 volts AC each.
  
• Rev the bike to 5,000rpm and hold it there. Repeat the voltage test on the three pins. It should be 65 volts AC or higher.
  

If the above tests pass, it's not your stator. However if the voltages are wildly different, your stator is stuffed.

[Guest]

So I was getting 24-24-22 at idle, and about 65-65-72 once it was up to 4-5k. Sounds like my stator is probably ok to me?

I'm now taking a break before going back to getting all the f*cking bolts back together on the right side fairing. Little clips and flanges everywhere, just impossible to get them all in place while I'm lining it all back up, then inevitably one pops loose and I hear it bounce down the fairing... remove everything and go try again.... dammit. Also discovered that my fuel tank now wobbles back and forth since I lifted it last week. All the bolts are tight, I have no idea what's wrong and it's fairly concerning.

[kaldek]

So I was getting 24-24-22 at idle, and about 65-65-72 once it was up to 4-5k. Sounds like my stator is probably ok to me?

Yup, that stator is all good. Dead regulator most likely, but don't make that call until you have fully charged your battery and run another voltage test with the engine running, as a discharged battery will drag down the voltage readings.

Your best bet for "everyone has already done this" is an FH012AA MOSFET regulator. Your option for "I never want to ever blow a stator" is the Compu Fire series regulator; but this is as-yet not common and less adventurous folks don't like to go bleeding edge.

Personally I'd go the Compu-Fire.

[Guest]

So I was getting 24-24-22 at idle, and about 65-65-72 once it was up to 4-5k. Sounds like my stator is probably ok to me?

Yup, that stator is all good. Dead regulator most likely, but don't make that call until you have fully charged your battery and run another voltage test with the engine running, as a discharged battery will drag down the voltage readings.

Your best bet for "everyone has already done this" is an FH012AA MOSFET regulator. Your option for "I never want to ever blow a stator" is the Compu Fire series regulator; but this is as-yet not common and less adventurous folks don't like to go bleeding edge.

Personally I'd go the Compu-Fire.

So while I wait for a reply from wiremybike.com on whether they have the R/R in stock, what about my wiring harness itself? It looks like it's going to cost me a few bucks for shipping, so maybe I should just order the improved harness while I'm at it? Is there anything I can do to figure out if there's anything wrong with my harness? From the reading I've done it sounds like if the harness was going then I would be *overcharging* the battery, eventually melting the fuse that sits beside the battery?

[kaldek]

From the reading I've done it sounds like if the harness was going then I would be *overcharging* the battery, eventually melting the fuse that sits beside the battery?

It's possible for regulators to fail in an overcharge state, but yeah bad wiring can cause a regulator to overcharge as it detects a lower voltage than there really is.

However, the overcharging is not the cause of the fuse melting. Voltage is not the same as current, and it's current that nukes that fuse holder.

[JZH]

From the reading I've done it sounds like if the harness was going then I would be *overcharging* the battery, eventually melting the fuse that sits beside the battery?

Melting the fuse would be a good thing! Unfortunately, what actually happens when the reg/rec sends >15.5v to the battery is that the battery melts... Personally, I'd rather replace a fuse!

Ciao,

[Guest]

From the reading I've done it sounds like if the harness was going then I would be *overcharging* the battery, eventually melting the fuse that sits beside the battery?

Melting the fuse would be a good thing! Unfortunately, what actually happens when the reg/rec sends >15.5v to the battery is that the battery melts... Personally, I'd rather replace a fuse!

Ciao,

Just finished replacing the R/R. Still getting 12.4 at idle and 12.8 at 5000rpm. I have no idea what to do next. Replace the stator even though it checked out as being good? I haven't gone for a ride other than my commute to work in 4 weeks now. I'm losing my entire riding season to idiotic honda electrics.

[kaldek]

Just finished replacing the R/R. Still getting 12.4 at idle and 12.8 at 5000rpm. I have no idea what to do next. Replace the stator even though it checked out as being good? I haven't gone for a ride other than my commute to work in 4 weeks now. I'm losing my entire riding season to idiotic honda electrics.

Please repeat this test but measure the regulator voltage across the output pins (red and green wires - don't care which red or which green) from the regulator. Don't disconnect it please - leave it connected to the bike, just shove your probes in the back of the plug (it's called backprobing).

Let me know if the voltage readings are different from before. Charging voltage measured at the battery will be low if the battery is not fully charged.

Wait, you DID try a known good battery before replacing anything.....didn't you?

[Guest]

Just finished replacing the R/R. Still getting 12.4 at idle and 12.8 at 5000rpm. I have no idea what to do next. Replace the stator even though it checked out as being good? I haven't gone for a ride other than my commute to work in 4 weeks now. I'm losing my entire riding season to idiotic honda electrics.

Please repeat this test but measure the regulator voltage across the output pins (red and green wires - don't care which red or which green) from the regulator. Don't disconnect it please - leave it connected to the bike, just shove your probes in the back of the plug (it's called backprobing).

Let me know if the voltage readings are different from before. Charging voltage measured at the battery will be low if the battery is not fully charged.

Wait, you DID try a known good battery before replacing anything.....didn't you?

Yeah I started to doubt my battery so I bought a new sealed YZ14S and made sure it was fully charged before testing my system yesterday. The bike was started 3 times over the course of the day while I commuted before I got home to install the R/R. It was reading 12.51 before I started.

I've got it on a charger now and I left my right side faring off, so tomorrow morning I'll get up, put it in, and re-test everything that the service manual recommended. Service manual said to pull both connectors, test the stator for 0.1-1 ohm and make sure there's no continuity to ground on all three. Then on the 6P connector to test red/white to ground and it should read battery voltage, yellow yellow should read 0.1-1.0 ohm and green to ground should have continuity.

I'll add your 'backprobing' test to the mix as well.

I'm still frustrated, but feeling better now after having a beer.

PS. Thanks for all the help so far and the really quick replies.

[Guest]

Okay fully charged battery reading 13.2V.

Idle voltage with engine running is still 12.4V, then up to 12.8V at 5000rpm.

Backprobed the regulated voltage coming out of the R/R and got 13.4 at idle and 13.8 at 5000 rpm.

Rechecked every test mentioned in the service manual and ran through their complete troubleshooting guide. (On page 17-5 of this)

1. Battery in good condition.

2. Current leakage less than 2.5mA (it was at 1.9)

4. All three yellow terminals show 0.4 ohm resistance and no continuity with ground.

5. No, measured charging voltage is below measured battery voltage.

6. Yes. Again the yellows are in correct spec (0.4 ohm) as checked above. Red/white and ground (green) shows battery voltage (which was 13.02V at this point). There is continuity between green and ground.

At this point the guide tells me that I have a faulty R/R unit. This is my new one that I JUST replaced. I don't understand. What do I do?

[kaldek]

Backprobed the regulated voltage coming out of the R/R and got 13.4 at idle and 13.8 at 5000 rpm.

Hmm. There's two things I would do at this point. First, I would try and find someone nearby with a known good regulator, and just hook that up temporarily to see if it makes a difference to the voltage readings. If it does, the new regulator is a dud. Regulators have two parts in them - a rectifier and a regulator. The rectifer is a set of six diodes that convert the AC into DC, and the regulator is what brings the volts down from whatever they are to around 14 volts.

Do not set yourself a mental goal of 14.8 volts - be happy with about 13.6 volts at the battery when idling. In my case, I have a weird regulator which never gives me more than 14.2 volts at the battery - ever - but my bike never needs charging.

A voltage drop test using a multimeter is a good way of finding out if you have bad connections anywhere. This is the best fault finding diagram ever produced:

http://www.electrosport.com/media/pdf/fault-finding-diagram.pdf

On the first page of this diagram, right under where it says "4 or less" and you see some arrows with "more than 0.2 volts" in them, this is the voltage drop test which looks for bad connections.

[spud786]

If your sure youve gone though all the little connections on the red charge wire , then I say you have a weakening stator. 13.6 is just over mimimum spec of 13.4v, its barely adaquate. If it works okay that way then Great.

I had a stator that dropped , .4 volts compared to normal and it lasted several weeks before it eventually failed. You can also miss a short if not using the largest ohm scale on the ground check. But if you have voltage showing out of the stator then there's no Pure short, that doesnt mean that stator is not weakening or corrupt , on its wattage output.

Typically, my bike voltage was 14 .7 to 14.9 volt, it dropped to 14.2 volt and sat there for weeks, I ddint bother with it, cause it was still in spec. A few weeks later I was dead on the side of the road. I see that voltage behaiving weird again , unless its something else I find, I'll automatically order another stator.

The compufure is very intriquiging, not enough long term success for me to try. I run enough electrical stuff, I normally drain all the wattage anyway.

[kaldek]

If your sure youve gone though all the little connections on the red charge wire , then I say you have a weakening stator. 13.6 is just over mimimum spec of 13.4v, its barely adaquate. If it works okay that way then Great.

I had a stator that dropped , .4 volts compared to normal and it lasted several weeks before it eventually failed. You can also miss a short if not using the largest ohm scale on the ground check. But if you have voltage showing out of the stator then there's no Pure short, that doesnt mean that stator is not weakening or corrupt , on its wattage output.

Weakening stators normally only show up when they're hot, and even then you can see the problem with an AC voltage test - one of the phases will be dropping out and resulting in a much different DC output waveform with greater drops; it won't be able to sustain 13.6 volts.

If he's getting good AC voltages at idle and 5,000rpm cold, but poor DC voltage then I sincerely doubt it's the stator at this point. and more likely bad wiring or a faulty regulator circuit in the R/R housing.

[spud786]

Ive seen several here on this forum, swear their stator checks out, but in the end it was the stator.

I added a edit on my deal, that I had with my stator, it lasted for weeks with in spec voltage, although lower than normal voltage, then just died instantly .

If you fiqure once the epoxy starts degrading, weird stuff can take time to develope, my case is a perfect example.

Being thats a used bike , it may have an aftermarket stator, not saying it is or isnt or even the op has a stator issue,

Just sayin and sharin my deal

[Guest]

Backprobed the regulated voltage coming out of the R/R and got 13.4 at idle and 13.8 at 5000 rpm.

Hmm. There's two things I would do at this point. First, I would try and find someone nearby with a known good regulator, and just hook that up temporarily to see if it makes a difference to the voltage readings. If it does, the new regulator is a dud. Regulators have two parts in them - a rectifier and a regulator. The rectifer is a set of six diodes that convert the AC into DC, and the regulator is what brings the volts down from whatever they are to around 14 volts.

Do not set yourself a mental goal of 14.8 volts - be happy with about 13.6 volts at the battery when idling. In my case, I have a weird regulator which never gives me more than 14.2 volts at the battery - ever - but my bike never needs charging.

A voltage drop test using a multimeter is a good way of finding out if you have bad connections anywhere. This is the best fault finding diagram ever produced:

http://www.electrosport.com/media/pdf/fault-finding-diagram.pdf

On the first page of this diagram, right under where it says "4 or less" and you see some arrows with "more than 0.2 volts" in them, this is the voltage drop test which looks for bad connections.

Okay making some progress. Measured 0.19-0.20V drop from the + battery terminal to the red/white wire on the other side of the R/R connection to the harness. In spec, but just barely. The negative failed spectacularly at 0.4V. The electrosport suggests I 'check all connections' in both cases, but I'm just not familiar enough with the bike yet to do that. Pulled the two fuses by the battery and checked for continuity, both were good. Electrosport also suggested checking the grounding of the negative to the frame, which I can't find... the cable runs up under the fuel tank and I lose it. The connection between the R/R and the frame was what I did yesterday when I installed the new R/R. Maybe I didn't tighten down the bolts hard enough and it's got a poor connection? The old ones were torqued to all hell and I barely got them off.

Any suggestions for physically where I look on the bike for these mythical bad connections? Should I get out the Q-tips and start swabbing everything with rubbing alcohol?

[Guest]

Ive seen several here on this forum, swear their stator checks out, but in the end it was the stator.

I added a edit on my deal, that I had with my stator, it lasted for weeks with in spec voltage, although lower than normal voltage, then just died instantly .

If you fiqure once the epoxy starts degrading, weird stuff can take time to develope, my case is a perfect example.

I've checked and rechecked the voltages on the stator. All three pins show 24V at idle, and (when off) they all show 0.4 ohm resistance between them. Both of these seem to be in spec entirely.

[kaldek]

Okay making some progress. Measured 0.19-0.20V drop from the + battery terminal to the red/white wire on the other side of the R/R connection to the harness. In spec, but just barely. The negative failed spectacularly at 0.4V. The electrosport suggests I 'check all connections' in both cases, but I'm just not familiar enough with the bike yet to do that. Pulled the two fuses by the battery and checked for continuity, both were good. Electrosport also suggested checking the grounding of the negative to the frame, which I can't find... the cable runs up under the fuel tank and I lose it. The connection between the R/R and the frame was what I did yesterday when I installed the new R/R. Maybe I didn't tighten down the bolts hard enough and it's got a poor connection? The old ones were torqued to all hell and I barely got them off.

Whoa! Those are bad values alright. The maing ground point is just before the tank hinge, so you need to raise the tank and look under the rubber flap. However, there are also other ground points worth mentioning, such as the main ground block which is wrapped up inside the wiring harness on the left-hand side of the bike between the frame and the engine. You can cut the tape with a sharp knife and free the block. Using small screwdrivers you can prise the cap off and either clean all the terminals in there or cut the thing to shreds and solder all the wires together. It's also worth removing the left-side fairing and disconnecting the blue connector and giving all the connector pins in there a good clean with contact cleaner as that is also a nasty location for a bad earth.

The reason voltage drop tests are valuable is they show if the electrons treat your multimeter as a better path to earth than the wiring harness. If the connections are all good, the resistance of your multimeter will make the electrons not want to go through it (and hence little or no measurement). However if the wiring harness has bad connections, more electrons will want to flow through your multimeter and so you will see a reading of more than 0.2 volts. This means that the wiring harness has high resistance, which is not acceptable.

[spud786]

Weakening stators normally only show up when they're hot, and even then you can see the problem with an AC voltage test - one of the phases will be dropping out and resulting in a much different DC output waveform with greater drops; it won't be able to sustain 13.6 volts.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________

My stator/charge instantly began averaging 14.2volt , which was low compared to normal 14.7 to 14.9volt , there was no charging issues at all during this several week period that I noted this lower voltage, then the stator just died instantly a few weeks later. Never a performance issue the whole period

So if my failing stator can (sustain) 14.2 volt for weeks with no charging issue, thats well above 13.6 volt

Strange HuH?

[kaldek]

My stator/charge instantly began averaging 14.2volt , which was low compared to normal 14.7 to 14.9volt , there was no charging issues at all during this several week period that I noted this lower voltage, then the stator just died instantly a few weeks later. Never a performance issue the whole period

So if my failing stator can (sustain) 14.2 volt for weeks with no charging issue, thats well above 13.6 volt

14.2 is not low, and 14.9 is right up there! Some regulators tend to regulate a lot lower than that; certainly mine is about 13.9 - 14.1 and no higher. At 14.9 volts, you would cook a LiFePO4 battery, so it's definitely quite high. Personally I'd say too high and possibly caused by a dirty monitor wire connection; something the VFRness is designed to fix.

Your own voltage dropping from 14.7 to 14.2 can't necessarily be traced to your stator (even though it failed), although it was the most likely cause. Does your bike have the headlights wired on permanently or can you ride with them switched off? In my case, mine are hardwired on by law, so my voltage readings at idle are always lower than guys with bikes that have a headlight switch.

TBH I've not measured my voltage drops on my own bike for a while, so I should do that for a comparison.

[spud786]

Ive seen several here on this forum, swear their stator checks out, but in the end it was the stator.

I added a edit on my deal, that I had with my stator, it lasted for weeks with in spec voltage, although lower than normal voltage, then just died instantly .

If you fiqure once the epoxy starts degrading, weird stuff can take time to develope, my case is a perfect example.

I've checked and rechecked the voltages on the stator. All three pins show 24V at idle, and (when off) they all show 0.4 ohm resistance between them. Both of these seem to be in spec entirely.

I believe you, From what Ive seen the OEM charge parts generate better supply voltages and far less risk to having to do it over and over again, cause of poor part , Ive wondered if that bike has aftermarket charging parts in it. But Maybe fixing line resistances, gains you a volt to where it should be.

I mean when I take something apart , I dont want to have to do it again , aftermarket electrical parts is Hit or miss and can just add to the Horror,

people say is OEM bad, but it can be far far worse, when routing to save a buck. Your using elctrolux troubleshooting, i wouldnt touch their products for nothing

Anyway, Hope you get it fixed soon

[spud786]

Ive had the bike for near 90,000 miles, at 56,000 mile is when i had the ongoing lower voltage issue and stator failed a few weeks later, second stator is about 34 thousand mile. The only time this bike has not been flawless, was the day the stator died. But I prefer the higher voltages, I havent had any wiring problems and my bike is completely stock Head to Toe. Its been a Great reliable bike other than that one time.

My lights are on all the time, I run a RD all the time and electrical clothes in the winter. I hadnt ran electric clothes for months prior to this developement.

All my rides are long distance, so I have plenty of time to monitor everything. While I agree 14.2 is not low(as in out of spec. Thats why I wasnt too concerned, but it never budged to its normal range, which was really odd. Normally I never see that low of voltage. on a run at normal speeds. But it was just hanging at 14.2v for weeks and that wasnt normal for this bike.

Then stator went dead instantly

Anyway, next time I will take notice, and not wait to order a new stator. It was Total Black fried

The new stator shot right up to 14.9 volt

[Guest]

Okay making some progress. Measured 0.19-0.20V drop from the + battery terminal to the red/white wire on the other side of the R/R connection to the harness. In spec, but just barely. The negative failed spectacularly at 0.4V. The electrosport suggests I 'check all connections' in both cases, but I'm just not familiar enough with the bike yet to do that. Pulled the two fuses by the battery and checked for continuity, both were good. Electrosport also suggested checking the grounding of the negative to the frame, which I can't find... the cable runs up under the fuel tank and I lose it. The connection between the R/R and the frame was what I did yesterday when I installed the new R/R. Maybe I didn't tighten down the bolts hard enough and it's got a poor connection? The old ones were torqued to all hell and I barely got them off.

Whoa! Those are bad values alright. The maing ground point is just before the tank hinge, so you need to raise the tank and look under the rubber flap. However, there are also other ground points worth mentioning, such as the main ground block which is wrapped up inside the wiring harness on the left-hand side of the bike between the frame and the engine. You can cut the tape with a sharp knife and free the block. Using small screwdrivers you can prise the cap off and either clean all the terminals in there or cut the thing to shreds and solder all the wires together. It's also worth removing the left-side fairing and disconnecting the blue connector and giving all the connector pins in there a good clean with contact cleaner as that is also a nasty location for a bad earth.

The reason voltage drop tests are valuable is they show if the electrons treat your multimeter as a better path to earth than the wiring harness. If the connections are all good, the resistance of your multimeter will make the electrons not want to go through it (and hence little or no measurement). However if the wiring harness has bad connections, more electrons will want to flow through your multimeter and so you will see a reading of more than 0.2 volts. This means that the wiring harness has high resistance, which is not acceptable.

Ungh I'm now only seeing 12.9V between the red/whites and the greens on the R/R. Stator still has a solid 24V AC at idle though. I give up. I'm taking this into the shop, I'll drop it off, pay them whatever they want to charge me. This is beyond my ability I think, I feel like I'm just plugging one leak in the dam and another one appears.

[kaldek]

Ungh I'm now only seeing 12.9V between the red/whites and the greens on the R/R. Stator still has a solid 24V AC at idle though. I give up. I'm taking this into the shop, I'll drop it off, pay them whatever they want to charge me. This is beyond my ability I think, I feel like I'm just plugging one leak in the dam and another one appears.

It does sound like a dud regulator again.

FYI, I just did a voltage drop test on my bike and the results are:

Battery voltage at idle: 13.6 volts

Negative lead voltage drop: 0.14 volts (in spec)

Postive lead voltage drop: 0.4 volts (yikes!)

Regulator voltage at idle: 14.2 volts

That works out correct - 14.2 volts minus the voltage drops (0.14 + 0.4) = 13.66 volts. So my charging system is fine but I have some resistance in the wires between the regulator and the battery (goes via the 30 amp main fuse B). Now I need a fuse bypass wire to test across the Main Fuse B terminals so I can see if the resistance is at the fuse or somewhere further up.

What's funny though is I have a secondary heavy-gauge wire running from one of the red wires on the regulator direct to the battery (with its own fuse holder) as a roadside emergency-recovery for if I ever melt the 30 amp fuse holder again. I hooked it up, and sure enough there's only a 0.3 volt drop on that wire, but the battery voltage was all over the place man. It was jumping around anywhere from 13.7 up to 14.9 volts. Most interesting. I guess this means the regulator was unable to get a bead on what the battery voltage was and was regulating at an inconsistent voltage.

I think this means I have some other dodgy wiring somewhere. Not that it matters much because I've got an entire new wiring harness coming from the USA soon as part of my 2006 ECU upgrade. :)