3 yellow wires connection....

[Sabredood]

Well I finally had some time to do a couple of minor tasks on the 'Ceptor yesterday so I did a lil 'sploring while I had the seat fairing off. SURELY, I thought to myself, there is no real NEED to look at the connector plug for the RR as everything else under there looks clean and dry, right? Imagine my surprise when I peeled back the insulation boot over the bundle and saw this:

This is a VERY common problem on the older Hondas like my Sabre and the fix is easy (assuming you get to it before the inevitable TOTAL meltdown while riding FAR from home!), but I figured by '98 this kind of thing would have been eliminated by a better designed connector plug or perhaps better materials. Sure glad I caught this early. Guess I'd better look at all the connectors on this bike...just like the old bikes LOL.

[Serenity_VFR]

The first thing I'd do to a new VFR would be to remove that connector, coat the stripped conductor ends with anti-ox grease, crimp on butt splices, and completely coat each splice plus 2" over the insulation on each side with liquid electrical tape to completely seal out the elements.

Electrically, it wouldn't be any different than a solid length of wire. As far as corrosion it would be water-tight and protected within by anti-ox grease, and the I'd wrap it good with electrical tape to support the connection mechanically while strapping it to the subframe to isolate it from any flexing or vibrations which might weaken the crimps over time.

But that's the electrician in me talking. I hate going back and fixing stuff for industrial customers that breaks after I work on it. It cuts into both my reputation and my profit margin.

[SEBSPEED]

The first thing I'd do to a new VFR would be to remove that connector, coat the stripped conductor ends with anti-ox grease, crimp on butt splices, and completely coat each splice plus 2" over the insulation on each side with liquid electrical tape to completely seal out the elements.

Electrically, it wouldn't be any different than a solid length of wire. As far as corrosion it would be water-tight and protected within by anti-ox grease, and the I'd wrap it good with electrical tape to support the connection mechanically while strapping it to the subframe to isolate it from any flexing or vibrations which might weaken the crimps over time.

But that's the electrician in me talking. I hate going back and fixing stuff for industrial customers that breaks after I work on it. It cuts into both my reputation and my profit margin.

If you're gonna go through that trouble, just solder them! Or put in a VFRness to really fix the problem.

[Serenity_VFR]

If you're gonna go through that trouble, just solder them! Or put in a VFRness to really fix the problem.

Soldering is inferior to a correctly-done crimp splice. In fact, it's against the electrical code in most instances because it is not mechanically secure. It's how they used to do things back in the 40's and 50's before we learned better.

Go ask your electrical utility if you can solder on the service entrance cables going to your electrical meter and see what they say...

:fing02:

[Sabredood]

Ultimately, I'll solder the connections and shrink-wrap the joints, but since I'm soldering iron challenged right now, I've put 3 separate crimp connections there (well coated with dielectric grease of course) and wrapped them thoroughly with elect. tape. This will hold nicely for now. Eventually, I'll solder them for a permanent fix.

The first thing I'd do to a new VFR would be to remove that connector, coat the stripped conductor ends with anti-ox grease, crimp on butt splices, and completely coat each splice plus 2" over the insulation on each side with liquid electrical tape to completely seal out the elements.

Electrically, it wouldn't be any different than a solid length of wire. As far as corrosion it would be water-tight and protected within by anti-ox grease, and the I'd wrap it good with electrical tape to support the connection mechanically while strapping it to the subframe to isolate it from any flexing or vibrations which might weaken the crimps over time.

But that's the electrician in me talking. I hate going back and fixing stuff for industrial customers that breaks after I work on it. It cuts into both my reputation and my profit margin.

If you're gonna go through that trouble, just solder them! Or put in a VFRness to really fix the problem.

[Serenity_VFR]

Ultimately, I'll solder the connections and shrink-wrap the joints, but since I'm soldering iron challenged right now, I've put 3 separate crimp connections there (well coated with dielectric grease of course) and wrapped them thoroughly with elect. tape. This will hold nicely for now. Eventually, I'll solder them for a permanent fix.

In my experience I've found that electrical tape and even shrink-wrap are very poor at keeping out moisture -although they do a good job of keeping it IN. I've seen joints wrapped in electrical tape by well-meaning "maintenance men" in wet and damp locations that failed twice as fast as open wire nuts due to the build-up of moisture (basically they never can dry out).

If you want to use shrink wrap to seal out moisture one has to put at least one ring of mastic tape over the insulation about 1" back from the stripped end and then let the heat shrink pass over that another inch. When the mastic tape is compressed by the shrink wrap it makes a very good water-proof seal. Without the mastic, the moisture will permiate the shrink-wrap and actually be sucked up like a straw into the corrosion-prone joint with every heat cycle (regardless of its type, copper and aluminum are prone to corrosion by moisture).

The mastic works very well and it's exactly the procedure we use in high voltage cable terminations (except that these days we don't use heat shrink and instead use "cold shrink" which is pre-stretched by internal coil scaffolding that is peeled away from the inside to allow the pre-tensioned boot collapse on the tapered splice parts inside.

Liquid electrical tape is the thing for sealing out moisture. It's a great moisture barrier and easy to apply (if a bit messy if you are not careful).

[Sabredood]

LIQUID electrical tape? HMMMMM....that sounds like just the stuff! Never heard of it before but I'll look into that. Avail at car parts stores?

Ultimately, I'll solder the connections and shrink-wrap the joints, but since I'm soldering iron challenged right now, I've put 3 separate crimp connections there (well coated with dielectric grease of course) and wrapped them thoroughly with elect. tape. This will hold nicely for now. Eventually, I'll solder them for a permanent fix.

In my experience I've found that electrical tape and even shrink-wrap are very poor at keeping out moisture -although they do a good job of keeping it IN. I've seen joints wrapped in electrical tape by well-meaning "maintenance men" in wet and damp locations that failed twice as fast as open wire nuts due to the build-up of moisture (basically they never can dry out).

If you want to use shrink wrap to seal out moisture one has to put at least one ring of mastic tape over the insulation about 1" back from the stripped end and then let the heat shrink pass over that another inch. When the mastic tape is compressed by the shrink wrap it makes a very good water-proof seal. Without the mastic, the moisture will permiate the shrink-wrap and actually be sucked up like a straw into the corrosion-prone joint with every heat cycle (regardless of its type, copper and aluminum are prone to corrosion by moisture).

The mastic works very well and it's exactly the procedure we use in high voltage cable terminations (except that these days we don't use heat shrink and instead use "cold shrink" which is pre-stretched by internal coil scaffolding that is peeled away from the inside to allow the pre-tensioned boot collapse on the tapered splice parts inside.

Liquid electrical tape is the thing for sealing out moisture. It's a great moisture barrier and easy to apply (if a bit messy if you are not careful).

[Serenity_VFR]

LIQUID electrical tape? HMMMMM....that sounds like just the stuff! Never heard of it before but I'll look into that. Avail at car parts stores?

Ultimately, I'll solder the connections and shrink-wrap the joints, but since I'm soldering iron challenged right now, I've put 3 separate crimp connections there (well coated with dielectric grease of course) and wrapped them thoroughly with elect. tape. This will hold nicely for now. Eventually, I'll solder them for a permanent fix.

In my experience I've found that electrical tape and even shrink-wrap are very poor at keeping out moisture -although they do a good job of keeping it IN. I've seen joints wrapped in electrical tape by well-meaning "maintenance men" in wet and damp locations that failed twice as fast as open wire nuts due to the build-up of moisture (basically they never can dry out).

If you want to use shrink wrap to seal out moisture one has to put at least one ring of mastic tape over the insulation about 1" back from the stripped end and then let the heat shrink pass over that another inch. When the mastic tape is compressed by the shrink wrap it makes a very good water-proof seal. Without the mastic, the moisture will permiate the shrink-wrap and actually be sucked up like a straw into the corrosion-prone joint with every heat cycle (regardless of its type, copper and aluminum are prone to corrosion by moisture).

The mastic works very well and it's exactly the procedure we use in high voltage cable terminations (except that these days we don't use heat shrink and instead use "cold shrink" which is pre-stretched by internal coil scaffolding that is peeled away from the inside to allow the pre-tensioned boot collapse on the tapered splice parts inside.

Liquid electrical tape is the thing for sealing out moisture. It's a great moisture barrier and easy to apply (if a bit messy if you are not careful).

It's basically paint-on thermal-plastic insulation, similar to those "plasti-dip" tool handle repair cans you can buy at tool or hardware stores.

Liquid electrical tape

Most hardware stores and places like Home Depot, Lowes, Menards have it in the electrical department. It comes in a can with a little brush inside and I've even seen it in an aerosol spray can. Buy as small of a can of it as you can get away with as most likely the next time you go to use it the whole bottle will be hardened. It's air-activated reactive chemical reaction that makes it harden. The last time I bought it a small can was about $4-5. You can also buy it in different colors so you can have red and black and color-code with the wires.

We build a lot of "permanent Christmas displays" for charity and take regular Christmas lights and cut the plugs off and permanently connect them with wire-nuts. Dip the whole wire-nut and a couple of inches of the wire leading into it into this stuff and let it dry and it's totally water-proof and won't back off. The only way to get it off is to cut the wires. Other than the fact that this is ugly and people would rib the hell out of you I'd be comfortable using it this way on a motorcycle long-term.

I've built harnesses for cranes and various other construction/industrial equipment like scissors lifts, portable gravel/rock elevators, concrete silos using this method that have lasted for decades in constant every-day use. As long as the crimp was done properly, is protected by anti-ox grease, the liquid tape is water-tight, and the joint is mechanically supported so vibration and physical damage can't mess it up it will last as long as unbroken wire. Long gone are the days when things can always be hard-piped due to weight and movement restrictions so a lot of industrial equipment needs to be wired with flexible cords (Type SO and SWO) and much of these come from the original factories with multi-pin connectors that often suffer the same fate as the Honda R/R connectors if there is any load on them. We just cut them off and hard-wire them the way I described and rarely have any problems. For control and low-voltage cabling it's perfectly fine and works well for years and years without trouble.

[Sabredood]

Now THAT sounds like a proper fix! Thanks, Man! :comp13:

LIQUID electrical tape? HMMMMM....that sounds like just the stuff! Never heard of it before but I'll look into that. Avail at car parts stores?

Ultimately, I'll solder the connections and shrink-wrap the joints, but since I'm soldering iron challenged right now, I've put 3 separate crimp connections there (well coated with dielectric grease of course) and wrapped them thoroughly with elect. tape. This will hold nicely for now. Eventually, I'll solder them for a permanent fix.

In my experience I've found that electrical tape and even shrink-wrap are very poor at keeping out moisture -although they do a good job of keeping it IN. I've seen joints wrapped in electrical tape by well-meaning "maintenance men" in wet and damp locations that failed twice as fast as open wire nuts due to the build-up of moisture (basically they never can dry out).

If you want to use shrink wrap to seal out moisture one has to put at least one ring of mastic tape over the insulation about 1" back from the stripped end and then let the heat shrink pass over that another inch. When the mastic tape is compressed by the shrink wrap it makes a very good water-proof seal. Without the mastic, the moisture will permiate the shrink-wrap and actually be sucked up like a straw into the corrosion-prone joint with every heat cycle (regardless of its type, copper and aluminum are prone to corrosion by moisture).

The mastic works very well and it's exactly the procedure we use in high voltage cable terminations (except that these days we don't use heat shrink and instead use "cold shrink" which is pre-stretched by internal coil scaffolding that is peeled away from the inside to allow the pre-tensioned boot collapse on the tapered splice parts inside.

Liquid electrical tape is the thing for sealing out moisture. It's a great moisture barrier and easy to apply (if a bit messy if you are not careful).

It's basically paint-on thermal-plastic insulation, similar to those "plasti-dip" tool handle repair cans you can buy at tool or hardware stores.

Liquid electrical tape

Most hardware stores and places like Home Depot, Lowes, Menards have it in the electrical department. It comes in a can with a little brush inside and I've even seen it in an aerosol spray can. Buy as small of a can of it as you can get away with as most likely the next time you go to use it the whole bottle will be hardened. It's air-activated reactive chemical reaction that makes it harden. The last time I bought it a small can was about $4-5. You can also buy it in different colors so you can have red and black and color-code with the wires.

We build a lot of "permanent Christmas displays" for charity and take regular Christmas lights and cut the plugs off and permanently connect them with wire-nuts. Dip the whole wire-nut and a couple of inches of the wire leading into it into this stuff and let it dry and it's totally water-proof and won't back off. The only way to get it off is to cut the wires. Other than the fact that this is ugly and people would rib the hell out of you I'd be comfortable using it this way on a motorcycle long-term.

I've built harnesses for cranes and various other construction/industrial equipment like scissors lifts, portable gravel/rock elevators, concrete silos using this method that have lasted for decades in constant every-day use. As long as the crimp was done properly, is protected by anti-ox grease, the liquid tape is water-tight, and the joint is mechanically supported so vibration and physical damage can't mess it up it will last as long as unbroken wire. Long gone are the days when things can always be hard-piped due to weight and movement restrictions so a lot of industrial equipment needs to be wired with flexible cords (Type SO and SWO) and much of these come from the original factories with multi-pin connectors that often suffer the same fate as the Honda R/R connectors if there is any load on them. We just cut them off and hard-wire them the way I described and rarely have any problems. For control and low-voltage cabling it's perfectly fine and works well for years and years without trouble.

[SEBSPEED]

If you're gonna go through that trouble, just solder them! Or put in a VFRness to really fix the problem.

Soldering is inferior to a correctly-done crimp splice. In fact, it's against the electrical code in most instances because it is not mechanically secure. It's how they used to do things back in the 40's and 50's before we learned better.

Go ask your electrical utility if you can solder on the service entrance cables going to your electrical meter and see what they say...

:comp13: :comp13:

Prove it. And show me the "code book" for motorcycle electrics while you're at it, I'd love to see it...

When I say prove it, I mean go buy what the average Joe thinks of when they hear crimp connector - a wally world pack of (at best) 3M crimp connectors made from crappy metal. Make your connections and measure the resistance vs a solder joint.

We're not working on houses here dude.

[VFR Capt.Bob]

I've been chasing down these same electrical issues on my 98 only to find Stator wires seized together by by their insulation from heat with the connection looking like yours. This after using the "VFRness" I seperated the wires with extra wraps of electrical tape to create space then replaced the plug with a terminal strip. I soldered on ring connection for each wire. Solved that problem but now i have the exact same condition as yours but with only one wire burned. Think I I'll repaiar it as described here with crimped connectors anti ox grease and liquid tape. Is dialectic grease the same as anti ox? Never hear of the later.

[Serenity_VFR]

Now THAT sounds like a proper fix! Thanks, Man! :comp13:

A motorcycle Rectifier and Regulator circuit really should be a robust and simple circuit. The R/R hooks up to the battery with a 30A fuse. The total draw of all the VFR electrical loads shouldn't draw more than 10-20A stock and 30A at the outside and that for only intermittent duty.

The wires involved and all the connectors do just fine when the bike is new and it's only when they get a few miles on them and they start to degrade due to corrosion that the VFR harness issue begins to raise its head.

There really isn't any reason the primary (yellow) wires should be carrying that much load so as to build up the head necessary to damage the 3P connector if it is clean and covered in anti-ox grease. Ohms law (I=E/R) tells us that 3 50v A/C wires should carry the same amount of power than one 12v DC one does on the secondary, and with much less current. If each one were carrying a balanced load of 10A or more for any significant time I'd be surprised. I'm too lazy to do the math in my head but it can't be much.

The problem must be elsewhere. The R/R is just a simple Diode rectifier with a basic ground-shunt voltage regulator circuit. My theory is that it is the ground path from the R/R that is the issue. If the ground is not good then the R/R is causing unbalanced transient circulating currents to travel back and forth through the primary yellow wires and the stator coils instead of being properly shunted to ground through the R/R. This is where the crazy amperage is just circulating and the 3-phase wave-forms are layering when they are filled with harmonic waveforms at multiples of the normal AC frequency of the stator coils. This causes HUGE circulating currents that add up instead of canceling themselves out like they would normally in a healthy regulated and rectified AC/DC bridge.

This poor grounding can be seen in the rats-nest of ground wires in the OEM VFR harness and is something that the VFRness seems to correct. I decided to fix my harness myself by splitting it open near the battery and cleaning up the ground path and connections and beefing up the main grounds to the battery, the main frame ground point on the left side of the bike, and to the R/R. The R/R and every other DC load on the bike is GROUNDED now and the places where the harness connects to the frame is clean and lubed.

I also installed the Kurykyan LED voltmeter to make sure I can monitor the system voltage. So far it's been perfect for almost 2 years since I had my own problem. I don't want to have to fix it again, or get stranded miles from home, and I don't want to spend big $$ on a new stator or R/R or even a battery. I'm cheap.

Watch those grounds!

[Serenity_VFR]

I've been chasing down these same electrical issues on my 98 only to find Stator wires seized together by by their insulation from heat with the connection looking like yours. This after using the "VFRness" I seperated the wires with extra wraps of electrical tape to create space then replaced the plug with a terminal strip. I soldered on ring connection for each wire. Solved that problem but now i have the exact same condition as yours but with only one wire burned. Think I I'll repaiar it as described here with crimped connectors anti ox grease and liquid tape. Is dialectic grease the same as anti ox? Never hear of the later.

You can buy the stuff at just about any hardware store or home store -Home Despot has it. It's cheap. I put it on every electrical connection I make that might see the least bit of moisture.

Ace Hardware has it. It's cheap. A small bottle will last just about forever unless you are routinely building 4000A services for commercial and industrial buildings.

And no, SEBSPEED, I'm not a residential rat. I'm an "inside commercial wireman" Residential rope-runners get paid about 60% of my scale.

As for solder joints. Like I said, it is not legal in most cases unless it is done a certain way and by that point it is just "gilding the lily" so to speak. Once a joint is already mechanically and electrically secure what is the solder actually DOING? wasting time and heating up the conductor and insulation making them brittle and more subject to damage in the long run.

From the National Electrical Code, Article 110 "Requirements for Electrical Installations," 110.14(b)

[VFR Capt.Bob]

I've been chasing down these same electrical issues on my 98 only to find Stator wires seized together by by their insulation from heat with the connection looking like yours. This after using the "VFRness" I seperated the wires with extra wraps of electrical tape to create space then replaced the plug with a terminal strip. I soldered on ring connection for each wire. Solved that problem but now i have the exact same condition as yours but with only one wire burned. Think I I'll repaiar it as described here with crimped connectors anti ox grease and liquid tape. Is dialectic grease the same as anti ox? Never hear of the later.

You can buy the stuff at just about any hardware store or home store -Home Despot has it. It's cheap. I put it on every electrical connection I make that might see the least bit of moisture.

Ace Hardware has it. It's cheap. A small bottle will last just about forever unless you are routinely building 4000A services for commercial and industrial buildings.

And no, SEBSPEED, I'm not a residential rat. I'm an "inside commercial wireman" Residential rope-runners get paid about 60% of my scale.

As for solder joints. Like I said, it is not legal in most cases unless it is done a certain way and by that point it is just "gilding the lily" so to speak. Once a joint is already mechanically and electrically secure what is the solder actually DOING? wasting time and heating up the conductor and insulation making them brittle and more subject to damage in the long run.

From the National Electrical Code, Article 110 "Requirements for Electrical Installations," 110.14(b)

From one union man to another thanks. I can honestly say my attempts at soldering have looked more harmful than helpful. Gonna go through my grounds too.

[VFR Capt.Bob]

Well I finally had some time to do a couple of minor tasks on the 'Ceptor yesterday so I did a lil 'sploring while I had the seat fairing off. SURELY, I thought to myself, there is no real NEED to look at the connector plug for the RR as everything else under there looks clean and dry, right? Imagine my surprise when I peeled back the insulation boot over the bundle and saw this:

This is a VERY common problem on the older Hondas like my Sabre and the fix is easy (assuming you get to it before the inevitable TOTAL meltdown while riding FAR from home!), but I figured by '98 this kind of thing would have been eliminated by a better designed connector plug or perhaps better materials. Sure glad I caught this early. Guess I'd better look at all the connectors on this bike...just like the old bikes LOL.

I replaced that entire plug with a wire terminal strip and new connections. No problem with it since. However the plug below it with the red and green wires I just replace a single burnt connection with solder and found the small stock green wire too thin and brittle after solering to be trusted and am going to re do it.

Would this be a grounding issue or just a localized connection issue?

[Serenity_VFR]

From one union man to another thanks. I can honestly say my attempts at soldering have looked more harmful than helpful. Gonna go through my grounds too.

If you really want to solder a wire the easiest way to do it is to get some plumbing flux and just dip the wire into it and then roll it around a little bit under your finger to get the flux under all the strands. Then when you touch the solder to the wires it just flows in. Without the flux the solder beads off and drips away and you don't get a good connection (cold solder joint).

IMHO it's harder to get a good solder joint that won't melt or crack under vibration than it is to get a good crimp -especially if you use anti-ox grease which makes it even easier as the grease lubricates the strands and helps the connector barrel push it aside and deform it properly so it doesn't wiggle. It's like the difference between trying to tighten a nice lubed nut on a bolt over one that is dry and rusty. Plus the grease ensures a good electrical connection as well as a good mechanical one.

I shudder to think at how many people thought they were getting a good solder joint on some wires only to have a crappy cold joint that cracked and failed after it went through a few radical heat cycles. Heating and cooling cuases a joint to expand and contract. The spring action of a crimp will accommodate this. A poor solder joint will just crack open and begin to fail -especially if there is vibration present. There is a reason why Honda doesn't solder the wiring harness on is bikes and it isn't just because they are cheap and want to work fast. Heat, high loads (more heat), and vibration are the enemy of solder. It's brittle stuff that doesn't bend or flex for crap, and it's expansion qualities are not the same as copper so the solder and the copper are not growing and shrinking with the temperature at the same rate. Soldering aluminum wires is even worse.

[Serenity_VFR]

I replaced that entire plug with a wire terminal strip and new connections. No problem with it since. However the plug below it with the red and green wires I just replace a single burnt connection with solder and found the small stock green wire too thin and brittle after solering to be trusted and am going to re do it.

Would this be a grounding issue or just a localized connection issue?

A good compression set-screw strip connector would work well as long as it was kept dry and free of corrosion. They make them for underground feeder wires for splicing and direct burial that would do the job just fine and can be found at most large home stores and any electrical wholesale house. I used crimps and sealed them my own way because I'm cheap and I have all the parts on hand.

The 4P secondary connection plug from the R/R has 2 #14AWG green wires that run in parallel across the bike to the frame ground point on the right side of the bike just above the footpeg my Gen5.

I augmented them with a #10AWG wire because I really didn't like the looks of the connector at the frame. It looks poorly done (too tight) and there isn't much metal there. I left it in and put it all back together after cleaning/sanding/greasing. On the other side I put all the green wires under a huge split bolt with plenty of Nolox and tightened the living crap out of it and dipped the whole ball/wad in the liquid electrical tape to make sure it was good and sealed up. It's not the best solution in the world but It'll hold for a damn long time. If there is a place for solder this would have been it -but I didn't want to mess with rigging up an old-fashioned solder pot. As long as the moisture doesn't get in the compression split bolt will hold forever just fine.

I'm more concerned with the ground bolt on the frame going bad over time. It's hard to spot oxidation on aluminum and it is a very poor conductor. I'm convinced that the 4P connector with the 2 green and 2 red wires at the R/R and the bolt on the frame is the source of many R/R problems. I can't prove it, but I've got more than a hunch.

[TomG33]

If you're gonna go through that trouble, just solder them! Or put in a VFRness to really fix the problem.

Soldering is inferior to a correctly-done crimp splice. In fact, it's against the electrical code in most instances because it is not mechanically secure. It's how they used to do things back in the 40's and 50's before we learned better.

Go ask your electrical utility if you can solder on the service entrance cables going to your electrical meter and see what they say...

:biggrin: :beer:

Prove it. And show me the "code book" for motorcycle electrics while you're at it, I'd love to see it...

When I say prove it, I mean go buy what the average Joe thinks of when they hear crimp connector - a wally world pack of (at best) 3M crimp connectors made from crappy metal. Make your connections and measure the resistance vs a solder joint.

We're not working on houses here dude.

I'm coming out to bat for Senerity_VFR here.

What he is saying is absolutely true, proven time and time over in almost any industrial installation. (I got over 30 years experience in that)

1

There are many ways to solder wrongly, and only one way to solder correctly. Most people that have not learned soldering at trade level suck at it. Even if it is soldered correctly, if the joint is subject to heat expansion cycles or mechanical movement, It's going to fail. One of the reasons it's going to fail is that multi strand wire is flexible because the many small conductors slide over each other when you bend it, but once you saturate the wire in solder and let it cool, it becomes one solid piece of conductor which is not the least bit flexible. Any sort of repetitive movement will eventually break the soldered piece of wire off the flexibel non soldered part, where the two meet. I've seen this MANY MANY times. A good Crimped connection is much better, and, if done correctly, will be as good as an un joined piece of wire.

2

There is no code book for Motorcycle electrics (that I know Of). The Motor cycle application, along with just about any other moving piece of electrical equipment is exposed to conditions on a regular basis that a normal house will never see. Huge temperature fluctuations, moisture, vibration, to name just a few. On top of this the low voltage electrics used in cars and motorcycles, lulls people into thinking that it is "Safe and easy" and any one can do it. While it is certainly safe to those working on it because of the low voltage, the factor that comes into play is that coupled with the low voltage, comes increased current. (power = volts times Amps, 10% of the voltage means 10 TIMES the current for a given power demand). Now this current needs good solid conduction paths and all the fixes for these R/R problems and harness problems seem to stem around providing good solid, resistance free, connections at both the connectors and where the earthing is done to the frame.

SO... The point of this is that even the easy old "House wiring" application (and rules) is telling us that soldering is not a good way to go. So in the rugged world of motorcycle electrics, It most definitely will not work.

In short, listen to what Serenity is saying about electrics, He speaks bucketloads of sense.

Tom

[kaldek]

If you're gonna go through that trouble, just solder them! Or put in a VFRness to really fix the problem.

Serenity_VFR is dead right about crimping - it's the best way to go. I was even watching an old episode of "World's Toughest Fixes" on National Geographic the other day and they were repairing high voltage overhead wires on the Philly train network. They cut these 20mm copper cables and spliced a new one in using nothing more than a hollow copper tube crimped on using 700 pounds of crimping force.

I have just re-wired all of my new stator wires to the new regulator on my 2002 using crimped on butt connectors with heat-shrink covering the join. I'm now seriously considering the liquid electrical tape...if I can find any that is. Australia is a bit wierd sometimes - stuff you can find in Walmart in the USA you have to go digging for in speciality shops here.

Oh - and Ox-Gard is a conductive grease, whereas I believe dielectric grease is NOT.

[kaldek]

The problem must be elsewhere. The R/R is just a simple Diode rectifier with a basic ground-shunt voltage regulator circuit. My theory is that it is the ground path from the R/R that is the issue. If the ground is not good then the R/R is causing unbalanced transient circulating currents to travel back and forth through the primary yellow wires and the stator coils instead of being properly shunted to ground through the R/R. This is where the crazy amperage is just circulating and the 3-phase wave-forms are layering when they are filled with harmonic waveforms at multiples of the normal AC frequency of the stator coils. This causes HUGE circulating currents that add up instead of canceling themselves out like they would normally in a healthy regulated and rectified AC/DC bridge.

Serenity, this is probably THE most interesting thing I have read about the electrical problems on the VFR, ever. Aside from "the blue connector", there is very little attention paid to ground wires. We're all busy beefing up the positive wires and not thinking about our grounds.

It's difficult to trace the wiring on the 2002 VFR since it's all tightly wrapped in the harness, but the only heavy gauge ground wires I can *see* come off the regulator at the front of the bike and go through the wiring harness straight to the main grounding point under the fuel tank, near the battery. It's quite a long wiring run, unlike the '98-'01 models whose large ground wires are quite short, yet we see the same problems with the '98 and the '02.

If I splice in some more heavy gauge wires into the ground wires and connect these to the frame at the front of the bike, is that going to be a worse electrical path than the wires which run to the rear of the bike? The electrons in this situation would have to travel through the entire alloy frame to get back to the battery, so I'm interested what you think about that.

[Serenity_VFR]

The problem must be elsewhere. The R/R is just a simple Diode rectifier with a basic ground-shunt voltage regulator circuit. My theory is that it is the ground path from the R/R that is the issue. If the ground is not good then the R/R is causing unbalanced transient circulating currents to travel back and forth through the primary yellow wires and the stator coils instead of being properly shunted to ground through the R/R. This is where the crazy amperage is just circulating and the 3-phase wave-forms are layering when they are filled with harmonic waveforms at multiples of the normal AC frequency of the stator coils. This causes HUGE circulating currents that add up instead of canceling themselves out like they would normally in a healthy regulated and rectified AC/DC bridge.

Serenity, this is probably THE most interesting thing I have read about the electrical problems on the VFR, ever. Aside from "the blue connector", there is very little attention paid to ground wires. We're all busy beefing up the positive wires and not thinking about our grounds.

It's difficult to trace the wiring on the 2002 VFR since it's all tightly wrapped in the harness, but the only heavy gauge ground wires I can *see* come off the regulator at the front of the bike and go through the wiring harness straight to the main grounding point under the fuel tank, near the battery. It's quite a long wiring run, unlike the '98-'01 models whose large ground wires are quite short, yet we see the same problems with the '98 and the '02.

If I splice in some more heavy gauge wires into the ground wires and connect these to the frame at the front of the bike, is that going to be a worse electrical path than the wires which run to the rear of the bike? The electrons in this situation would have to travel through the entire alloy frame to get back to the battery, so I'm interested what you think about that.

I slit my harness open in the area by the battery and just rebuilt it by cleaning up all the weird ground paths and battery + wires (see my above picture. Then I just added another #10 ground to the frame because I didn't think it was good enough. Since I moved the R/R up to in front of the left radiator I bolted an aluminum plate to the location where the R/R used to be and used it as a ground buss to connect all my accessory grounds to after making sure it had a good ground to the frame. I know I probably have multiple ground paths now and in some cases it is not good to have what is called a "ground loop." As I suspected it hasn't caused any trouble and my R/R tests out fantastic now and runs nice and cool. I also replaced that cheesy 30A main fuseholder with a good Beefy MaxiFuse unit still fused at 30A. A much better holder and low-resistance compared to the crap one Honda put onto the top of the battery box.

I like to over-build stuff and I've got somewhat of a redneck electrician style.

[VFR Capt.Bob]

Well. yesterday I was seriously thinking I might be done with a bike that continues to be plagued with electrical issues. Now I'm seeing a new project in upgrading the wiring cheaply and making the bike more user friendly by adding some accessory outlets for a heated vest, GPS etc. while making it more dependable. Next thing you know I'll be repainting the tortured body panels and lightly dented tank like Miguel.

[SEBSPEED]

If you really want to solder a wire the easiest way to do it is to get some plumbing flux and just dip the wire into it and then roll it around a little bit under your finger to get the flux under all the strands. Then when you touch the solder to the wires it just flows in. Without the flux the solder beads off and drips away and you don't get a good connection (cold solder joint).

IMHO it's harder to get a good solder joint that won't melt or crack under vibration than it is to get a good crimp -especially if you use anti-ox grease which makes it even easier as the grease lubricates the strands and helps the connector barrel push it aside and deform it properly so it doesn't wiggle. It's like the difference between trying to tighten a nice lubed nut on a bolt over one that is dry and rusty. Plus the grease ensures a good electrical connection as well as a good mechanical one.

You don't want the solder to wick into the wire too much, this lengthens the solder joint and does make it more brittle. I use flux core wire which works great for 12-22ga wire. As with any learned skill, practice makes better if not perfect, and I've seen some garbage crimp jobs too. I'd agree to disagree/you do your thing - I'll do mine on this because you're obviously experienced with crimping wires, and I'm confident in my soldering skills. I've been soldering for about 18 years, from wiring r/c cars(lots of heat & vibration), to scratch building tube frame models using brass tube & solder, household plumbing, and plenty of motorcycle installs & fixes. Haven't had a solder joint fail yet.

I'm coming out to bat for Senerity_VFR here.

What he is saying is absolutely true, proven time and time over in almost any industrial installation. (I got over 30 years experience in that)

1

There are many ways to solder wrongly, and only one way to solder correctly. Most people that have not learned soldering at trade level suck at it. Even if it is soldered correctly, if the joint is subject to heat expansion cycles or mechanical movement, It's going to fail. One of the reasons it's going to fail is that multi strand wire is flexible because the many small conductors slide over each other when you bend it, but once you saturate the wire in solder and let it cool, it becomes one solid piece of conductor which is not the least bit flexible. Any sort of repetitive movement will eventually break the soldered piece of wire off the flexibel non soldered part, where the two meet. I've seen this MANY MANY times. A good Crimped connection is much better, and, if done correctly, will be as good as an un joined piece of wire.

2

There is no code book for Motorcycle electrics (that I know Of). The Motor cycle application, along with just about any other moving piece of electrical equipment is exposed to conditions on a regular basis that a normal house will never see. Huge temperature fluctuations, moisture, vibration, to name just a few. On top of this the low voltage electrics used in cars and motorcycles, lulls people into thinking that it is "Safe and easy" and any one can do it. While it is certainly safe to those working on it because of the low voltage, the factor that comes into play is that coupled with the low voltage, comes increased current. (power = volts times Amps, 10% of the voltage means 10 TIMES the current for a given power demand). Now this current needs good solid conduction paths and all the fixes for these R/R problems and harness problems seem to stem around providing good solid, resistance free, connections at both the connectors and where the earthing is done to the frame.

SO... The point of this is that even the easy old "House wiring" application (and rules) is telling us that soldering is not a good way to go. So in the rugged world of motorcycle electrics, It most definitely will not work.

In short, listen to what Serenity is saying about electrics, He speaks bucketloads of sense.

Tom

1 - there are at least two ways to solder correctly, first with an iron, and also with a mini torch. I also disagree on the second statement, as there are plenty of experienced hobbyists that learn on their own and make beautiful joints. Open up one of your switch gear housings and tell me if you see moving parts and if there's solder or crimps. Then ask yourself how many temperature fluctuations, vibrations, and movement those switches undergo while rarely failing. Matter of fact, I've never heard of a solder joint in there failing - they get dirty or break a spring first. Granted, they don't pass much power.

2 - That was my point, there isn't one. :fing02: If you want to talk about conduction, that's why I said "Prove it" earlier. Resistance in a circuit and joint longevity are two separate topics; creating a proper solder joint will have less resistance to passing electrons than a crimp connection. When you add to that the fact that a decent 100w soldering iron can be had at any hardware store for $30-40, and that a real ratcheting crimp tool costs about $200, what's the weekend wrench to choose?

edit - This:

SO... The point of this is that even the easy old "House wiring" application (and rules) is telling us that soldering is not a good way to go. So in the rugged world of motorcycle electrics, It most definitely will not work.

Saying that soldering a connection on a bike definitely will not work is just asinine and shows that you've never done it before; WTH?

[SEBSPEED]

As long as the solder joint is made properly, is not abnormally overloaded(due to bad ground or overloaded circuit), is weather sealed, and is not subject to undue stress*, it will outlast the bike.

*crimped connections would be subject to this as well; flexing directly at the connection will weaken the wire strands.

I don't see how any of those requirements would be different for a crimped connection, doing work neatly and properly is a skill on its own IMO.

So, I still say to the original poster, if you practice your soldering, you can make three solder joints on your wires to bypass the connector. Seal the connections and secure them to a stationary part of the bike. Then figure out why the wires were overloaded in the first place.

[Sabredood]

Well I must say this has been quite an interesting thread to read. For now, I'm leaving the crimped connectors on. It will be easy enough to check on them over the summer and see if they're "behaving".

I'm starting the chain tomorrow, just got the tool from a friend. Once that's done, I'll go on the hunt for any other bad connections, ESPECIALLY grounds! I suspect Serenity is on to something about the grounds as there seem to be lot of electrical problems occurring, especially with the older bikes and I don't recall seeing much advice about checking ground connections when these occur.

This winter, I may get ambitious and make some of the mods that Serenity has done, but for now I just want to make sure that the stock connections and grounds are rock solid.

Thanks everyone!