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Expensive suspension, disappointing results!


Traveller

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Hey guys,

Just came back from my mechanic where I had my new Wilbers suspension put in.

The rear is Wilbers Type 641 Competition with external reservoir. On the tin is says:

"The compression settings for low-speed and high-speed, each alterable through 22 clicks for fine-tuning, can always be easily reached.

The rebound is adjustable through an open bleed system by 22 clicks for a perfectly tuned suspension. As with all our models, the preload is

continuously adjustable."

641.jpg

And since the rear would be seriously upgraded from stock I thought it would be a good idea to follow suit with the front with linear springs again from the same company.

http://cgi.ebay.nl/Wilbers-Gabelfedern-Honda-VFR-750-F-Bj-ab-94-/230395981490

Now, some background info. I weigh about 71 kg (156 lbs) without riding gear and I always liked the plush ride of the VFR. What I DIDN'T like was that the front was way too soft, rather vague and dove heavily under hard braking. I wanted to keep the plushness of the ride while firming it all up a little.

As for the rear I must confess I never had a particular issue with it. I don't know if it was rebuild at some point (I got the bike from Germany in 2008) but it just worked for me. It was again rather soft, and lazy to respond to dips on the road but it absorbed bumps nicely.

All in all the bike felt a bit lazy to respond, but it had a nice plushness and riding quality that I liked a lot.

Fast forward to today.

I got the bike back and ....I am terribly disappointed!

I know that most people on the forum would say at this point how amazing the new suspension is, etc, but I am terribly disappointed.

First of all, the bike feels VERY hard. The plushness is gone completely.

Riding over bumps and potholes it responds harshly and even small dips are noticeable.

The front dives very little compared to the previous setup and gives nice feedback but that's about the only good thing I can say about it.

The strange thing is that although the suspension feels very hard now and doesn't filter bumps on the road, riding over large dips it bounces twice, compared to just bouncing down and up once. Now it goes down, up and down again.

What was done to the bike. The rear suspension is fully adjustable so I guess I might find some setting to suit me.

However, the front is another story. The mechanic put in 15w oil, and I have absolutely no idea about the quantity (I know it plays a very important role).

He claims that this was the best solution as the VFR is very front heavy.

However, given my weight and the end results I tend to differ.

Also the front preload is unwound all the way out way past the 3rd line which is the standard setting on the bike. Look at that:

snv82711.jpg

If the ride is so harsh now with the preload all the way out, how can I set anything further? It will simply not work.

What can I do to bring back the nice plushy feeling of my VFR? I gave the mechanic a fortune to install the damn things and the end result is ten times worse than before! :(

Help guys!

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You probably need to get rid of the 15wt oil.

Being 150-something pounds, you won't need that much damping.

And if he's overfilled the forks, that would be even worse.

Try some 7 weight fluid and see how that works out, but be sure to flush the forks thoroughly to get rid of all the old 15wt.

And I have no idea what spring rate was installed, so you'd have to post up the specs of the springs versus the stock springs.

According to JZH's website, V-source.org, the stock fork oil weight is 5W (Honda SS-7)

p_95298.jpg

Maybe with the heavier spring you might need SLIGHTLY thicker oil for more damping and control of the spring, but 15w seems excessive.

7w would be plenty methinks.

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OK, according to the Race-tech site, the stock fork springs are .701 kg/mm

And for your weight, and street riding, they recommend 0.899 kg/mm

Did he do any valving work to the fork, or just oil and springs? Because to REALLY make it work good with the stiffer spring, you need a revalve.

And specifying that you want a "plush street ride" right at the beginning will make for a WAY different revalve job than other approaches.

http://www.racetech.com/HTML_FILES/DampingRodForks.HTML

As for the rear, Stock Shock Spring Rate 16.0 kg/mm

Ideal Rider Weight for the Stock Spring 160 lbs or 73 kg

So you are bang on out back with the stock spring rate. What did your new Wilbers shock come sprung with?

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OK, according to the Race-tech site, the stock fork springs are .701 kg/mm

And for your weight, and street riding, they recommend 0.899 kg/mm

Did he do any valving work to the fork, or just oil and springs? Because to REALLY make it work good with the stiffer spring, you need a revalve.

And specifying that you want a "plush street ride" right at the beginning will make for a WAY different revalve job than other approaches.

http://www.racetech.com/HTML_FILES/DampingRodForks.HTML

As for the rear, Stock Shock Spring Rate 16.0 kg/mm

Ideal Rider Weight for the Stock Spring 160 lbs or 73 kg

So you are bang on out back with the stock spring rate. What did your new Wilbers shock come sprung with?

So bad news all around! Just what I was afraid of!

Οk, so here's the thing.

The Wilbers shock I got on ebay, practically new. I have no idea what spring it came with and I cannot find the old owner to ask him.

The springs are the ones that Wilbers is recommending for the 96 VFR750. I cannot find any further specs on them I'm afraid.

I stand corrected.

I have found a very detailed piece of paper in the packaging with a lot of technical numbers that may mean something to someone!

Lange Lo (mm): 438

Aussen-Durchmesser (mm): 35.1

Draht Durchmesser (mm): 5.25

Zahl der Windungen: 44.72

Gabelol: SAE 10

Luftpolster (mm): 170

As for the revalving, these guys are not a specialist shop. They simply took out the old springs & oil and put in the new ones.

Is there a way to sort out the new suspension? I am just a few steps from throwing the damn thing in the garbage and putting in the old OEM one! That would be a first right?

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Gabelol = Oil. So we are wrong from the get go. The manual mentions SAE 10 and we have put in 15w.

As for the Luftpolster, it translates as bubble, which I have no idea what it could be.

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  • Member Contributer

Good morning,

I have the exact same Wilbers front and rear stuff AND a 4th Gen :fing02:

The oil weight must be 10 not 15 (Gabelol = fork oil)

170mm is the airpocket above the oil level and the top of the fork.

One the rear, my shock had the same issue as Douglasthecook here on VFRD. There was no negative sag (probalby the wrong term) if you lifted the rear it would immediately lift the swing arm, so no free play. I didnot find this out myself, a suspension guy at a bike shop did (when I asked him to have a look).

From what I remember, Doug was told by Wilbers that they had an employee making errors in the building process.

What you could do is drop a note to Wilbers and ask them for the settings/click for your weight (cicks for the red ring at the bottom and external reservoir). The n ride a strecth of roud up and down, play a bit with the settings take note of what you do so you can always go back.

Good luck

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Good morning,

I have the exact same Wilbers front and rear stuff AND a 4th Gen :fing02:

The oil weight must be 10 not 15 (Gabelol = fork oil)

170mm is the airpocket above the oil level and the top of the fork.

One the rear, my shock had the same issue as Douglasthecook here on VFRD. There was no negative sag (probalby the wrong term) if you lifted the rear it would immediately lift the swing arm, so no free play. I didnot find this out myself, a suspension guy at a bike shop did (when I asked him to have a look).

From what I remember, Doug was told by Wilbers that they had an employee making errors in the building process.

What you could do is drop a note to Wilbers and ask them for the settings/click for your weight (cicks for the red ring at the bottom and external reservoir). The n ride a strecth of roud up and down, play a bit with the settings take note of what you do so you can always go back.

Good luck

Hey mate, cheers for your reply!

Do you think I need to go for even thinner oil than 10? Considering:

1/ My rather low weight

2/ My preference for rather soft and compliant ride.

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OMG I feel your pain & to spend some good $$ on your bike suspension which is the best $$ you can spend on your bike & come away disappointed is sad.

Now without being harsh towards your mechanic, the reason there is specialized suspension techs is because it is black magic & you really need to know what your doing & how to setup a bike for an individual by asking the correct questions.

Putting 15W oil in forks unless it's a Harley or you weigh as much as a zumo wrestler is crazy especially without adjusting the valving to operate the correct flow rates with such a heavy oil, to do such a thing is really old school & was used as a quick fix to raise dampening without adjusting valving. The same outcome is achieved buy using light oil & adjusting valving flow rates to suit required dampening.

Your not a heavy guy & to be honest the VFR all gens have very good ball park valving & just changing spring rates to suit individuals weight is normally enough, but there is a problem that most feel the need to install heavier spring rates than needed. You forks need that 15W oil removed asap & if me I would replace with 7.5W race fork oil as race fork oil is the only type that comes in 7.5W & performs better than the standard fork oil. I would also go with the standard fork oil level or if you feel forks under dampened lower air gap buy 5mm at a time but not good to go further than 15mm because if you need stiffer after that then you do need to have valving adjusted. The reason to use the lightest oil as possible is response due to flow rate through valving a heavy weight oil will lower response & make your forks feel like they bounce over bumps & you are more likely to have a front end lose because keeping the contact patch on the deck is the most important thing so you need response. I'm allot heavier than you & used 7.5W in my 6th gen with standard valving with a decreased air gap of 10mm & it was better by a long way from the modified valving I tried.

Wilbers is a great shock & you can adjust the rebound & compression to gain the feel you require but you need a spring fitted to suit your weight & the spring will have numbers printed on it so find them & give to suspension tech to let you know the sping weight which is probably to stiff for your weight.

So don't dispare you need to change fork oil to lighter weight & shock spring to lighter tension & you will be happy but go see a suspension tech who will steer you in the correct direction not a mechanic.

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The fork springs are about 6,3N/m about the same or a bit less firm than stock. 15W fork oil is way to thick, replace with 5W (that's about stock) or 7,5W and set the oil level as recommended in the Honda manual (177mm air chamber). When that's done and you experience too much front end dive, raise the oil level a bit.

What numbers are printed on the shock spring?

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Concerning your front preload, if he replaced the springs then he also probably had to replace the spacers on top of the springs. On my 5th gen the spacers were just thin walled tubing. If your preload is set all the way out and it is still too much, try shortening the spacer length. Don't worry with this until after you have tried changing oil weight to see how that affects your bike. When cutting the spacers, a little bit goes a long way. I wouldn't remove more than about 6 or 7 mm at a time and retrying. Make sure you keep them the same length in each fork leg and take care to make the cuts square.

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  • Member Contributer

Stock front springs have spacers, aftermarket Wilbers donot

Read the instructions on which side of the coil faces up (I forgot...)

HPIM3514.jpg

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I've gotta believe the others who have replied are correct: 15 wt oil is probably at least a part of the problem. And it's relatively easy and cheap to change it an find out. Regarding springs, my personal opinion is that the tables everyone reads to find the "correct" spring rates is biased towards racers with sticky tires who run mostly on smooth tracks. Most of us run harder, more long lasting tires, and ride on a wider variety of road surfaces. I'd rather ride on a well-damped but softer spring (or at least that's my current thinking) than the charts suggest.

The other problem you face is that adjustability is both a blessing (if you've got a problem you need to solve) and a curse (if you don't know how to adjust it to make it what you want it to be). The easiest way to get it "dialled in" to at least the ballpark of what you want is to take your bike to a really knowledgable suspension specialist and let them do an initial setup. Then go out and ride it on some roads that are representative of the roads you like to ride, and take it back with your assessment of how it works. If he's any good he'll work with you until you get it the way you want it, and you'll learn a lot in the process.

If you're a do-it-yourself kinda guy and want to learn what all the adjustments do, start by reading Andrew Trevitt's articles in Sport Rider Magazine on suspension setup. I've got a copy of his original article from the February 2004 issue, or you can read his updated version of the same article at click here. Better yet, get your hands on a copy of his book Sportbike Suspension Tuning from David Bull Publishing click here or your favorite local or online bookseller. In each, he describes a methodical process for getting it right:

1. Set your sag. (You liked what the bike used to do, so set it the same as it was to start with)

2. Find an initial ballpark setting for compression and rebound front and rear by getting a feel for how it feels sitting still in your workshop. (or you can use the baseline setup a reputable suspension setup specialist suggests, or you can get one from someone on this forum with a similar setup).

3. Go for a ride on a representative piece of road. Play with fork compression adjustments until you can feel the differences it makes, and until you find a setting you like.

4. Same thing, only with fork rebound adjustments.

5. Same thing, but with compression adjustments to the shock.

6. Same thing, but this shock rebound adjustments.

By now, you've probably found a set of settings you like. Hopefully you like them better than the stock setup you started with. If not, you may want to change springs again. Or fork oil. Or fork oil level. But by now I'm going to bet that you'll have a pretty good idea what you'll want to try next. But most of all, always remember what you were trying to accomplish in the first place. It's easy to get carried away. Or lost.

The other thing Trevitt talks about is steering geometry, which is mostly a process of getting the rake of the bike front to rear "correct" to the way you want it to feel. But this is mostly about steering feel in corners, making the steering lighter/quicker or heavier/slower/more stable. But you haven't said anything about issues with that, either before or after the work you had done. My guess is that if you set sag front and rear to whatever it was before the work, you'll be happy with it now.

Good luck. Good suspenders will put a smile on your face. I hope you can find what you're looking for...

:tour:

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Lots of great advice here! Thanks guys!

I must admit I am very annoyed at the result at the moment, and I really don't feel like bothering at all. The mechanic charged me without exaggeration half of my monthly salary for the installation of the suspension + a routine service, which left me completely and utterly broke now.

So new springs etc is totally out of the question.

There is only one suspension specialist here in Athens, and when I had contacted him some time ago about fitting the suspension he refused flat out, on grounds that the VFR is very difficult to work ok. (I assume he meant the fairings and all)

As I have no other option however I will take the bike round to him again and hopefully he will be willing to change the damn oil at least and then do an initial setup of the suspension. (Which of course will mean even more money down the drain for me).

If I am not happy with the suspension even then then it is simply going to the trash and I will but back the old OEM suspension and forget about the whole damn thing. Too much grief, too much money lost for something that should have been an improvement.

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Its not that hard to learn and do it yourself with the aid of a factory service manual.

If you can undo one bolt, you can undo them all. It ain't rocket surgery.

I adapted an ohlins shock meant for a 6th gen onto my 5th gen no problems. 5 bolts and it's off, some shims and 5 bolts and it's on again! It rides great now!

Very therapeutic working on the bike. Then afterwards, sit back and have a couple shots of Ouzo! :-)

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Its not that hard to learn and do it yourself with the aid of a factory service manual.

If you can undo one bolt, you can undo them all. It ain't rocket surgery.

I adapted an ohlins shock meant for a 6th gen onto my 5th gen no problems. 5 bolts and it's off, some shims and 5 bolts and it's on again! It rides great now!

Very therapeutic working on the bike. Then afterwards, sit back and have a couple shots of Ouzo! :-)

What did you have to take off to remove/install your 6Gen shocks? I'll be trying it soon as well, when my new shock gets here?

All of us amateurs would like to know..........

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If you wanted plushness for everyday type of riding ie. not particularly aggressive sport bike style riding you should have stayed with stock rear and just got the spring rates matched and correct. In your case stock spring rates are fine .

If you tune your shock for aggressive canyon rider with occasional track day rides you are going to have a stiff suspension when you commute and tour. However if you take your bike on the track or try and keep pace with dedicated sport bikes your stiffer suspension combined with proper riding technique will be more than worth the investment.

I went with an Elka shock and full race tech front. Compression and rebound valves plus matching springs and bushings. Bike is a little stiff but I got used to it because it will never let me down in the canyons and is still all day comfortable. If I were you I'd look at total revalve of the front to match the rear with emphasis on plushness. You can adjust your springs preload spacer to get the adjustability range you prefer too.

BTW I am not advocating for Race Tech. They are by no means the only qualified suspension tuners. Do some investigating on your own and you might find a better value.

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I have found a very detailed piece of paper in the packaging with a lot of technical numbers that may mean something to someone!

Lange Lo (mm): 438

Aussen-Durchmesser (mm): 35.1

Draht Durchmesser (mm): 5.25

Zahl der Windungen: 44.72

Gabelol: SAE 10

Luftpolster (mm): 170

Lange Lo (mm): 438 Long "something"

Aussen-Durchmesser (mm): 35.1 Outside Diameter

Draht Durchmesser (mm): 5.25 Wire Diameter

Zahl der Windungen: 44.72 Number of Turns

Gabelol: SAE 10 Fork Oil

Luftpolster (mm): 170 Air Cushion

Taken from Google Translate, German to English

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What did you have to take off to remove/install your 6Gen shocks? I'll be trying it soon as well, when my new shock gets here?

All of us amateurs would like to know..........

I removed the rear wheel, lifted the rear of the fuel tank, supported under the brake caliper with a large floor jack, undid the 3 bolts for the triangle linkage, then jack the swingarm up as far as necessary to drop the shock out the bottom after undoing the top shock bracket bolt.

The 6th gen shock is shorter than the 5th gen one, so unless you have an adjustable length 6th gen shock, you'll have to shim the upper shock mount to equal the difference in length, which may require a longer mounting bolt from the top shock bracket through the frame.

IIRC, the 5th gen shock is 326mm length, and the VTEC unit is perhaps 318mm or maybe 314mm??? But do measure, as I'm a little foggy on that.

The procedure is really no different than outlined here:

EDIT! SHOCK LENGTH CHART FOUND HERE IN THE DOWNLOADS SECTION: http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php?autocom=downloads&showfile=83

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Thx, Rob well done write up. Makes it look easy, so I'll tackle it when my shock comes in.

I'm having a 929 re-valved and sprung by JD, and all the extra parts needed for the mod will come with it.

Thanks again :fing02:

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I think that revalving suspensions and such are rather unknown operations here in Athens.

Having said that the suspension specialist I went to see today about the suspension was very helpful. He had a look at the bike, he bounced the bike around and tweaked it a bit.

His conclusion is that the front is not even remotely hard, but rather soft. He increased the preload to the max saying that with the preload all the way out the bike simply has too much static sag and the suspension cannot be expected to work.

He said that the oil is not so relevant at this moment and it seems to be working.

He also turned the Hi setting on the back all the way out to soft claiming that it would make the rear very soft etc.

I took the bike home but I am still rather disappointed. The front /seems/ to be marginally better (still rather hard for my taste), but now the back seems to be very stiff. Riding over some bumps it occasionally kicked me up off the seat; definitely not what I would expect from a soft suspension.

I think that the compression/rebound is set to be too fast.

I am sure that this suspension tweaked a bit will be a right laugh on track or on smooth tarmac, but I use the VFR for travelling extensively and I have come to appreciate very much the silky smooth ride it offers (or did at least).

Not happy at all. I will tweak the suspension a bit more but in all honesty I am leaning more and more towards on removing the damn thing and returning everything to stock.

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PS. I was just reading about the awesome Hondayamosuzitriumph VFR750 project of our Brit friend and couldn't help but think that he changed mostly everything on his bike and I can't even get a damn suspension to work! LOL I am useless! :lol: :P

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PS. I was just reading about the awesome Hondayamosuzitriumph VFR750 project of our Brit friend and couldn't help but think that he changed mostly everything on his bike and I can't even get a damn suspension to work! LOL I am useless! :lol: :P

Jut because it's been done and looks good in pics does NOT mean that it works well in real life. Don't get discouraged, you'll get it fixed up.

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He increased the preload to the max saying that with the preload all the way out the bike simply has too much static sag and the suspension cannot be expected to work.

This is something you can easily check yourself. How much does the suspension compress both with and without you on it. This will get an idea if the springs are indeed not right for you.

http://www.sportrider.com/suspension_settings/suspension_setup/146_0402_suspension_setup_guide/index.html

I think that revalving suspensions and such are rather unknown operations here in Athens.

He said that the oil is not so relevant at this moment and it seems to be working.

He also turned the Hi setting on the back all the way out to soft claiming that it would make the rear very soft etc.

So this suspension 'specialist' can't revalve forks, and uses a heavier fork oil than recommended by the manufacturer with a spring he considers too soft? :blink:

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