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5th Gen Engine Modifications


sa1713

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A couple of weeks ago a lister posed an interesting idea: What could be done to an engine?

I posted in that thread but received much feedback asking to start a new thread. So, here it is.

I myself am smack dab in the middle of such an engine project. About 3 years ago my brother dropped of an XT500 single cyl 4 stroke engine off at an engine dude's shop in Cali. They went round and round on the best app for the motor and finally came to the conclusion that bigger is not always better. My brother had the elusive big BIG bore kit and all the trimmings. The builder advised him against it as the torque was sooo much that it would twist the engine right out of its mounts. Instead they settled on a bunch of efficiency mods including Porsche tappits, Carrillo rod/Wisco piston, port/polish, and then he welded the head. In all the mods will produce 77hp up from OEM of 53.

So enough with that story. But listening to him describe his experience got me thinking. What would an efficiency job produce out of a 5th gen motor? So I was able to snag a very low miliage motor from a wreck and drop it off to him.

In my initial conversation with him we kicked some ideas around, all of them centering on efficiency/rotational weight and such. I told him all ideas were in play including Carrillo/JE combos, crank work, and anything that would reduce the weight and send the efficiency out the back. He said he'd take a look and let me know the best course of action.

During this conversation I discovered he worked in Europe during the late 80's as a builder/tuner on race RC30's. He also worked for MegaCycle Cams and then went on to tell me about the horror stories of the early Honda V4 cams he would have to fix. He confirmed what has been discussed here on VFRD about Honda's problems with those cams wearing out. He fixed too many to count, but knew that their failure was due to poor mfg/materials, not as much oiling.

Well, I'm about to jump out of my shorts after he revealed that info and I felt much better about the upcoming process.

About 4 weeks ago we spoke again and he handed me some mixed news. As far as my big plan to swap pistons/rods and work the crank, not so fast. He said that Honda already did all that work for us and that he could install the new bits, but for the money, no one would even notice the difference between stock and aftermarket. Boy was I surprised to hear that. I was expecting a "yeah, I did that and here it is." He said Honda built it very well.

He described the motor as running very rich as there was quite a bit of carbon build up. He also said that 1 of the 4 cams was already hosed. No other parts showed any wear. He chalked the wear up to a bad part(he took pics so when I get them, you'll all get them). All the other cams were perfect. He did say that the motor did not have many miles on it which is what I know to be about 3-4k miles.

So, he is headlong into porting/polishing and yes, welding the head shut increasing the compression. He may coat the cams for longevity. He commented that Honda loves to F up the ports by angling them off center which makes for a less efficient exit and a bit more difficult to port. No big deal to do, just an observation. He understand why they do it that way but knows it is not the best for efficiency.

I've told him about the PC V. He is very interested in the PC V and how it can maximize performance.

We talked about the oil pump and he said it was fine, but he did make an intersting remark about the cooler. He said that the cooler is installed upside down. Since it is not under great pressure and the oil flows into it from the bottom, the top row(s) are useless. He said that most mfg'rs do this and he does not know why. So I looked at my 86 project and that cooler feeds from the top, but subsequent gens feed from the bottom.

I have the complete plumbing from a 6th gen ready for mod onto this motor and I will invert the cooler so that the oil feeds from the top, drops down and uses all of the rows. He thought this to be a good improvement and actually uses the cooler for what it was designed to do.

Well, more as I get it along with pics. I expect the motor to be finished within the next month or two and then I'll have it shipped back to me. By then I should have all of the installation questions for the PC V worked out and oil cooler mod completed.

Yes, pictures as I get them.

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Thanks for the write-up, sounds like this guy really knows what he's doing with the motor.

Looking forward to hearing about the results! :fing02:

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ps get some pics in here before I have to Ban you! wink.gif

Nothing like a bit of peer pressure....

Here is the donor. Nothing special except it is a 49 state'r and is pretty clean. Might have a pilot assisted touch down on the clutch side but nothing that can't be worked.

Engine Builder Dude (EBD) installed a Factory Pro Shift Star EVO kit on Wednesday. He had a bunch of comments about OEM shift linkage (all crappy) but agreed that this kit is a great addition.

While he was there, he took a look at the water pump. Once opened, he saw he could improve it by moving the impellors closer together, thus being more efficient and able to push more water through the system. He's also going to inspect the complete plumbing system to see if any other improvements can be made (ie with 2 side mount rads, series v. parallel).

More as I get it.

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While he was there, he took a look at the water pump. Once opened, he saw he could improve it by moving the impellors closer together, thus being more efficient and able to push more water through the system. He's also going to inspect the complete plumbing system to see if any other improvements can be made (ie with 2 side mount rads, series v. parallel).

I have one of these:

http://www.daviescraig.com.au/Electric_Water_Pumps-EWP80__12V__ELECTRIC_WATER_PUMP___PART_No__8005-details.aspx

5652-0.jpg

An electric waterpump means the mech drive is no longer required, and saves some power (it all adds up). Also you can set it up to run on when you switch the motor off, which eliminates heat soak.

When funds permit I'll get the digital controller for it:

a_EWP_Digital_Controller_web02.jpg

Not cheap, but neither are engine mods, or repair of engine failure... I definitely plan to get more power out of my engine at some point, this is the first step towards that.

Good luck with the project, I'm looking forward to following it!

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So am I correct in believing that simply flipping the oil cooler over will up its function and help keep the engine a few ticks cooler? Anything I can do to keep that motor turning for a bajillion more miles :goofy:

I've always wanted to go through a 5th gen motor the way you are! so sweet!!

Installing a 6th gen cooler will add an extra row of capacity! :fing02:

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So am I correct in believing that simply flipping the oil cooler over will up its function and help keep the engine a few ticks cooler? Anything I can do to keep that motor turning for a bajillion more miles :goofy:

I've always wanted to go through a 5th gen motor the way you are! so sweet!!

Installing a 6th gen cooler will add an extra row of capacity! :fing02:

And, in the conventional position, an extra row for oil to sit & collect in? :goofy:

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Installing a 6th gen cooler will add an extra row of capacity! :fing02:

And, in the conventional position, an extra row for oil to sit & collect in? :beer:

HAHAHAHA Seb, sometimes you just pull the words right from me.

Bailey, thanks for the tip, seriously, I didn't know they upgraded the coolers on the Vtecs.

But is getting more cooling out of the cooler simply a matter of flipping it 180 degrees?

Edited by 2fast2young
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5652-0.jpg

An electric waterpump means the mech drive is no longer required, and saves some power (it all adds up). Also you can set it up to run on when you switch the motor off, which eliminates heat soak.

Saves power? Doesn't that power get absorbed by the motor yet again driving the stator to power the electric water pump? I could see if that microcontroller turned it off and on by demand?

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5652-0.jpg

An electric waterpump means the mech drive is no longer required, and saves some power (it all adds up). Also you can set it up to run on when you switch the motor off, which eliminates heat soak.

Saves power? Doesn't that power get absorbed by the motor yet again driving the stator to power the electric water pump? I could see if that microcontroller turned it off and on by demand?

Kinda; the stator generates power all the time whether it's used or not. If not used, it gets dumped as heat by the Regulator. If your stator is powerful enough to run an electric water pump, I'd imagine it's doing nothing more than helping avoid generating waste heat.

In short, I'm pretty sure the mechanical effort to turn the stator doesn't increase with the power being asked of it. The energy drain from the electric water pump at idle would probably be the biggest problem. Possibly the voltage could drop so low that the bike stalled. Oddly enough, switching off the pump here would be a bad thing because sitting at the lights on a hot day is when you really really need your water pump to be cranking!

Interesting video on electric pumps here:

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Yep the digital controller will not only turn it on and off, but will run it at the appropriate speed for the cooling requirements at the time.

The stator is not going to add any real resistance to the rotating force of the crank. But pull your waterpump out and spin it by hand, there's resistance - then think about it having to push x volume of water through itself and around the engine at y rpm, the output shaft that drives it has to work pretty hard. It's also spinning madly when you're belting along at a brisk pace, which is when it should be backing off and letting the radiator do the work instead - the EWP (with controller) fixes that problem too.

Not cheap, but there's no cheap power increases on a VFR smile.gif

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Guest gearhead82

Yep the digital controller will not only turn it on and off, but will run it at the appropriate speed for the cooling requirements at the time.

The stator is not going to add any real resistance to the rotating force of the crank. But pull your waterpump out and spin it by hand, there's resistance - then think about it having to push x volume of water through itself and around the engine at y rpm, the output shaft that drives it has to work pretty hard. It's also spinning madly when you're belting along at a brisk pace, which is when it should be backing off and letting the radiator do the work instead - the EWP (with controller) fixes that problem too.

Not cheap, but there's no cheap power increases on a VFR smile.gif

Actually, the increased need for electric current to run the electric water pump WILL add resistance to the rotor/stator. Think of an gas powered generator that you might used if your power goes out. If you plug in a big appliance, it puts a noticeable load on the engine. There's no free power. So lets say that electric water pump is a 1hp electric motor, then it will take 1hp (plus probably ~10% efficiency loss) extra power to spin the rotor to make the current for it. I think the advantage to these electric water pumps is the consistency. The mechanical pump in the engine gets really inefficient and sucks a lot of power away from the engine at higher RPM.

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I'm liking the discussion fellas. I could be totally wrong on this, but comparing the electric water pump's power usage on the VFR to a generator is not similar, as there is a battery involved. The stator is just there to replenish the battery, which is powering everything, whereas a generator simply makes electricity directly. I don't know what the generator does with the surplus energy (earthed?) but I'm pretty sure it's a slightly different system. Therefore there shouldn't be a noticable load on the stator, just the battery.

Kaldek raises an important issue about sitting at the lights idling when you need the pump working its best. Hence once fitted you may need to vary the idle in order to meet the pumps drain on the battery and ensure the stator is up to the task without having to adjust too high an idle rpm. Does the pump give any specs to power usage?

I think if the pump runs at a set rpm all the time you could set it up fairly easily, depending if the stator is up to the job of keeping the battery at a nice level. Phantom, why would you want the pump to switch off? Radiators work at higher speeds, but if coolant isn't flowing it seems odd to want to shut it off. Also, is it possible to control the engine rpms (with the controller) if the pump has variable speeds? (like aircon)

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Actually, the increased need for electric current to run the electric water pump WILL add resistance to the rotor/stator. Think of an gas powered generator that you might used if your power goes out. If you plug in a big appliance, it puts a noticeable load on the engine. There's no free power. So lets say that electric water pump is a 1hp electric motor, then it will take 1hp (plus probably ~10% efficiency loss) extra power to spin the rotor to make the current for it. I think the advantage to these electric water pumps is the consistency. The mechanical pump in the engine gets really inefficient and sucks a lot of power away from the engine at higher RPM.

But you missed the part where Kaldek mentioned that the Stator is putting out full juice all of the time, and the excess juice is bled to atmosphere as heat by the stator depending on whether the battery is satisfied or not.

Ever perform a stator voltage test with a voltmeter, disconnecting the stator from the R/R and checking the voltage on all 3 legs? It's full juice all the time if the stator is good.

What is it, 470-500watts or so? And 50 some volts? (fishing from memory here)

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1:21 to 1:35 Of the video they mention that the electric pump that they had designed for the Prius produces about 2% fuel efficiency compared to mechanical one.

I see several pros and cons here.

Pros:

- about 2% more mileage/power

- works only when needed - may help top end

Cons:

- $$$

- Packaging

- weight???

- potential point of failure as it may not be as reliable as mechanical one.

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Kaldek raises an important issue about sitting at the lights idling when you need the pump working its best. Hence once fitted you may need to vary the idle in order to meet the pumps drain on the battery and ensure the stator is up to the task without having to adjust too high an idle rpm. Does the pump give any specs to power usage?

No you don't need to change the idle, the drain is negligible.

Operating voltage is 4v DC to 14.5v DC. Max current draw is 7.5amps.

The digital controller pulls a few amps too (up to 12 max) but it also controls the radiator fan and can switch it on and off as required, as well as switch the waterpump on/off and vary the speed.

http://www.daviescra...05-details.aspx

I've used my pump on my VT Berlina (3.8litre V6) while I waited for a replacement waterpump - the kit comes with adaptors for a few different hose sizes and I just had to buy a few generic bits of radiator hose to make it work - and while the EWP115 would probably be a better long term bet from an efficiency point of view, the little EWP80 kept it at normal operating temps, and this was at the start of a Queensland summer.

VFRD member Vfroem is running an electric pump on his 140+hp big bore 3rd Gen, seems to be having no problems with it. His is a Mercedes pump, don't know what vehicle though.

I think if the pump runs at a set rpm all the time you could set it up fairly easily, depending if the stator is up to the job of keeping the battery at a nice level. Phantom, why would you want the pump to switch off? Radiators work at higher speeds, but if coolant isn't flowing it seems odd to want to shut it off. Also, is it possible to control the engine rpms (with the controller) if the pump has variable speeds? (like aircon)

Not switch it off altogether - just slow it down so it's performing at max efficiency. The OEM waterpump is hurling the water around inside the block at the fastest rate just when it's not (generally) necessary).

The pump runs at its max speed without a controller; not the ideal option of course, but fine if you were running at the track or had a motor that tended to run hot. I have the thermal switch that will turn it on and off to maintain a set temperature, but as mentioned when I feel ready to part with $200 (ouch) I plan to buy the digital controller which will just vary the impellor speed as required.

With the digital controller, you throw away the thermostat, and the controller varies the voltage to maintain optimum flow and therefore temp, the radiator fan is also on call when needed. I had planned to fit twin 5" R6 fans that I bought, but their combined weight is a bit more than the OEM fan and I don't need that extra efficiency with this pump.

Speaking of weight - Rice, the pump weighs 900g and the digital controller weighs 90g... I suspect that the OEM waterpump might actually weigh less than this, will try to weigh it (if I can find it...)

To answer your other points - it's the same size as the OEM pump and fits perfectly in the OEM location; I am thinking of putting it above the stator cover though, so I can ditch that heavy metal waterpipe that runs down below the stator cover. Will have to see if there's room once my bodywork is done. They seem to be pretty reliable and the latest version has a "SiC x carbon mechanical face seal for added reliability". I'm guessing that 50000km is possible especially given that it will be off or running at low rpms a lot of the time, and on a little 750 it won't need to work nearly as hard as on a bigger motor - its designed to be able to cool engines of up to 5 litres so it will be understressed on the VFR. Except at the track smile.gif Davies-Craig has been supplying thermofans and other products to the Australian (and o/s) auto industry for 40 years, their quality is excellent.

Cost, well there's not much you can do about that. It's top shelf quality and low volume production. Again, VFR power doesn't come cheap, and unless you go big bore or blown, your only option is a series of small mods that will add up to more power and if you're lucky less weight. For me - EWP, cam scissor gears removed (makes it horribly noisy though), full headers, EGR system modded to reduce crankcase pressure, K&N - so far. Head and cam work is planned. I'm hoping for 115-120hp and faster throttle response, to go with my 20kg or so weight reduction.

This tangent is getting pretty big for Sa1713's engine mod topic :goofy: Might leave it at that, I'll post some pics when the final installation happens on my bike.

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I like it!

Was skeptical at first (as always) but I like it now.

It is definitely a better way of cooling the motor.

Someone with a Torocharger may want to consider this setup as well methinks.

Phantom,

Since you are determined to go the distance with the power theme, it may be a good idea to keep records of fuel mileage and possibly even dino results (if funds allow) before each mod.

I would be very interested to know how much HP does mechanical pump require to turn.

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I'm liking the discussion fellas. I could be totally wrong on this, but comparing the electric water pump's power usage on the VFR to a generator is not similar, as there is a battery involved. The stator is just there to replenish the battery, which is powering everything, whereas a generator simply makes electricity directly. I don't know what the generator does with the surplus energy (earthed?) but I'm pretty sure it's a slightly different system. Therefore there shouldn't be a noticable load on the stator, just the battery.

It doesn't matter whether that current is going to replenish the battery, or going to power the water pump directly. It's the same. If you're pulling the amps directly from the battery, then the rotor/stator is having to replenish the battery at the same rate that the juice is being drained.

Actually, the increased need for electric current to run the electric water pump WILL add resistance to the rotor/stator. Think of an gas powered generator that you might used if your power goes out. If you plug in a big appliance, it puts a noticeable load on the engine. There's no free power. So lets say that electric water pump is a 1hp electric motor, then it will take 1hp (plus probably ~10% efficiency loss) extra power to spin the rotor to make the current for it. I think the advantage to these electric water pumps is the consistency. The mechanical pump in the engine gets really inefficient and sucks a lot of power away from the engine at higher RPM.

But you missed the part where Kaldek mentioned that the Stator is putting out full juice all of the time, and the excess juice is bled to atmosphere as heat by the stator depending on whether the battery is satisfied or not.

Ever perform a stator voltage test with a voltmeter, disconnecting the stator from the R/R and checking the voltage on all 3 legs? It's full juice all the time if the stator is good.

What is it, 470-500watts or so? And 50 some volts? (fishing from memory here)

I don't think the stator is putting out "full juice" all the time. All the outlets in your house have 120V at all times, but that doesn't mean all the power that the power company generates is being used by your unused outlets. You'd have a 7 figure power bill! Watts (power) is determined by voltage and amperage. Think of a water pipe. You can have all that water under pressure (voltage) sitting and waiting in your pipes, but that doesn't mean your using any water. When you turn on the faucet, water starts to flow (the equivalent of turning on the headlights or electric water pump on your bike), then all of the sudden you're using water (amps). The size of the sprinkler attached to the faucet will determine how much water is used.

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I don't think the stator is putting out "full juice" all the time. All the outlets in your house have 120V at all times, but that doesn't mean all the power that the power company generates is being used by your unused outlets. You'd have a 7 figure power bill! Watts (power) is determined by voltage and amperage. Think of a water pipe. You can have all that water under pressure (voltage) sitting and waiting in your pipes, but that doesn't mean your using any water. When you turn on the faucet, water starts to flow (the equivalent of turning on the headlights or electric water pump on your bike), then all of the sudden you're using water (amps). The size of the sprinkler attached to the faucet will determine how much water is used.

Right, but a well pump only gives water pressure when it's called for - through your retention tank(battery)by way of opening a faucet.

On your bike, the crank is always spinning the stator, and therefore requires the r/r for "overflow". To relate this to your water pipe example, the well pump would run constantly, and you would have an overflow valve dumping water whether the faucet was open or not.

(I think) The stator is designed to put out the minimum power the bike needs to run, at idle. Everything above that goes to the battery, and out to the R/R as waste.

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I don't think the stator is putting out "full juice" all the time. All the outlets in your house have 120V at all times, but that doesn't mean all the power that the power company generates is being used by your unused outlets. You'd have a 7 figure power bill! Watts (power) is determined by voltage and amperage. Think of a water pipe. You can have all that water under pressure (voltage) sitting and waiting in your pipes, but that doesn't mean your using any water. When you turn on the faucet, water starts to flow (the equivalent of turning on the headlights or electric water pump on your bike), then all of the sudden you're using water (amps). The size of the sprinkler attached to the faucet will determine how much water is used.

Yep the stator generates as much AC current as it can for whatever rpms it's turning. The regulator/rectifier does the next bit - 'rectifies' the voltage from AC to DC, and regulates how much of that current gets through to the battery - and then simply dumps the excess current as heat. The regulator function also doubles up by making sure the voltage into the battery/electrical system is maintained at a steady voltage.

Any electrical function you add (such as a GPS, or heated grips, or an electic waterpump) will simply siphon off some of that excess voltage, meaning less work (and longer life) for the regulator function. You can suck a fair bit out before you start to have problems, which typically begin with an undercharging battery. But the stator doesn't really notice any of this as it spins away doing its thing.

AC, as in the home example, is totally different in its behaviour and doesn't need to 'sink' excess current like a variable current DC system does.

I'd like to swap to a smaller diameter stator to reduce rotating mass, will look into that down the track. My bike won't ever run the typical S/T power loads; a GPS and the EWP are about it (and all of my rear lights and front indicators are LED which saves some current) so I could easily get away with reducing voltage output.

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I don't think the stator is putting out "full juice" all the time. All the outlets in your house have 120V at all times, but that doesn't mean all the power that the power company generates is being used by your unused outlets. You'd have a 7 figure power bill! Watts (power) is determined by voltage and amperage. Think of a water pipe. You can have all that water under pressure (voltage) sitting and waiting in your pipes, but that doesn't mean your using any water. When you turn on the faucet, water starts to flow (the equivalent of turning on the headlights or electric water pump on your bike), then all of the sudden you're using water (amps). The size of the sprinkler attached to the faucet will determine how much water is used.

Yep the stator generates as much AC current as it can for whatever rpms it's turning. The regulator/rectifier does the next bit - 'rectifies' the voltage from AC to DC, and regulates how much of that current gets through to the battery - and then simply dumps the excess current as heat. The regulator function also doubles up by making sure the voltage into the battery/electrical system is maintained at a steady voltage.

Any electrical function you add (such as a GPS, or heated grips, or an electic waterpump) will simply siphon off some of that excess voltage, meaning less work (and longer life) for the regulator function. You can suck a fair bit out before you start to have problems, which typically begin with an undercharging battery. But the stator doesn't really notice any of this as it spins away doing its thing.

AC, as in the home example, is totally different in its behaviour and doesn't need to 'sink' excess current like a variable current DC system does.

I'd like to swap to a smaller diameter stator to reduce rotating mass, will look into that down the track. My bike won't ever run the typical S/T power loads; a GPS and the EWP are about it (and all of my rear lights and front indicators are LED which saves some current) so I could easily get away with reducing voltage output.

Good info!

Also, I haven't researched it for the VFR, but while looking for a replacement flywheel/rotor for my old EX500, I came across a company who will machine/lighten the OEM one. I can't remember the name of the company though.

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(I think) The stator is designed to put out the minimum power the bike needs to run, at idle. Everything above that goes to the battery, and out to the R/R as waste.

Off topic, but I wonder about this myself, I know many older Hondas would actually drain the battery at a low idle. I suppose I could hook up a voltmeter at various RPM's and find out. Anyone in warmer weather want to do this? Find out at what point the bike is charging (and of course it would vary from bike to bike).

But anyway, Yes, the R/R is always using up the excess voltage, so I think the amperage draw would be negligible and this is a good mod, way too pricey for me, but it at least seems like a good idea.

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It's way too pricey for me too :rolleyes: , I guess it was one of those "what the hell, let's do it" moments... down the track it's possible that I'll switch back to the stock pump, and fit the EWP to my '69 VW Kombi when I drop a water-cooled Subaru motor into it...

Rice asked for before/after info on any gains, that's not possible on my bike but if I can, I'll fit it to my wife's stock 4th Gen at some point and see what we get.

Here's some VFR voltage figures we prepared earlier - the at-rest voltage on a good battery is around 12.8v, and at idle it's around 13.5v so it's producing enough at idle to top the battery up.

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