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Hossackviffer Mkii


redmarque

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Girvin-Vector2.jpg

Nice girder fork! Reminds me of the Vincent Rapide and Black Shadow. There's a R1 somewhere on the net with a setup like that but fork legs are machined from billet Ali.

1947_Vincent_Rapide.jpg

Enjoying Build II, Red, although I still can't believe that Build I is already done, dusted and consigned to the scrapheap! :dry:

Believe me after all the time and effort I put into Mk1 it was a big decision to start again; I couldn't bare to look at the errors and compromises in the chassis design anymore... I've taken it as a great learning experience :biggrin:

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Believe me after all the time and effort I put into Mk1 it was a big decision to start again; I couldn't bare to look at the errors and compromises in the chassis design anymore... I've taken it as a great learning experience :biggrin:

Big kudos to you for that!!

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I had a expert looking over my shoulder when I ran the test bead. He said "There, you got it" and walked away. That when I started having problems. No worries, I lack this little thing called 'talent' anyway. Another reason I'm so impressed with what Redmarque can do!

I don't think you lack 'talent' I've been looking at the yokes and stuff on your website! :biggrin: :dry:

I think what makes Aluminium different to weld is it's ability to disipate heat and it's lower melting point than steel.

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I don't think you lack 'talent' I've been looking at the yokes and stuff on your website! :wheel: :blush:

Thanks man, I really appreciate that!

Back on topic: any idea of how much money you will have invested in this project? I'm sure there is a lot of time too, but sometimes that's more difficult to determine. I think trying to quanitfy some numbers would help others gain a better appreciation for exactly what you are doing here.

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That is a very old Vincent with ordinary girder forks.

Vincent-Comet-52.jpg

I had a Vincent Comet like this. Those are 'Girdraulic' forks. The fork blade is a big aluminium forging with the springs in the narrow tube behind.

The Whyte forks are very interesting because they don't have the scissors linkage. The top link is like a standard girder fork - the top link is steered by the handlebars. The lower link is like a Hossack. The suspension forces will be carried by the lower link so those loads will not go through the steering bearings. The brake loads will not go through the shock so there will be little front end dive (depends on angle of the pivot points). Would it not be simpler to do it like Whyte?

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Back on topic: any idea of how much money you will have invested in this project? I'm sure there is a lot of time too, but sometimes that's more difficult to determine. I think trying to quanitfy some numbers would help others gain a better appreciation for exactly what you are doing here.

OK, I might shock myself having to add up the rough build costs.

20k mile 5th Gen Engine, throttle bodies,loom, clutch master cylinder: £300

ECU: £30

Coils: £14

6th Gen Tank & fuel pump: £40

Airbox: £25

R1 brake calipers £80

R1 radial master: £80

SS Swingarm/rear wheel £150

CBR600F4 front wheel £80

Braking wavy front disks: £150

Braking wavy rear: £75

Tyres: £200

Front axle £20

rear swingarm axle: £20

5th gen seat: £20

CBR 1000F oil cooler £12

footpeg hangers:£25

Ducati 916 radiator: £15

Earl's Stainless brake/clutch line connectors/Oil cooler lines and ends: £300

Silicon hoses and stainless clips: £100

Stainless bolts:?

Steel and tubing £150

CNC milled parts on Mk1 including materials: £1750

Welding: £750

obviously there are other incidental parts/cost not included here!

For me the good thing was not having to payout for everything at once. (spreads the cost of having a bike unlike anything else!)

and OK I could have gone out a bought a bike secondhand, but it wouldn't have been a challenge/hobby/sanity keeper.

When I originally started my goal was to build my 'own' bike; also I wanted to see what these 'funny front ends' are like to ride and a hossack system 'seemed' the simplest to build.

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That total really doesn't look too bad. The CNC parts are the biggest chunk, which I can respect. What impresses me the most is the dedication of time that it takes to think out, try, revise, try again, etc. a project like this.

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Guest FactoryRC46

Thanks RC Some how I thought you'd know him. afterall you knew his work email address!

Yes i've done a bit of research on him and looked at quite a few of his designs. For the others reading this thread might be interested in seeing the MOD bike and his BMW conversion on youtube:

Hossack on youtube

Also the Whyte Mountain bike PRST series which I think is based on his ideas:

2002_Whyte_PRST.jpg

I found it a real shame that BMW stuffed him over with regards to his patents, but that's big corporations for you... :biggrin:

The BMW 'Duolever' design doesn't do his system justice either. most test riders say it's 'numb'

I'd be honoured to have Norman's input or whatever he can spare, or if he's fedup/had enough then will undersand.

I'll message you my details in a min.

Many thanks, Red.

Hello Red,

Looking at the youtube link of Norman, there is no need to attach a photo - that same BMW is his current daily ride. I spoke with him on Tuesday and he agreed to being in touch with you. Not sure if he wants his work email used moving forward but use it to start - he's not part of the VFR Discussion.

-Chris

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Hello Red,

Looking at the youtube link of Norman, there is no need to attach a photo - that same BMW is his current daily ride. I spoke with him on Tuesday and he agreed to being in touch with you. Not sure if he wants his work email used moving forward but use it to start - he's not part of the VFR Discussion.

-Chris

Many thanks for suggesting contact with Norman and approaching him on my behalf for some input.

- I'll put together an introductory email to him tomorrow.

Once again, I really apreciate your help.

Red

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killerv900.jpg

Good lord, the trail on that MTB front end is nuts!!!

It is nothing out of the ordinary. The trail is the distance between the centerline of the steering axis & where the tire touches the ground. In this case the uprights of the suspension are unusually far forward so the wheel axle has to be moved well behind them to restore the conventional trail dimension.

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I went on Google to get you some info on seamless DOM tubing and found this...

Freshly plagiarized from a plagiarism on a 4x4 forum thread- (sorry for the length, but very informative!)

Steel Tubing

It is impossible to go into details about every type and shape and grade of steel product available or that we might be interested in. There are far too many, and availability will vary greatly depending on location and manufacturer/supplier.

That said, one of the most often used, most often asked about, and most often misunderstood products we use is the venerable round steel tubing.

Round steel tube is commonly available in a number of industry standard sizes. For an idea of the common industry sizes (inside diameter (ID), outside diameter (OD), and wall thickness) browse the supply catalogue of your local supplier or check the Pirate4x4.com tech database HERE and especially HERE.

Note that round steel mechanical tubing is NORMALLY ordered and supplied based on a specified OD and wall thickness. The ID is the result of these former 2 specs. There are however some exceptions to this - most notably in true seamless tubing.

Here are some Flashâ„¢ graphics of the different steel tube forming processes that I snagged from the excellent Steel Tube Institute of North America website.

Contnuous (butt welded) pipe process.

The continuous process produces a full range of pipe sizes from only a few different widths of skelp. The coils of skelp, or strip, are fed into the mill and their ends welded together to provide a continuous flow. The strip passes through a pre-heater and into a furnace. The heated strip is shaped into an arc of about 270° in a forming stand before passing into the welding stand. There a nozzle applies oxygen to the edges to further heat them as they are pressed and welded together. The pipe's OD and wall thickness are reduced in a stretch-reducing mill. Pipe is then cut to length, reduced to the required size in a sizing mill and water-cooled before being straightened. It is then ready for finishing

Typical Electric Resistance Welded tube process

Steel strip is unwound from coils and side-trimmed to control width and condition the edges for welding. The strip then passes through a series of contoured rolls which progressively cold-form it into a circular shape. The edges are forced together under pressure and welded by heating the steel to temperatures between 2200° F and 2600° F using copper contacts or coil induction. Weld flash is removed from the the inside and outside surfaces of the newly-formed pipe, and the weld zone is heat treated to ensure homogeneity between the base metal and weld. The weld is subjected to in-line nondestructive testing, and the tube then passes through a series of sizing rolls to attain its precise finished diameter. It is then straightened and cut to the desired finished length.

DOM tube being constructed, starting as ERW and then being drawn over a mandrel.

The manufacturing process for DOM tubing begins with coils of steel, which are slit to the proper width for the desired tube size. The strip is cold formed and passed through an electric resistance welder which joins the edges together, under pressure, to complete the tubular shape. After testing the weld's integrity, the tubing is cut to length for further processing

Seamless tube construction

The production process for seamless tube begins by heating a steel billet to about 2250° F. The red-hot billet is rotated and drawn by rolls over a piercing rod, or mandrel. The action of the rolls causes the metal to flow over and about the mandrel to create a hollow tube shell. After reheating, the shell is moved forward over a support bar and is hot-rolled in several reducing/sizing stands to the desired wall thickness and diameter. The tube, which has grown significantly in length during the piercing and sizing processes, is then cut into sections and conveyed across a cooling bed to cool slowly in the air. It then receives whatever finishing processes are needed to meet customer requirements.

Steel tubing is usually supplied in one of the following forms:

Seamless Tube.

This is expensive and specialized stuff. It IS NOT the commonly used (and misreferenced) DOM tubing, as DOM tubing does indeed have a seam (albeit, almost invisible - more details below). True seamless tubing is uncommon in 4x4 and automotive use. It is seamless because it is manufactured by a process know as "extrusion" where a solid bar of steel is pierced down the center with a die, at unthinkable pressures, to form a tube. The process looks similar to how hollow pasta (macaroni etc) is made. There are 2 sub-types of seamless tube:

Cold Drawn Seamless (CDS) Tube is normally drawn to O.D. and I.D. dimensions and produced to standard dimensional tolerances (this differs from most other types of tubing except DOM) . It is normally made from SAE 1018 and is considered good quality.

Hot Finished Seamless (HFS) Tube is lower in cost than cold drawn and most applicable where precise dimensions and surface quality are of secondary importance. It is manufactured to O.D. and wall dimensions from SAE 1026 steel and is scaly, less dependable and not as strong as cold drawn tube.

Electric Resistance Welded (ERW) Tube

ERW is the most economical and readily available type of mechanical tuning. It is produced by taking a flat bar of steel and rolling it into a tube shape (picture rolling up a newspaper - but without any overlap) and then welding the seam - by, you guessed it - electric resistance - hence the name. Electric resistance welding is somewhat like a long, continuous spot weld. It's often computer controlled and extremely consistent. ERW is normally SAE 1010 (for wall thickness < 16 ga) or SAE 1020. ERW tube comes in 2 flavours:

Hot Rolled ERW (HREW)

HREW is rolled into a tube at elevated temperatures, usually way above room temperature. This produces a tubing that is more malleable and therefore easier to form but that is also not as strong, is supplied covered with scale, and not as uniform in dimension as cold rolled. It is also quite a bit cheaper than cold rolled.

Cold Rolled ERW (CREW)

CREW is manufactured by a process in which a steel bar is rolled into a tube and the seam welded, usually at room temperature. Compared to hot rolled, CREW is stronger - (greater yield strength) - because of the improvement in the crystal lattice structure from improved grain size, shape, and orientation imparted by being worked at cold (room) temperatures), straighter, has a much smoother and more uniform surface finish, and is made to much tighter, more consistent dimensions. It is the best economical choice for tube work, and because of the better surface finish and tighter dimensional tolerances it is much nicer to work with than HREW.

Drawn Over Mandrel (DOM)

Strong and well-finished DOM is an electric resistance welded tube tested for soundness of weld and drawn through a die and over a mandrel. This process imparts significantly improved mechanical properties to the tube, due to the cold working process. It is considered a high quality tube, and is normally constructed from SAE 1020 or 1026 steel. Note that, technically DOM refers to the process by which the tube is finished after having started as an ERW tube. Technically, DOM is not a type of steel tube, but rather a process. As so often happen though - in common use the term has become accepted to mean a specific type of tubing rather than a process. In this case, when people say "DOM" they normally mean an ERW tube drawn over a mandrel at (close to) room temperature and made from SAE 1020 steel. It is normally drawn to O.D. and I.D. dimensions. Here is what the Steel Tube Institute of North America has to say about DOM:

The DOM Manufacturing Process

The manufacturing process for DOM tubing begins with coils of steel, which are slit to the proper width for the desired tube size. The strip is cold formed and passed through an electric resistance welder which joins the edges together, under pressure, to complete the tubular shape. After testing the weld's integrity, the tubing is cut to length for further processing.

The cold-drawing process creates a uniform, precision product with substantially improved tolerances, surface finish and tensile strength, increased hardness and good machinability. In this process, the tube is cleaned and annealed, and one end of each length is squeezed to a point so it can be gripped by the drawing mechanism. The tube is then drawn through one or more dies and over mandrels. This reduces the diameter of the tube and thins its walls to the required dimensions in a controlled fashion to provide the qualities desired in the finished product. Metallurgically, drawing improves the tube's concentricity, tensile strength, hardness and machinability. Close dimensional accuracy is achieved through tight control of both outside and inside diameters.[10]

Alloy Steel Tubing

Is not really a different type of tubing, as it will be manufactured by one of the above described methods, usually by extrusion, but from alloy steel instead of mild steel. It is generally available in either the normalized or the annealed condition. Commonly referred to as chrom-moly tube - it has very strict welding process and post-welding heat treatment and stress relieving requirements. It is my opinion that it can (should) only be TIG or Oxy-Acetylene welded, and then only if proper stress relieving will be done post welding. Sure people MIG weld it all the time, and you can safely do so - BUT - what you have in the end is a superior tube with an inferior weld joint which reduces the overall strength of whatever you fabricated to the weakest link (the weld in this case) and so you have a very expensive structure that is no better overall than one made from 1020 DOM.

Exact chemical content, heat treatment, physical properties, production method and therefore mechanical properties will vary from one supplier to the next, even for seemingly similarly named products - the wise fabricator double-checks all assumptions carefully before building anything. Different suppliers will also have available different products. For example, Ryerson-Tull, one of North America's largest suppliers list in their catalogue of steel tubing between 1" and 2' OD, the following types (not all available in all sizes):

CDS, HFS, DOM, ERW, and a proprietary product they call "Ry-Star 512 Extra".

Many suppliers will have such special proprietary products - you will have to check with your supplier for its proprietary product properties and specs.

One thing that has to be watched out for is that the industry bends a lot of carbon steel tubing to make lots of things and so most carbon steel tubing is available in the annealed condition—woe to him who does not detect it before he builds the part. I have a very good friend who once got an entire roll cage cut, bent, fitted and tacked before he realized that his merry men were working with annealed boiler tube. The other thing that we don't want is "free machining tubing." I currently use round carbon steel DOM mechanical tubing for most things other than suspension links (there I use E4130N and stress relieve and heat treat after welding). For roll cages I use either 4130 or DOM 1020. I do not want to know about hot-finished tubing because I do not want to clean it. I am old enough to remember the days when English ERW tubing was liable to split along the weld seam. As a matter of principle (or, possibly, stubbornness) I do not use ERW or butt welded tube on the race car; although, since it is a lot cheaper, I use it all over the trailer and the shop.[11]

My personal mantra on the subject of steel tubing choice for 4x4s and rock crawler's is:

"You can't go wrong with 1020 DOM!"

Coming from steel racing bicycles background from my college days, much was made of CrMo (by Reynolds, Columbus, Ishiwata, Tange, Vitus...etc) tubing for the best quality steel bicycle frames. Maganese steel alloys covering the middle part of the market and 1020 high carbon, high tensile, seamed steel tubing was the material expected for the cheapest "department store" bikes. I guess 1020 is certainly good enough when you are putting together frames or roll cages with many tubes that can help spread the loads, but the thinking in the bicycle frame builder's world was, you are depending on 3 main tubes for the bike frame's structure/stregnth plus you are trying to minimize weight as much as possible and compromises cannot be taken at the competition levels for safety and performance. I would think that a custom steel bicycle frame builder will cringe if he hears your mantra of "You can't go wrong with 1020 DOM!"

Doesn't Ducati also use CrMo seamless tubing for their bike frames, and shouldn't that be sort of the modern benchmark for building sportbike tube spaceframes if they do??

JMOs

Beck

95 VFR

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Coming from steel racing bicycles background from my college days, much was made of CrMo (by Reynolds, Columbus, Ishiwata, Tange, Vitus...etc) tubing for the best quality steel bicycle frames. Maganese steel alloys covering the middle part of the market and 1020 high carbon, high tensile, seamed steel tubing was the material expected for the cheapest "department store" bikes. I guess 1020 is certainly good enough when you are putting together frames or roll cages with many tubes that can help spread the loads, but the thinking in the bicycle frame builder's world was, you are depending on 3 main tubes for the bike frame's structure/stregnth plus you are trying to minimize weight as much as possible and compromises cannot be taken at the competition levels for safety and performance. I would think that a custom steel bicycle frame builder will cringe if he hears your mantra of "You can't go wrong with 1020 DOM!"

Doesn't Ducati also use CrMo seamless tubing for their bike frames, and shouldn't that be sort of the modern benchmark for building sportbike tube spaceframes if they do??

JMOs

Beck

95 VFR

Beck I agree with your opion on 1020 DOM tubing it's not suitable for motorcycle chassis.

ERW Electric resistance welded (seamed) and (DOM) Drawn Over Mandrel to increase it's tensile strength.

I believe that Ducati use 4130 for there production frames.

interesting facts:

Reynolds 753 tubing is heat treated 531!

531 Reynolds tubing was used on the legendary norton featherbed frames.

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Coming from steel racing bicycles background from my college days, much was made of CrMo (by Reynolds, Columbus, Ishiwata, Tange, Vitus...etc) tubing for the best quality steel bicycle frames. Maganese steel alloys covering the middle part of the market and 1020 high carbon, high tensile, seamed steel tubing was the material expected for the cheapest "department store" bikes. I guess 1020 is certainly good enough when you are putting together frames or roll cages with many tubes that can help spread the loads, but the thinking in the bicycle frame builder's world was, you are depending on 3 main tubes for the bike frame's structure/stregnth plus you are trying to minimize weight as much as possible and compromises cannot be taken at the competition levels for safety and performance. I would think that a custom steel bicycle frame builder will cringe if he hears your mantra of "You can't go wrong with 1020 DOM!"

Doesn't Ducati also use CrMo seamless tubing for their bike frames, and shouldn't that be sort of the modern benchmark for building sportbike tube spaceframes if they do??

JMOs

Beck

95 VFR

Beck I agree with your opion on 1020 DOM tubing it's not suitable for motorcycle chassis.

ERW Electric resistance welded (seamed) and (DOM) Drawn Over Mandrel to increase it's tensile strength.

I believe that Ducati use 4130 for there production frames.

interesting facts:

Reynolds 753 tubing is heat treated 531!

531 Reynolds tubing was used on the legendary norton featherbed frames.

Reynolds 531 tubing has had an illustrious history in sport and motorsport.

It was even used to build up the spaceframe on Richard Noble's Thrust SSC Land Speed record car in the 80's, which is a testament to how engineers trust the tubing's stregnth. Noble's LSR car wore the big "Reynolds TI" decal on it's nose with pride.

Another ineresting CrMo steel tubing brand is the French "Vitus". They actually came up with tubing even lighter than the much vaunted Reynolds 753 and 531SL tubing with their "Extra Legere Super Vitus 980" tubing. The tubing built up to bikes that challenges aluminum frames for lightness but still keeping the lively characteristics and stregnth of CrMo steel tubing.

Beck

95 VFR

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Been busy designing the fuel tank/airbox area.

mk2tank.jpg

The reasoning behind the flat surfaces is to avoid hand forming curved panels

Material will be 3mm 1050A Aluminium sheet.

Also raised the rear subframe - estimated seat height 820mm (i'm 6'2)

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Wow, you're fabricating a tank too!?!? You sure are a glutton!

Yep, with the new frame design a standard tank won't fit... I had thought of using a cbr600rr tank cover and chopping it, allowing for a simpler tank design underneath. What do you guys think?

I could still do with some suggestions re: the fairing and tail unit

How about one of these far eastern complete fairing kits in abs plastic or a cbr600rr race fairing?

if I bought one now, I could measure it up to make sure everything would fit inside?

Edited by redmarque
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Wow, you're fabricating a tank too!?!? You sure are a glutton!

Yep, with the new frame design a standard tank won't fit... I had thought of using a cbr600rr tank cover and chopping it, allowing for a simpler tank design underneath. What do you guys think?

I could still do with some suggestions re: the fairing and tail unit

How about one of these far eastern complete fairing kits in abs plastic or a cbr600rr race fairing?

if I bought one now, I could measure it up to make sure everything would fit inside?

1.5mm (.063") is all you need brother. If you want to include some contours, make a wooden buck and shape the 1.5mm ali over the buck.

The aluminum tank + cover idea is one that I have also spent time thinking about. The part I get hung up on, is that I like to hang off my bikes, and that means the tank has to support my weight at times. I would build the actual tank in a way that allows it to support the outer cover when I jam my knee against it and hang off into a turn.

Also, unless you're thinking that you want bodywork, I'm pretty sure that those companies will sell you the tank cover only. I was able to buy the Duc 1098 tail for my 86 project without too much trouble. It was especially cheap, because I had them send it unpainted! :blink:

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The aluminum tank + cover idea is one that I have also spent time thinking about. The part I get hung up on, is that I like to hang off my bikes, and that means the tank has to support my weight at times. I would build the actual tank in a way that allows it to support the outer cover when I jam my knee against it and hang off into a turn.

Also, unless you're thinking that you want bodywork, I'm pretty sure that those companies will sell you the tank cover only. I was able to buy the Duc 1098 tail for my 86 project without too much trouble. It was especially cheap, because I had them send it unpainted! :blink:

Thanks Seb,

I've just bought a cheap scuffed cbr600rr 06 tank cover to measure/cutup. Looks like it could save a bit of work fabricating a 'pretty' ali tank. As you say it would need to braced to allow for some chimpanzee action. +1.gif

cb6rrtankcover.jpg

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The aluminum tank + cover idea is one that I have also spent time thinking about. The part I get hung up on, is that I like to hang off my bikes, and that means the tank has to support my weight at times. I would build the actual tank in a way that allows it to support the outer cover when I jam my knee against it and hang off into a turn.

Also, unless you're thinking that you want bodywork, I'm pretty sure that those companies will sell you the tank cover only. I was able to buy the Duc 1098 tail for my 86 project without too much trouble. It was especially cheap, because I had them send it unpainted! :blink:

Thanks Seb,

I've just bought a cheap scuffed cbr600rr 06 tank cover to measure/cutup. Looks like it could save a bit of work fabricating a 'pretty' ali tank. As you say it would need to braced to allow for some chimpanzee action. +1.gif

cb6rrtankcover.jpg

I have an additional CBR 600RR Tank cover available if you want/need it. Free other than postage....

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I have an additional CBR 600RR Tank cover available if you want/need it. Free other than postage....

That's handy Doug! might take you up on that offer! Cheers! :blink:

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I have an additional CBR 600RR Tank cover available if you want/need it. Free other than postage....

That's handy Doug! might take you up on that offer! Cheers! :beer:

No prob!!! It has a tab or two missing, as I got it from a friend who dropped his CBR and I was going to use it to practice my painting skills, or lack thereof on, however I don't need it now as I decided to buy a new tank and fairings instead...btw, this one is black, just in case you were wondering...

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