Member Contributer KevCarver Posted June 5, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted June 5, 2011 This was the one I had in the RC51, which is set up nearly identical to the 5th Gen as far as battery and R/R location in relation to the rear cylinder head. The tail on both the RC and 5th get very hot under the plastic. Rode all day- zero issues, then the last fuel stop before home the starter was slightly weak but started. Concerned at the time, but not overly so because: it did start easily, I was wearing earplugs (hard to get a good read on the sound), and big twins are a bit tough to get spinning anyway. When I got home the battery would not turn the starter at all. Never a hitch on the final leg. Didn't get a look at the headlights, cause it didn't occur to me to look. It is the only bike I have with the stock R/R, but like I mentioned it ran 100% issue free. Last day of TMac was similar circumstances and ambient temperature with my 5th Gen, but it is fine. The three full days at Tmac before that were cooler out, but still full days of riding with no problems with that MOTY. The third one is in my Pacific Coast which does commuter and grocery getter duties. Warm out, but pretty short trips. 20-30 minutes at a time, usually. VFR and PC800 have voltmeters, and they read fine at all times. 13+ at key on, good charging voltage when running. I haven't yet put a voltmeter on the RC because it has always been a strong charger at idle checked with my multi-meter. I'll need to get out there and start it up with the AGM battery and check it over first, of course, but it is not looking good for the MOTY... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted June 5, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted June 5, 2011 I bought this one. $90.00 Shorai .. https://www.motomumm...id=18829&page=1 More I read about the Moty the more I did not like it. Sorry about it crap out on you .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted June 5, 2011 Author Member Contributer Share Posted June 5, 2011 Checked it today: lights came on and fuel pump primed, but no start. 10 volts at the battery. Swapped out for the AGM and it fired up and has 12v at idle. All R/R connectors are fine. MOTY went on the Battery Tender (I know not recommended, but not much to loose at this point) at was nearly 13v. So I took it off and will check back tomorrow to see if it's holding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer VFRBulldawg Posted June 5, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted June 5, 2011 I am having similar problems with my MOTY battery. It started right up when I first installed it. Then the bike had to sit for a while due to knee surgery. On two different occasions where the bike sat for 2-3 weeks without being started the battery was totally dead and I had to jump start it. The first morning at TMAC the battery was too weak to start the motor but there was some power I had to get a push to roll start it. Then last week I was giving short rides to some of my cousins up and down the street. I had been riding fairly slowly 25-35 mph with frequent stops for about 30 minutes when I shut the bike down. I triedvto start it again 5 minutes later and had to roll start it again. I was excited about this battery, but it's not working well. Far too unreliable. I intend to email MOTY about it next week. I hope they replace it. They seem like a new company and perhaps their quality control needs some work. Even though I got a discount on that limited number VFRD group buy I expect the battery to work for the $130 something I paid for it. If they don't replace it or the replacement has the same problems I'm going with a Shorai. I haven't seen anything but good reviews on those so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Ranger77 Posted June 5, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted June 5, 2011 I was thinking of getting one but didn't like the price. Guess this gives me another reason to wait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted June 6, 2011 Author Member Contributer Share Posted June 6, 2011 Perhaps I spoke too soon on my other MOTY installed bikes... I just went to the store on the PC800. Mid to low 12's at key on, which is a full volt lower than any other time previous to this. Running and at speed was barely 12, in the 11's most of the time, and into the 10's with brake lights on... I suppose the 15 year/67000+ mile old stator could be an issue, but it's quite a coincidence! Need to swap that battery out for the old AGM and take a ride, I suppose. By the way, the meter is wired into the original equipment accessory plug provided in the harness for the optional radio. Don't know if that makes much difference to whether it could be charging system or battery issues. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted June 6, 2011 Author Member Contributer Share Posted June 6, 2011 Interestinger and interestinger... PC800 with the AGM I originally got with it shows basically the same voltage as the MOTY did. Running, it shows about .4 lower on the volt meter than the readout on my multi meter direct on the terminals. RC with it's AGM again runs great, but no installed meter. Again came home and it would not re-fire after a minute. Too soon to blame MOTY? Or did the MOTY's somehow compromise my charging systems? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer VFRBulldawg Posted June 6, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted June 6, 2011 I sent MOTY and email this morning. Brian Harris got back to me real quick. They are going to send me a replacement battery. I've gotten nothing but good customer service with MOTY in all my dealings with them. Hopefully I just had a dud battery and the problems go away with the new one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer mello dude Posted June 6, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted June 6, 2011 Interestinger and interestinger... PC800 with the AGM I originally got with it shows basically the same voltage as the MOTY did. Running, it shows about .4 lower on the volt meter than the readout on my multi meter direct on the terminals. RC with it's AGM again runs great, but no installed meter. Again came home and it would not re-fire after a minute. Too soon to blame MOTY? Or did the MOTY's somehow compromise my charging systems? ---- The tail of my VFR gets crazy hot to the point of making the seat warm. I currently have a stock R/R in the thing. On my MOTY install, I ended up packing the thing in the battery box with some foam cut up from a knee pad, so its kinda like insulated from the all the heat going on. Dunno if it matters, but so far so good. (Admittedly my riding is limited this year, I have a messed up rotator cuff that gonna take damn near the rest of the year to heal up and riding is painful. F**k! ) I sent MOTY and email this morning. Brian Harris got back to me real quick. They are going to send me a replacement battery. I've gotten nothing but good customer service with MOTY in all my dealings with them. Hopefully I just had a dud battery and the problems go away with the new one. ------ MOTY is just one guy like Joshua (Tightwad) of wiremybike fame. So far Brian Harris seems like a stand up guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kaldek Posted June 7, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted June 7, 2011 Too soon to blame MOTY? Or did the MOTY's somehow compromise my charging systems? Unlikely that the MOTY compromised the charging system. If anything, it would be the other way around. Most likely your stator and/or reg/rec has crapped out and it's drained the MOTY dead. The thing with the MOTY batteries is that their amp/hour rating is lower than for a similar SIZED lead acid battery (even though they weigh less), but they have more cranking power per rated capacity. What's likely happened is that your charging system has died and it has drained your MOTY battery flat, which takes a lot less time than it would for a lead acid battery. Pretty sure the stock batteries are about 10 amp/hour, but the MOTY is 4 amp/hour. At 1 amp of drain, the MOTY will last a lot less time than the stock lead acid battery. And hence the problem. If your bike has an unreliable charging system, the MOTY batteries aren't necessarily the best option because they may not get you home. Pretty sure a VFR with its headlights on is going to be pulling at least 10 amps consistently (2 x 55 watt globes = 110 watts / 12 volts = ~10 amps, more if you add in your fuel pump, ECU, injectors, dash, and accessories). What I think is still "up for debate" is what effect a MOTY battery (or other LiFePO4 batteries) have over a long period of time (say, 10,000 miles or more) on a charging system that uses a regulator which dumps current into the stator when its regulating. Does the charging system have to do more regulation more often? Does this heat up the stator more than with a lead acid battery? Does this then burn up the stator? Only time (Edit: and a lot of miles spread across many different people with these batteries) will tell if a pattern emerges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kaldek Posted June 7, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted June 7, 2011 Then again, here's something worth reading: http://www.dotheton.com/forum/index.php?topic=23613.msg252255#msg252255 Seems that LiFePO4 is best matched with MOSFET regulators (or Compu-fire switching regulators). The post above refers to a guy whose Shorai battery caught fire due to a manufacturing defect (since resolved), but that the stock regulator only made the problem worse when the system demanded a lot of current. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kaldek Posted June 7, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted June 7, 2011 Hmm, based on that forum discussion I just ordered a Shorai battery. My 15 month old $280 (yes, seriously) Yuasa battery died a week ago, and I'll be buggered if I'm putting that much money into a battery again. Total cost shipped was $192 dollars, direct for Shorai. I'm overseas so naturally shipping was more expense; nobody in Australia sells Shorai batteries. The same Yuasa (YTZ-12S) I paid $280 in Aus costs $130 in the USA, and to make matters worse our dollar is currently worth more than yours. Us Aussies are getting FLEECED. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted June 7, 2011 Author Member Contributer Share Posted June 7, 2011 Too soon to blame MOTY? Or did the MOTY's somehow compromise my charging systems? Unlikely that the MOTY compromised the charging system. If anything, it would be the other way around. Most likely your stator and/or reg/rec has crapped out and it's drained the MOTY dead. The thing with the MOTY batteries is that their amp/hour rating is lower than for a similar SIZED lead acid battery (even though they weigh less), but they have more cranking power per rated capacity. What's likely happened is that your charging system has died and it has drained your MOTY battery flat, which takes a lot less time than it would for a lead acid battery. Pretty sure the stock batteries are about 10 amp/hour, but the MOTY is 4 amp/hour. At 1 amp of drain, the MOTY will last a lot less time than the stock lead acid battery. And hence the problem. If your bike has an unreliable charging system, the MOTY batteries aren't necessarily the best option because they may not get you home. Pretty sure a VFR with its headlights on is going to be pulling at least 10 amps consistently (2 x 55 watt globes = 110 watts / 12 volts = ~10 amps, more if you add in your fuel pump, ECU, injectors, dash, and accessories). What I think is still "up for debate" is what effect a MOTY battery (or other LiFePO4 batteries) have on a charging system which uses a regulator which dumps current into the stator when its regulating. Does the charging system have to do more regulation more often? Does this heat up the stator more than with a lead acid battery? Does this then burn up the stator? Only time will tell. Hmm, I only had time for a quick read through because I'm getting ready to head to work. But, your first and last paragraphs seem to be at odds with each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kaldek Posted June 7, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted June 7, 2011 Hmm, I only had time for a quick read through because I'm getting ready to head to work. But, your first and last paragraphs seem to be at odds with each other. Heh, true! The last paragraph is more about long term effects there - like over 10,000 miles or more. I should have asked how long yours has been in place for? I've edited my last paragraph to stop it being so contradictory! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wera803 Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 I'm overseas so naturally shipping was more expense; nobody in Australia sells Shorai batteries. Maybe you should become a dealer/distributor for them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted June 7, 2011 Author Member Contributer Share Posted June 7, 2011 The SP1 has OE stator and r/r. The PC800 has likely the OE stator and I replaced the r/r with a FH010 from a ZX10, which is essentially the same as the MOSFET FH012 from the R1. Plus I wired the DC output direct to the battery. It's wierd to me that both bikes, nearly simultaneously, developed the same symptoms. The '99 VFR has a FH012 wired to the battery like the PC800, and a brand new Ricks stator. Still running the MOTY with zero trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kaldek Posted June 7, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted June 7, 2011 I'm overseas so naturally shipping was more expense; nobody in Australia sells Shorai batteries. Maybe you should become a dealer/distributor for them? Nah. No money in it - that's the whole "problem" (if you want to call it that) with international trade; it's cheaper to let one guy do it and sell millions at low margin than thousands at high margin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted June 7, 2011 Author Member Contributer Share Posted June 7, 2011 I guess my best bet at this point is swap the r/r's in the PC800 and VFR, since they are the same connectors. Again, no issues from the VFR at this point. So if the PC charges and the VFR doesn't I'll have something. It's always possible that both my remaining AGM batteries are dead. They're not new, although I've kept them on the float chargers since removing them. Had that problem with the VFR. Battery was fine, then I took it all apart for all my work over the winter. When I reinstalled it, it failed. Despite showing a full charge and being on the charger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted June 8, 2011 Author Member Contributer Share Posted June 8, 2011 Too soon to blame MOTY? Or did the MOTY's somehow compromise my charging systems? Unlikely that the MOTY compromised the charging system. If anything, it would be the other way around. Most likely your stator and/or reg/rec has crapped out and it's drained the MOTY dead. The thing with the MOTY batteries is that their amp/hour rating is lower than for a similar SIZED lead acid battery (even though they weigh less), but they have more cranking power per rated capacity. What's likely happened is that your charging system has died and it has drained your MOTY battery flat, which takes a lot less time than it would for a lead acid battery. Pretty sure the stock batteries are about 10 amp/hour, but the MOTY is 4 amp/hour. At 1 amp of drain, the MOTY will last a lot less time than the stock lead acid battery. And hence the problem. If your bike has an unreliable charging system, the MOTY batteries aren't necessarily the best option because they may not get you home. Pretty sure a VFR with its headlights on is going to be pulling at least 10 amps consistently (2 x 55 watt globes = 110 watts / 12 volts = ~10 amps, more if you add in your fuel pump, ECU, injectors, dash, and accessories). What I think is still "up for debate" is what effect a MOTY battery (or other LiFePO4 batteries) have over a long period of time (say, 10,000 miles or more) on a charging system that uses a regulator which dumps current into the stator when its regulating. Does the charging system have to do more regulation more often? Does this heat up the stator more than with a lead acid battery? Does this then burn up the stator? Only time (Edit: and a lot of miles spread across many different people with these batteries) will tell if a pattern emerges. Ok, so here's my answer to this. The SP1 had, from the day I bought it (2.5 years ago), a strong charging system. The PC800 was pretty good until the r/r plug started arcing. So I replaced it with a MOSFET FH010 and wired the dc output direct to the battery. With a voltmeter wired in to the accessory plug, I had reading of mid to high 13's at idle. Same with the RC, stock charging system, measured at the battery via multi-meter. Both with AGM batteries. Swapped with the MOTY units at the beginning of the year, pretty much the same numbers but higher resting voltage. Saturday, 90% of the day was incident free. Last gas stop the battery sounded slightly low and was unable to start the bike after another hour of highway riding. Swapped to old AGM and was unable to start after a short ride- 20-30 min. Load tested that battery today, and it tested fine. MOTY is holding it's charge since I recharged it Saturday. The PC is able to restart itself, but the voltmeter readings are low 12's to mid 11's now. That's into discharge levels. Same numbers- AGM and MOTY. I swapped r/r's between the VFR and PC today with no changes in either. So I'm left with coincidental simultaneous stator failures as a theory at the moment. If memory serves, the proper test procedure requires a slightly more advanced multi-meter than I have. Need to read up on that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kaldek Posted June 8, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted June 8, 2011 So I'm left with coincidental simultaneous stator failures as a theory at the moment. If memory serves, the proper test procedure requires a slightly more advanced multi-meter than I have. Need to read up on that... It just has to do AC voltage - the $7 unit I got from Tightwad does that! Just disconnect the stator plug and start the bike. While it's running, check the AC voltage between pins 1-2, 1-3, and then 2-3 on the output of the stator. They should be about 18-22 volts, but all the same. Then rev the engine to 5,000rpm, hold it there and repeat the test. The AC voltage this time should be about 65 volts, but again they all need to read the same. If you get different voltages on the three readings (any more than, say, a volt or two), then the stator is stuffed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted June 8, 2011 Author Member Contributer Share Posted June 8, 2011 So I'm left with coincidental simultaneous stator failures as a theory at the moment. If memory serves, the proper test procedure requires a slightly more advanced multi-meter than I have. Need to read up on that... It just has to do AC voltage - the $7 unit I got from Tightwad does that! Just disconnect the stator plug and start the bike. While it's running, check the AC voltage between pins 1-2, 1-3, and then 2-3 on the output of the stator. They should be about 18-22 volts, but all the same. Then rev the engine to 5,000rpm, hold it there and repeat the test. The AC voltage this time should be about 65 volts, but again they all need to read the same. If you get different voltages on the three readings (any more than, say, a volt or two), then the stator is stuffed. Cool, I think I can manage that. I was thinking it was ohms and whatnot. That's the r/r? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wera803 Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Cool, I think I can manage that. I was thinking it was ohms and whatnot. That's the r/r? You could probably ohm each leg to ground and see if there is a direct short. That should show up in the voltage output check as well though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kaldek Posted June 9, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted June 9, 2011 Cool, I think I can manage that. I was thinking it was ohms and whatnot. That's the r/r? Nah you can also do the ohms test, but I've had stators pass the ohms test but not deliver any AC voltage! Ergo, I think the ohms test is freakin' useless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted June 9, 2011 Author Member Contributer Share Posted June 9, 2011 Cool, I think I can manage that. I was thinking it was ohms and whatnot. That's the r/r? Nah you can also do the ohms test, but I've had stators pass the ohms test but not deliver any AC voltage! Ergo, I think the ohms test is freakin' useless. Ah, I see. AC voltage test it is, then. Will do shortly. Apparently you and I are the only ones interested... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer VFRBulldawg Posted June 9, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted June 9, 2011 Ah, I see. AC voltage test it is, then. Will do shortly. Apparently you and I are the only ones interested... Nope, I've been tracking this thread the whole time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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