Guest dendron Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 This filter (Wally World Super Tech ST7317 made by Champion) was installed and torqued to spec (20 ft.lbs -- this just HAS to be wrong Honda!) per the VFR service manual on the last oil change. Just before reaching the 20 ft. lbs click the filter wrench began to spin on the cartridge. I've since come to realize through a consensus of other forum contributors that this should be hand-tightened + 1/4turn on said filter wrench, which is certainly less than 20 ft./lbs. So, no leaks all was well and good until it was time to remove this filter cartridge on the next oil change. No budgee!! Soaked the mating surface w/PB Blaster penetrating catalyst, waited 20 minutes for effect, hammered a screwdriver through the filter in an attempt to gain leverage, tugged counterclockwise. Still no budgee, except for the screwdriver ripping through the soft metal cartridge. Now, I've run out of options and was hoping to solicit possible solutions from the board. Thoughts anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted February 21, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted February 21, 2011 Well, screwdriver was my best idea! Must be a misprint in a manual somewhere, I swear that's the second time I heard that number. No good way to do it now, just keep working at it. Big channel locks or something. Find a more solid part of it and hammer it? Strap wrench might still work... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer whiteboyslo Posted February 21, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted February 21, 2011 strap wrench? looks like there may be enough left there to grab onto. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer canadIANviffer Posted February 21, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted February 21, 2011 Put a steel hose clamp on it as close to the base as possible. Tighten the clamp with a socket as tight as you can. Grab a big flat screwdriver and a hammer and tap it ever harder until it starts to turn. That oughtta do it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Jmmymc750 Posted February 21, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted February 21, 2011 well, you are already tearing up the filter. Continue. One of those "claw" type filter wrenches works for me in this situation (was an oil changer for awhile after college, and brake guy, tire guy, etc at the speedy lube - seen lots of these). Wal mart has the filter wrench I refer too, and I prefer them to the screwdriver method. You may have enough room there for the claw (they look like pliers, but big), and once you grab it and crush the filter (or its remains) a little, it will deform the mating surface and you should be able to get the thing spinning. Otherwise, just tear off the filter, and use some slip joints to get the base off. Cheers! P.S. +1 on the hand tight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Vecky5 Posted February 21, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted February 21, 2011 I did the same thing you did. I completely destroyed the filter with a screwdriver. I ended up taking off the evap cannister to gain easier access to the oil filter then grabbed the filter (or what was left of it) with some channel locks. It eventually broke loose then spun right off. What should have taken about 30 minutes and a few beers total took over an hour plus more beer than originally planned (which is not such a bad thing looking back). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer joneill Posted February 21, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted February 21, 2011 This filter (Wally World Super Tech ST7317 made by Champion) was installed and torqued to spec (20 ft.lbs -- this just HAS to be wrong Honda!) per the VFR service manual on the last oil change. Just before reaching the 20 ft. lbs click the filter wrench began to spin on the cartridge. I've since come to realize through a consensus of other forum contributors that this should be hand-tightened + 1/4turn on said filter wrench, which is certainly less than 20 ft./lbs. So, no leaks all was well and good until it was time to remove this filter cartridge on the next oil change. No budgee!! Soaked the mating surface w/PB Blaster penetrating catalyst, waited 20 minutes for effect, hammered a screwdriver through the filter in an attempt to gain leverage, tugged counterclockwise. Still no budgee, except for the screwdriver ripping through the soft metal cartridge. Now, I've run out of options and was hoping to solicit possible solutions from the board. Thoughts anyone? CanadianVFR has it right. Use the worm gear hose clamp and tighten at the base. Tapping the hose clamp will get to start to turn. If you tighten it with a socket and extension. Use the same socket and extension to tap the hose clamp. I no longer use a torque wrench on the filter, I tight by hand. When a filter is this hard to get off, it usually means that no oil was applied to the filter gasket before installation. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Well, screwdriver was my best idea! Must be a misprint in a manual somewhere, I swear that's the second time I heard that number. No good way to do it now, just keep working at it. Big channel locks or something. Find a more solid part of it and hammer it? Strap wrench might still work... A bit too much oil on the cartridge surface to get the strap wrench to grip, K. Plus no strap wrench leverage room with the exhaust pipe and coolant hoses in the way. Removing the evap. canister helps access a bit but still too tight. strap wrench? looks like there may be enough left there to grab onto. Mike The camera angle is deceptive. It's really too tight for a strap wrench. Put a steel hose clamp on it as close to the base as possible. Tighten the clamp with a socket as tight as you can. Grab a big flat screwdriver and a hammer and tap it ever harder until it starts to turn. That oughtta do it! Ah-ha! I like this. I have a 5" diameter worm drive clamp at work that I can try tomorrow. well, you are already tearing up the filter. Continue. One of those "claw" type filter wrenches works for me in this situation (was an oil changer for awhile after college, and brake guy, tire guy, etc at the speedy lube - seen lots of these). Wal mart has the filter wrench I refer too, and I prefer them to the screwdriver method. You may have enough room there for the claw (they look like pliers, but big), and once you grab it and crush the filter (or its remains) a little, it will deform the mating surface and you should be able to get the thing spinning. Otherwise, just tear off the filter, and use some slip joints to get the base off. Cheers! P.S. +1 on the hand tight. Trying not to buy new tools here, Jimmy. Though it may come to this. There may not be enough room for big pliers. I did the same thing you did. I completely destroyed the filter with a screwdriver. I ended up taking off the evap cannister to gain easier access to the oil filter then grabbed the filter (or what was left of it) with some channel locks. It eventually broke loose then spun right off. What should have taken about 30 minutes and a few beers total took over an hour plus more beer than originally planned (which is not such a bad thing looking back). My channel locks don't quite fit around the cartridge, but removing the evap. canister does provide a bit more access from the right side. Good idea! This filter (Wally World Super Tech ST7317 made by Champion) was installed and torqued to spec (20 ft.lbs -- this just HAS to be wrong Honda!) per the VFR service manual on the last oil change. Just before reaching the 20 ft. lbs click the filter wrench began to spin on the cartridge. I've since come to realize through a consensus of other forum contributors that this should be hand-tightened + 1/4turn on said filter wrench, which is certainly less than 20 ft./lbs. So, no leaks all was well and good until it was time to remove this filter cartridge on the next oil change. No budgee!! Soaked the mating surface w/PB Blaster penetrating catalyst, waited 20 minutes for effect, hammered a screwdriver through the filter in an attempt to gain leverage, tugged counterclockwise. Still no budgee, except for the screwdriver ripping through the soft metal cartridge. Now, I've run out of options and was hoping to solicit possible solutions from the board. Thoughts anyone? CanadianVFR has it right. Use the worm gear hose clamp and tighten at the base. Tapping the hose clamp will get to start to turn. If you tighten it with a socket and extension. Use the same socket and extension to tap the hose clamp. I no longer use a torque wrench on the filter, I tight by hand. When a filter is this hard to get off, it usually means that no oil was applied to the filter gasket before installation. Jack Thanks Jack for that confirmation. Yeah, I'm thinking this is the way to try. I did apply a thin coating to the filter gasket on installation, but maybe it was too thin, or, maybe...Honda's torque spec is WHACKED! :goofy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Ryanme17 Posted February 21, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted February 21, 2011 Put a steel hose clamp on it as close to the base as possible. Tighten the clamp with a socket as tight as you can. Grab a big flat screwdriver and a hammer and tap it ever harder until it starts to turn. That oughtta do it! That's brilliant! I wish I had thought of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Synaptic Misfire Posted February 21, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted February 21, 2011 Jack for that confirmation. Yeah, I'm thinking this is the way to try. I did apply a thin coating to the filter gasket on installation, but maybe it was too thin, or, maybe...Honda's torque spec is WHACKED! :goofy: I assume you used a 3/8" Ft/lbs torque wrench with a range between 15 and 150ft/lbs. Torque wrenches are the least accurate at the extremes of their range and the most in the middle, the variance can be upwards of +/-9% or better. It is best to keep a set of in/lbs and ft/lbs wrenches with a healthy overlap in range. I have a short handled in/lbs wrench I use for anything under 25ft/lbs for safety sake. That said oil filters don't need a torque value but writing "hand tight" in a service manual offends tech writers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer mello dude Posted February 22, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted February 22, 2011 This filter (Wally World Super Tech ST7317 made by Champion) was installed and torqued to spec (20 ft.lbs -- this just HAS to be wrong Honda!) per the VFR service manual on the last oil change. Just before reaching the 20 ft. lbs click the filter wrench began to spin on the cartridge. I've since come to realize through a consensus of other forum contributors that this should be hand-tightened + 1/4turn on said filter wrench, which is certainly less than 20 ft./lbs. Thoughts anyone? You got me curious and I looked in my 5th gen manual for oil changes. - Oil filter spec is 7 ft-lbs and Oil drain plug is 22ft-lbs. - 7 seems reasonable on th filter but 22 on the plug seems over zealous. No matter to me, I go by hand tight plus a quarter turn and by feel on the plug. Btw - for your problem I have a huge pair of channel locks with curved jaws that I would attack that with. Another idea, large pipe wrench? Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Jack for that confirmation. Yeah, I'm thinking this is the way to try. I did apply a thin coating to the filter gasket on installation, but maybe it was too thin, or, maybe...Honda's torque spec is WHACKED! :goofy: I assume you used a 3/8" Ft/lbs torque wrench with a range between 15 and 150ft/lbs. Torque wrenches are the least accurate at the extremes of their range and the most in the middle, the variance can be upwards of +/-9% or better. It is best to keep a set of in/lbs and ft/lbs wrenches with a healthy overlap in range. I have a short handled in/lbs wrench I use for anything under 25ft/lbs for safety sake. That said oil filters don't need a torque value but writing "hand tight" in a service manual offends tech writers. My 1/2" drive torque wrench scales to 150 ft./lbs. The 3/8" drive, which I used, scales to 100 ft/lbs at +/- 4% accuracy (supposedly), and it's fairly new. But you're right, lower torque settings are more accurately applied with a in/lbs wrench. And, that's really how the factory spec should have been described in the manual, in in/lbs. IMHO, 20 ft/lbs is serious overkill for a delicate motorcycle oil filter, leading to the problem I've described here. I'm sure I'm not the first to attempt to apply the service manual specification only to find the filter frozen in place on its removal. After all, this is what VFRD is so good at, being able to learn from other's experiences. :biggrin: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Jmmymc750 Posted February 22, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted February 22, 2011 Trying not buy new tools? I have always chosen my dwelling close to a Sears with good tool selection, much like early man chose based on water and game supply, along with fertile soil. If you need a tool, go buy it (even when I was in school the first time, that mantra worked to about the 50 dollar mark, when 50 dollars may as well have been 5000). Especially at 7 bucks. If you are going to do your own wrenching, you should never scrimp on tools. They will last (I bought the sockets that I currently use in 1988, from Sears). I hope the hose clamp tip works for you. Had you gone to Sears or Wally world for the filter pliers that I affectionately call the "claw", you would be out 7 bucks, less than the cost of a decent 6pack, and been done already, as you can almost get your channel locks around it, then you would certainly get the claw in there! The weather is 76 degrees here today, so I am thinking in riding time terms. Although, when I leave my office, I get to go home and sit in front of my home computer to work on some more writing. I don't get to ride really anyway! Booooo! Hiss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 This filter (Wally World Super Tech ST7317 made by Champion) was installed and torqued to spec (20 ft.lbs -- this just HAS to be wrong Honda!) per the VFR service manual on the last oil change. Just before reaching the 20 ft. lbs click the filter wrench began to spin on the cartridge. I've since come to realize through a consensus of other forum contributors that this should be hand-tightened + 1/4turn on said filter wrench, which is certainly less than 20 ft./lbs. Thoughts anyone? You got me curious and I looked in my 5th gen manual for oil changes. - Oil filter spec is 7 ft-lbs and Oil drain plug is 22ft-lbs. - 7 seems reasonable on th filter but 22 on the plug seems over zealous. No matter to me, I go by hand tight plus a quarter turn and by feel on the plug. Wow, from 7 to 20 ft/lbs, that's a huge difference between 5th and 6th gen oil filter torque specs, mello, for what is essentially the same operation! Drain plug torque is identical at 22, and 7 is prolly what the 6th gen filter should be also. It's hard to imagine what could account for such a wide difference. Maybe the engineers were concerned VTEC would circulate oil at a greater force and cause weeping at the filter junction or something. :blink: Trying not buy new tools? I have always chosen my dwelling close to a Sears with good tool selection, much like early man chose based on water and game supply, along with fertile soil. If you need a tool, go buy it (even when I was in school the first time, that mantra worked to about the 50 dollar mark, when 50 dollars may as well have been 5000). Especially at 7 bucks. If you are going to do your own wrenching, you should never scrimp on tools. They will last (I bought the sockets that I currently use in 1988, from Sears). I hope the hose clamp tip works for you. Had you gone to Sears or Wally world for the filter pliers that I affectionately call the "claw", you would be out 7 bucks, less than the cost of a decent 6pack, and been done already, as you can almost get your channel locks around it, then you would certainly get the claw in there! The weather is 76 degrees here today, so I am thinking in riding time terms. Although, when I leave my office, I get to go home and sit in front of my home computer to work on some more writing. I don't get to ride really anyway! Booooo! Hiss. I may have to investigate this "claw" of yours, Jimmy. Thanks for the tip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soichiro Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 You need to purchse an oil folter socket that fits perfectly on to the oil filter you are using. A perfect fitting cup would never spin on the filter. That and a long extension are ideal. At work when If i get an oil filter that jiffy lube put on at 4000ft,lb's I use a big pair of channel lock type oil filter pliers. I havent had a filter that I couldnt remove with these. They are actually like channel locks but only have a few teeth and are meant for removing oil filters. They are even curved to get in there. Forget the torque spec. I have been a professional tech for nearly 20 years and have never torqued an oil filter. Put it on hand tight and use the cup, socket to snug it up. The claw type oil filter pliers are the best solution to this problem. I have only had to buy one plier. I assume your oil filter socket fits well but slipped because of how tight. Good thing it didnt leak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericlw Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 you dont need a torque wrench for the oil filter. you will always over tighten it that way.heck i dont even use a torque wrench on the drain bolt. no need to tighten it to right before you snap off the bolt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 You need to purchse an oil folter socket that fits perfectly on to the oil filter you are using. That and a long extension are ideal. At work when I get an oil filter that jiffy lube put on at 4000ft,lb's I use a big pair of channel lock type oil folter pliers. I havent had a filter that I couldnt remove with these. They are actually like channel locks but only have a few teeth and are meant for removing oil filters. Forget the torque spec. I have been a professional tech for nearly 20 years and have never torqued an oil filter. Put it on hand tight and use the cup, socket to snug it up. Sounds like Jimmymc750's "claw." Yep, I'll definitely have to pick-up that tool. I realize you don't concern yourself with torque specs on oil filters, soichiro, nor do I...anymore. But, I'm curious, what would cause Honda to bump the "official" spec from 7 to 20 ft./lbs from 5th to 6th gens? Thanks for your help, I'll hang up now and take your reply off the air. :biggrin: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soichiro Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 You need to purchse an oil folter socket that fits perfectly on to the oil filter you are using. That and a long extension are ideal. At work when I get an oil filter that jiffy lube put on at 4000ft,lb's I use a big pair of channel lock type oil folter pliers. I havent had a filter that I couldnt remove with these. They are actually like channel locks but only have a few teeth and are meant for removing oil filters. Forget the torque spec. I have been a professional tech for nearly 20 years and have never torqued an oil filter. Put it on hand tight and use the cup, socket to snug it up. Sounds like Jimmymc750's "claw." Yep, I'll definitely have to pick-up that tool. I realize you don't concern yourself with torque specs on oil filters, soichiro, nor do I...anymore. But, I'm curious, what would cause Honda to bump the "official" spec from 7 to 20 ft./lbs from 5th to 6th gens? Thanks for your help, I'll hang up now and take your reply off the air. :biggrin: It could be a mistake. We find errors in honda manuals, parts books all the time. I tighten the filter by hand and then snug it up with socket. I put mine on pretty tight but my socket fits perfect, so I have no trouble removing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soichiro Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 You need to purchse an oil folter socket that fits perfectly on to the oil filter you are using. That and a long extension are ideal. At work when I get an oil filter that jiffy lube put on at 4000ft,lb's I use a big pair of channel lock type oil folter pliers. I havent had a filter that I couldnt remove with these. They are actually like channel locks but only have a few teeth and are meant for removing oil filters. Forget the torque spec. I have been a professional tech for nearly 20 years and have never torqued an oil filter. Put it on hand tight and use the cup, socket to snug it up. Sounds like Jimmymc750's "claw." Yep, I'll definitely have to pick-up that tool. I realize you don't concern yourself with torque specs on oil filters, soichiro, nor do I...anymore. But, I'm curious, what would cause Honda to bump the "official" spec from 7 to 20 ft./lbs from 5th to 6th gens? Thanks for your help, I'll hang up now and take your reply off the air. :biggrin: It could be a mistake. We find errors in honda manuals, parts books all the time. I tighten the filter by hand and then snug it up with socket. I put mine on pretty tight but my socket fits perfect, so I have no trouble removing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer mello dude Posted February 22, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted February 22, 2011 ^^^^^^ It's probably an error. I have 3 other Honda manuals and stuff is listed as follows --- - Valkyrie = 7 ft-lbs filter, 25 ft-lbs plug, -4th gen = 7 ft-lbs filter, 22 ft-bs plug, -- Super Hawk VTR1000 = 7 ft-lbs filter, 22 ft-lbs plug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 It could be a mistake. We find errors in honda manuals, parts books all the time. I tighten the filter by hand and then snug it up with socket. I put mine on pretty tight but my socket fits perfect, so I have no trouble removing it. ^^^^^^ It's probably an error. I have 3 other Honda manuals and stuff is listed as follows --- - Valkyrie = 7 ft-lbs filter, 25 ft-lbs plug, -4th gen = 7 ft-lbs filter, 22 ft-bs plug, -- Super Hawk VTR1000 = 7 ft-lbs filter, 22 ft-lbs plug By Jove, I think we've hit it, mates! I would say a mistake is definitely the case here. That's what I get for taking the manual literally; it's just plain wrong! Thanks for your all insight, folks, experience is the best teacher. So, Mother Honda makes mistakes, too...who knew? :comp13: Now, if I can just get the damn filter off. I'll update later after trying a couple of approaches mentioned in this thread. Appreciate your thoughts,everybody. :fing02: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monk Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I'll back off as well, I have been using the manual torque value, but have been using a tight fitting(Honda) oil filter socket, so I've had no problems, but I could tell it's tighter than my hand tightening methods in my "previous live". Thx for the tip... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I'll back off as well, I have been using the manual torque value, but have been using a tight fitting(Honda) oil filter socket, so I've had no problems, but I could tell it's tighter than my hand tightening methods in my "previous live". Thx for the tip... I'm using the same OEM filter wrench, Monk, but the Super Tech filters don't fit it quite as well as the Honda filters, for obvious reasons I suppose, but I'm cheap. And, sometimes that costs you more in the long run. :blush: But, it should work fine on the Super Tech for 1/4 turn after hand tightening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer BusyLittleShop Posted February 22, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted February 22, 2011 Thoughts anyone? I hope you started the engine and allow temp to rise until the fan came on... heat is your friend because it will expand every part and release tension... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer VFRBulldawg Posted February 22, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted February 22, 2011 I had this same problem about 8 months ago though mine had only been hand tightening. I broke tools trying to get it off. Click on the thread below. My Stuck Oil Filter Thread In the first reply Seb recommended a "claw" like filter wrench made by Powerbuilt. It worked like a charm once I got it. The harder you torque the socket wrench you have it on, the harder it grips the filter. Not sure if the fact that you have already torn some of the filter housing will reduce it's effectiveness. I had dented mine pretty well attacking it with various other filter wrench tools and strap wrenches before I tried this one. But I didn't want to try the screwdriver through the filter method except as a last resort because I was afraid of the situation you're in now. Also, it is very important that you clean the outside of the filter with soap and water and get it really dry. Just a little bit of oil or even water will greatly reduce the amount of force you can apply with any kind of filter wrench. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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