Member Contributer Frogfoot Posted September 11, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted September 11, 2009 Hi all, Been kicking around some ideas for spending money on the VFR. I was over the past few months thinking about suspension upgrades. Whilst the current plan in the rear is to replace it with a Penske or similar shock, after recommendations that they are a good quality shock, I'm in a bit of a quandry in regards to the front. I had a discussion with a suspension guy this afternoon. His suggestion for the best result was to replace the forks in total. His suggestions were R1 or 03/04 ZX6R shocks. Are those good suggestions? Any other suggestions for a donor. What are simple fits? How big of a job is this (it isn't something I'm even dreaming of doing myself), what might need to be made up separately??? He then went on to say that I can keep the existing forks and upgrade the internals (which is the sort of work he can do). here a suggestion was 600rr parts into the original forks. He can also revalve etc. He cautioned me in regards to the fact that the original shocks are (obviously) limited in adjustments, but he also talked about not being concentric and wear taking place that way. Is this a consideration? Bike Background 2004 VFR done 95000km, prob 85% is commuting or in town work. Never had suspension serviced etc. Looking for ideas to keep it going for another 100,000 trouble free kms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirbster Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 I had a discussion with a suspension guy this afternoon. His suggestion for the best result was to replace the forks in total. His suggestions were R1 or 03/04 ZX6R shocks. Are those good suggestions? Any other suggestions for a donor. What are simple fits? How big of a job is this (it isn't something I'm even dreaming of doing myself), what might need to be made up separately??? Read this, this and this to get some ideas. The R1 is by far the better setup but is also a much more challenging project since you need to make a lot more customisations compared to the RC51 job. I have an RC51 conversion. Also I have a Penske 2 clicker shock on the back to go with it and I have to say I am absolutely stoked with the result. It's like getting a brand new bike. Also since you're in Sydney, if you didn't talk to this suspension guru then you should. He's done the setup on both mine and zRoYz conversions. He'll ramble on and on and half bore you to death but he sure knows what he's doing... :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer johnmark101 Posted September 11, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted September 11, 2009 I installed a Penske rear shock and had the stock front forks revalved and resprung based on my weight. Also upgraded the fork oil. The results were dramatic. A bit more front end feel and the bike turns quicker (Penske I bought is 7mm longer than the stock rear). I feel much more confident with the way the bike now handles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Frogfoot Posted September 11, 2009 Author Member Contributer Share Posted September 11, 2009 I had a discussion with a suspension guy this afternoon. His suggestion for the best result was to replace the forks in total. His suggestions were R1 or 03/04 ZX6R shocks. Are those good suggestions? Any other suggestions for a donor. What are simple fits? How big of a job is this (it isn't something I'm even dreaming of doing myself), what might need to be made up separately??? Read this, this and this to get some ideas. The R1 is by far the better setup but is also a much more challenging project since you need to make a lot more customisations compared to the RC51 job. I have an RC51 conversion. Also I have a Penske 2 clicker shock on the back to go with it and I have to say I am absolutely stoked with the result. It's like getting a brand new bike. Also since you're in Sydney, if you didn't talk to this suspension guru then you should. He's done the setup on both mine and zRoYz conversions. He'll ramble on and on and half bore you to death but he sure knows what he's doing... :laugh: Actually that is the suspension guy I talked to. Roy is the one who put me on to him. I guess all this swaps etc has me all a bit nervous about how to actually get the parts, make sure they're good condition etc. The other main problem is having the bike off the road for more than a couple of days. Though the advantage is that I could learn a lot more about looking after the bike! Where did you get the rear hugger? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer JamieDaugherty Posted September 11, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted September 11, 2009 I had a discussion with a suspension guy this afternoon. His suggestion for the best result was to replace the forks in total. His suggestions were R1 or 03/04 ZX6R shocks. Are those good suggestions? Any other suggestions for a donor. What are simple fits? How big of a job is this (it isn't something I'm even dreaming of doing myself), what might need to be made up separately??? That's not really very good advice. You should stick with Honda forks, or more specifically Showas. Try something like a CBR954RR or 929RR. The entire front will fit including the triple clamps. The triples are the biggest reason the R1 and ZX forks are a bad idea. Getting a complete front end to bolt in would be your best choice by a long shot. Applicable donor fork models would include: CBR600RR CBR1000RR CBR954RR CBR929RR RC51 He then went on to say that I can keep the existing forks and upgrade the internals (which is the sort of work he can do). here a suggestion was 600rr parts into the original forks. He can also revalve etc. He cautioned me in regards to the fact that the original shocks are (obviously) limited in adjustments, but he also talked about not being concentric and wear taking place that way. Is this a consideration? The 600RR internals are not a good choice, but rather the F4 or F4i could be adapted. That would gain you external rebound adjustment. Upgrading the stock valving is something I've done for many guys and it's always worked out well. For the money (less than $500) you can really make the stock forks work well. I'm not sure what he means by 'concentric', that part kind of concerns me and makes me wonder if he really knows what he's talking about. The stock VFR forks are the same build quality as any other Showa/Honda part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEBSPEED Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 I had a discussion with a suspension guy this afternoon. His suggestion for the best result was to replace the forks in total. His suggestions were R1 or 03/04 ZX6R shocks. Are those good suggestions? Any other suggestions for a donor. What are simple fits? How big of a job is this (it isn't something I'm even dreaming of doing myself), what might need to be made up separately??? That's not really very good advice. You should stick with Honda forks, or more specifically Showas. Try something like a CBR954RR or 929RR. The entire front will fit including the triple clamps. The triples are the biggest reason the R1 and ZX forks are a bad idea. What's the big deal, the forks are the same diameter, it's already been done & documented! The R1 conversion even allows for a matching front wheel. Getting a complete front end to bolt in would be your best choice by a long shot. Applicable donor fork models would include: CBR600RR CBR1000RR CBR954RR CBR929RR RC51 He then went on to say that I can keep the existing forks and upgrade the internals (which is the sort of work he can do). here a suggestion was 600rr parts into the original forks. He can also revalve etc. He cautioned me in regards to the fact that the original shocks are (obviously) limited in adjustments, but he also talked about not being concentric and wear taking place that way. Is this a consideration? The 600RR internals are not a good choice, but rather the F4 or F4i could be adapted. That would gain you external rebound adjustment. Upgrading the stock valving is something I've done for many guys and it's always worked out well. For the money (less than $500) you can really make the stock forks work well. 600RR's have rebound too, but are a different diameter cap/tube. I'm not sure what he means by 'concentric', that part kind of concerns me and makes me wonder if he really knows what he's talking about. The guy has almost 60,000 miles on stock, never serviced suspension. I would hazard to guess that he was referring to the tube & slider bushings! The stock VFR forks are the same build quality as any other Showa/Honda part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer FotoMoto Posted September 11, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted September 11, 2009 Another good choice that doesn't seem to get much "press" which I guess is due to not being an USD unit is the F4i. It also requires less total parts as you can use the VFR wheel and rotors; maybe the axle and spacers too but I forget. Remember, any front end replacement on a 5/6gen will require addressing the LBS brake issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marid2apterbilt Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 Another good choice that doesn't seem to get much "press" which I guess is due to not being an USD unit is the F4i. It also requires less total parts as you can use the VFR wheel and rotors; maybe the axle and spacers too but I forget.Remember, any front end replacement on a 5/6gen will require addressing the LBS brake issue. +1 to Jamie's post.. Im currently in the process of trying to work out the kinks of the valving using the F4 internals in the stock VFR forks.. Revalving is a must with the F4 mod.. The easiest and least ammount of Custom work way to go is the F4internals with Oem VFR forks, Resprung, and fork oil... Might not be the Top of the line way to go but it will bbe better than stock. + you wont have to redo the brake system.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baileyrock Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 Applicable donor fork models would include:CBR600RR CBR1000RR CBR954RR CBR929RR RC51 Most of these forks are way to short to use on a VFR except the RC51 and I don't remember if SP1 or SP2's are better of that choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEBSPEED Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 SP1's are longer. :biggrin: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Ryanme17 Posted September 11, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted September 11, 2009 Cartridge emulators (and a new spring, if you need it) can't be all that more expensive than changing around the whole front end, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marid2apterbilt Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 Cartridge emulators (and a new spring, if you need it) can't be all that more expensive than changing around the whole front end, right? http://www.traxxion.com/ Porn for shocks and forks http://traxxion.com/forkkits-2.aspx AK20 cartridge kit ( I have heard lots of great things and you can retro fit them to any bike (transfer) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baileyrock Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 Cartridge emulators (and a new spring, if you need it) can't be all that more expensive than changing around the whole front end, right? If I'm not mistaken, emulators are only for non-cartridge forks. Like SV 650's :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Phantom Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 I had a discussion with a suspension guy this afternoon. His suggestion for the best result was to replace the forks in total. His suggestions were R1 or 03/04 ZX6R shocks. Are those good suggestions? Any other suggestions for a donor. What are simple fits? How big of a job is this (it isn't something I'm even dreaming of doing myself), what might need to be made up separately??? That's not really very good advice. You should stick with Honda forks, or more specifically Showas. Try something like a CBR954RR or 929RR. The entire front will fit including the triple clamps. The triples are the biggest reason the R1 and ZX forks are a bad idea. Getting a complete front end to bolt in would be your best choice by a long shot. Jamie, the R1 forks go into the CBR929/954/SP1 triples with just some 2mm spacers, it's a piece of cake. The R1 forks are longer than 929/954 forks so you can get closer to the optimum geometry. Also, Zeno is the suspension tech for the Australian Superbike factory Suzuki team, so he has a few clues about what he's doing :rolleyes: (he did my forks too - actually he mated my 2004 R1 lowers to 2005 ZX-10R uppers with a bit of lathe trickery - and they are schmick) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Ryanme17 Posted September 12, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted September 12, 2009 Cartridge emulators (and a new spring, if you need it) can't be all that more expensive than changing around the whole front end, right? If I'm not mistaken, emulators are only for non-cartridge forks. Like SV 650's :beer: Yes, that's right, wrong terminology on my part. Gold valves??? Is that what I'm going for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirbster Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 Actually that is the suspension guy I talked to. Roy is the one who put me on to him. I guess all this swaps etc has me all a bit nervous about how to actually get the parts, make sure they're good condition etc. The other main problem is having the bike off the road for more than a couple of days. Though the advantage is that I could learn a lot more about looking after the bike!Where did you get the rear hugger? Ah, so you've already met James then? Interesting character, that one... Yeah getting parts second hand can be a bit of a lottery. I was lucky, the worst I had to deal with was a warped disc that was easily straightened. Someone else I know bought a set of forks that were just complete rubbish and unusable. Caveat emptor... The trick to fork swaps is to get everything you need beforehand, then plan it all exactly. You can have the job done in a weekend with good preparation. The rear hugger was made by these guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspanglish Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 I had a discussion with a suspension guy this afternoon. His suggestion for the best result was to replace the forks in total. His suggestions were R1 or 03/04 ZX6R shocks. Are those good suggestions? Any other suggestions for a donor. What are simple fits? How big of a job is this (it isn't something I'm even dreaming of doing myself), what might need to be made up separately??? That's not really very good advice. You should stick with Honda forks, or more specifically Showas. Try something like a CBR954RR or 929RR. The entire front will fit including the triple clamps. The triples are the biggest reason the R1 and ZX forks are a bad idea. Getting a complete front end to bolt in would be your best choice by a long shot. Applicable donor fork models would include: CBR600RR CBR1000RR CBR954RR CBR929RR RC51 He then went on to say that I can keep the existing forks and upgrade the internals (which is the sort of work he can do). here a suggestion was 600rr parts into the original forks. He can also revalve etc. He cautioned me in regards to the fact that the original shocks are (obviously) limited in adjustments, but he also talked about not being concentric and wear taking place that way. Is this a consideration? The 600RR internals are not a good choice, but rather the F4 or F4i could be adapted. That would gain you external rebound adjustment. Upgrading the stock valving is something I've done for many guys and it's always worked out well. For the money (less than $500) you can really make the stock forks work well. I'm not sure what he means by 'concentric', that part kind of concerns me and makes me wonder if he really knows what he's talking about. The stock VFR forks are the same build quality as any other Showa/Honda part. A somewhat bold statement considering who we are talking about here. No offense meant but admitting you are unsure of the meaning of the word concentric is a little more concerning. "Concentric objects share the same center, axis or origin with one inside the other. Circles, tubes, cylindrical shafts, disks, and spheres may be concentric to one another. Concentric objects do not generally have the same radius." A fork assembly is full of such objects. "Concentric" does not refer to "build quality". I think Seb is on track. You go on to recommend non-valid parts... I'm definitely no expert... far from it... but I don't try to pass as one. It is sound practice to question other's expertise but a little homework is always appreciated... I'm not trying to be "in your face", but the man in question has more than demonstrated his expertise... on par with the some of the best... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Frogfoot Posted September 13, 2009 Author Member Contributer Share Posted September 13, 2009 I think Seb is on track. I didn't get a chance to meet him as he was out test riding when I got to his shop. He called me back later and we had a good chat. I think what Seb is thinking about is the impression that I had from him as well. I guess, I'm probably leaning starting to think away from a whole fork replacement and to head towards a front fork rejuvenation. I realise (now) that I haven't been taking care of them as I should (silly me assuming that this kind of thing would be in the servicing) so I can only presume the innards are a bit tired. If I get new (right weight) springs, revalve and replace the oil, I assume I will have something better than it is now. I think I will also go ahead with replacing the rear shock though as even with my average skills I still occasionally feel as if the rear is a bit... well.... deflated, squashy. And I hope a new, better, properly tuned shock will improve that (and the rest of the ride as well) Does that sound fair. Then perhaps I can start looking into the sourcing the front at for the future??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer johnmark101 Posted September 13, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted September 13, 2009 I think Seb is on track. I didn't get a chance to meet him as he was out test riding when I got to his shop. He called me back later and we had a good chat. I think what Seb is thinking about is the impression that I had from him as well. I guess, I'm probably leaning starting to think away from a whole fork replacement and to head towards a front fork rejuvenation. I realise (now) that I haven't been taking care of them as I should (silly me assuming that this kind of thing would be in the servicing) so I can only presume the innards are a bit tired. If I get new (right weight) springs, revalve and replace the oil, I assume I will have something better than it is now. I think I will also go ahead with replacing the rear shock though as even with my average skills I still occasionally feel as if the rear is a bit... well.... deflated, squashy. And I hope a new, better, properly tuned shock will improve that (and the rest of the ride as well) Does that sound fair. Then perhaps I can start looking into the sourcing the front at for the future??? This is pretty much what I did and am very pleased with the results. At first I was not sure if I liked what I had done since it was a big change in the way the bike feels over bumps and when cornering. Some very minor adjusting and a few hundred miles later and now the VFR handles much more like a sport bike with no loss of comfort. Total cost was 900 bucks and I feel it was money well spent. I bought a slightly used Penske from a friend. I called Traxxion Dynamics and told them my weight and riding habits, then shipped them my fork tubes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer JamieDaugherty Posted September 13, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted September 13, 2009 I had a discussion with a suspension guy this afternoon. His suggestion for the best result was to replace the forks in total. His suggestions were R1 or 03/04 ZX6R shocks. Are those good suggestions? Any other suggestions for a donor. What are simple fits? How big of a job is this (it isn't something I'm even dreaming of doing myself), what might need to be made up separately??? That's not really very good advice. You should stick with Honda forks, or more specifically Showas. Try something like a CBR954RR or 929RR. The entire front will fit including the triple clamps. The triples are the biggest reason the R1 and ZX forks are a bad idea. Getting a complete front end to bolt in would be your best choice by a long shot. Applicable donor fork models would include: CBR600RR CBR1000RR CBR954RR CBR929RR RC51 He then went on to say that I can keep the existing forks and upgrade the internals (which is the sort of work he can do). here a suggestion was 600rr parts into the original forks. He can also revalve etc. He cautioned me in regards to the fact that the original shocks are (obviously) limited in adjustments, but he also talked about not being concentric and wear taking place that way. Is this a consideration? The 600RR internals are not a good choice, but rather the F4 or F4i could be adapted. That would gain you external rebound adjustment. Upgrading the stock valving is something I've done for many guys and it's always worked out well. For the money (less than $500) you can really make the stock forks work well. I'm not sure what he means by 'concentric', that part kind of concerns me and makes me wonder if he really knows what he's talking about. The stock VFR forks are the same build quality as any other Showa/Honda part. A somewhat bold statement considering who we are talking about here. No offense meant but admitting you are unsure of the meaning of the word concentric is a little more concerning. "Concentric objects share the same center, axis or origin with one inside the other. Circles, tubes, cylindrical shafts, disks, and spheres may be concentric to one another. Concentric objects do not generally have the same radius." A fork assembly is full of such objects. "Concentric" does not refer to "build quality". I think Seb is on track. You go on to recommend non-valid parts... I'm definitely no expert... far from it... but I don't try to pass as one. It is sound practice to question other's expertise but a little homework is always appreciated... I'm not trying to be "in your face", but the man in question has more than demonstrated his expertise... on par with the some of the best... As a degreed Mechanical Engineer I am very familiar with the definition of concentricity. My concern was what he meant by it, which I still do not see answered. Maybe it was something lost in translation? As for the other parts being non-valid: sure, they are shorter but my experience with these kind of fork swaps tells me that it would be actually easier to accomodate shorter forks than to open the can of worms thats comes along with mating Yamaha forks to Honda triples. Especially the mess you get when trying to get the wheel/calipers/rotors to all line up properly. Maybe this is really simple as you suggest, it was me expressing a concern and trying to redirect down a path that I thought would be better. Zeno is for sure the man. I've spoken with him on the topic of suspension tuning on many occasions. If that is where you are getting your advice then I would say go with whatever he tells you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEBSPEED Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 As a degreed Mechanical Engineer I am very familiar with the definition of concentricity. My concern was what he meant by it, which I still do not see answered. Maybe it was something lost in translation? Sure seems that way...As for the other parts being non-valid: sure, they are shorter but my experience with these kind of fork swaps tells me that it would be actually easier to accomodate shorter forks than to open the can of worms thats comes along with mating Yamaha forks to Honda triples. Especially the mess you get when trying to get the wheel/calipers/rotors to all line up properly. Maybe this is really simple as you suggest, it was me expressing a concern and trying to redirect down a path that I thought would be better. For years you've been telling VF owners the exact opposite! Yep, I'd much rather have my tire hit my cylinder head than make a couple new wheel and/or rotor spacers... :excl: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Phantom Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 As for the other parts being non-valid: sure, they are shorter but my experience with these kind of fork swaps tells me that it would be actually easier to accomodate shorter forks than to open the can of worms thats comes along with mating Yamaha forks to Honda triples. Especially the mess you get when trying to get the wheel/calipers/rotors to all line up properly. Maybe this is really simple as you suggest, it was me expressing a concern and trying to redirect down a path that I thought would be better. That's a fair enough point. The 2004+ R1 swap is definitely a simple one. As the R1 forks are normally spaced 210mm apart and the Honda triples space the forks 214mm apart you simply need a bunch of 2mm spacers per side, on either side of the OEM axle spacers, and between the rotors and wheel (as you can't space radial calipers). Zeno is for sure the man. I've spoken with him on the topic of suspension tuning on many occasions. If that is where you are getting your advice then I would say go with whatever he tells you. 'Within reason'... Zeno's advice is very track-centric, and he needs a bit of a prod to remember that his customers also ride their bikes on (bumpy) Australian roads :biggrin: And if you value your time, avoid getting into theological discussions with him - easier said than done, given the way he can link such disparate terms as 'springrate' and 'existentialist' in a long rambling monologue that often does actually end up having a valid and relevant point... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer JamieDaugherty Posted September 14, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted September 14, 2009 As for the other parts being non-valid: sure, they are shorter but my experience with these kind of fork swaps tells me that it would be actually easier to accomodate shorter forks than to open the can of worms thats comes along with mating Yamaha forks to Honda triples. Especially the mess you get when trying to get the wheel/calipers/rotors to all line up properly. Maybe this is really simple as you suggest, it was me expressing a concern and trying to redirect down a path that I thought would be better. For years you've been telling VF owners the exact opposite! Yep, I'd much rather have my tire hit my cylinder head than make a couple new wheel and/or rotor spacers... :beer: I most certainly have not! Clearly when performing a fork swap you should always check clearances, especially with the forks completely compressed. I never said anything to the contrary in this thread. What I have stated is that it would be easier to deal with setting up the forks longer rather than trying to make a hodge-podge (my assumption) of forks/triples/wheel/rotors/calipers work correctly together. The point being that while it would be difficult to setup, say a CBR1000RR front end, it would be easier in my opinion. 'Within reason'... Zeno's advise is very track-centric, and he needs a bit of a prod to remember that his customers also ride their bikes on (bumpy) Australian roads :goofy: And if you value your time, avoid getting into theological discussions with him - easier said than done, given the way he can link such disparate terms as 'springrate' and 'existentialist' in a long rambling monologue that often does actually end up having a valid and relevant point... Agreed! You should see some of our correspondences. It sounds like you wouldn't be to surprised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baileyrock Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Lets not forget that most everyone's advice here is meant to be positive, whether it happens to be accurate or not! So lets try not to get at each other here, just support with facts if possible and let other thing slide as long as it's not info that could get someone hurt. Lets not go personal. :beer: Hell even I have giver bogus info on occasion! :blush: btw JD, the R1 fork swap on a VFR is one of the most common used. Yes we all wish mother Honda would have easy frankenviffer swaps for us and our VFR's but there are few even possibilities. The RC51 Sp1 forks are one of the few that work well but tend to be fairly scarce. I'm currently looking at using k7 GSXR forks on my project bike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tightwad Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 OK, so to summerize the "What to look for" parts when swapping the whole front end...it comes down to this: Total Front end length (avoid compressing and hitting the motor etc) Fork Spacing for upper and lower triple's Fork size...USD forks would naturally not mate with stock triples, but other triples might bolt in? Desired fronts to use...R1 is good, CB350 is bad, etc...Jimmy offered a list: CBR600RR CBR1000RR CBR954RR CBR929RR RC51 ...I am sure there are more, and what years are better/worse? Along with this would be ease of changing based on a compromise: If I am unwilling/unable to change the triples, what options are there? If I need to use the wheel/rotors I have, what options? If money is no object, which is best? If I need SOMETHING, but I don't care what, which is easiest beyond OEM replacement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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