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Why Does Honda Fit Their Bikes With Such Weak Suspension?


fastbroshi

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Just got done reading the Fatty McGee thread here:

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.p...51678&st=30

There were some comments about how losing weight makes the bike handle better, inputs are more readily felt, etc. That got me thinking. The average American is let's say, 50lbs heavier than your typical Japanese or even Asian person. I'd venture to say this is Honda's biggest market, in Asia.

I have a hard time believing Honda won't fit uprated springs and such because of the logistics involved, but I think this is the case. Which is crazy when you think about all the man hours that goes into R&D for these bikes. How about more of a middle ground Honda? Why not set it up for 175lb rider instead of 150lb?

I'm sure the folks in the East love their Hondas and the way they ride, but isn't Honda concerned with what their customers think? I think the consensus is ALL of our bikes, even the 929s and 600RRs can use some suspension work, unless your a female and then you're more inline with the Asian males :biggrin:

Our market is obviously a lot smaller than the Asian one, but I don't think small enough to not warrant a different setup.

Thoughts? Talk amongst yourselves, discuss, discuss.

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Look at it this way, how many people do you know who have refused to buy a particular bike because they didn't like the spring rate on the suspension?? Me neither. Yes they should care about their customer base, heck even the skinny pro riders weigh more than 150lbs especially when you factor in the heavy race leathers, but yet they pick a random number out of thin air and that's what we get and we continue buying them because, well.....ever manufacturer pretty much does the same thing.

George

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I agree that the stock suspension components for US-bound bikes should "fit" slightly heavier riders, but especially on bikes aimed at the sport-touring segment, designed to be ridden loaded with bags and/or 2-up.

But I also agree with George - suspension is one of those things you mod if necessary, and for most people isn't a barrier to buying a certain bike. I'm planning to mod my VFR's suspenders this off-season. smile.gif

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If my VFR was any stiffer it would be uncomfortable on some of the roads I ride... I have buddies with sport bikes who do not like going with me due to a few roads I ride on...

I think mine is about right. I am 170-180pounds depending on how much I train on the other two wheeler with pedals.

Its not a sport bike its a sporty touring bike... I think some people tend to view their VFR as a super sport bike when its not designed for that...

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Of course you are correct Gary, we tend to make the bikes what we want them to be and often that is different than what they were designed to be. I didn't add my personal view in there, but my VFR fits me pretty decent at 195lbs, but I also tend to ride some rough roads, including a 13 miel section of dirt road I take on the way to work sometimes just to change things up a bit.

George

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Guest Pete McCrary

My 2¢ on the subject:

Have you ever thought that motorcycles are probably the least adjustable of all vehicles made when it comes to fitting the operator? Think about it, would you buy a car or pickup that the seat could not be adjusted? Or that you had to unbolt the seat to move back or forward? What a PITA that would be. Even my John Deere riding lawn mower's seat can be adjusted for different height operators.

Anything you can adjust on a motorcycle to fit your particular size has to be done with tools (levers, brake pedal, gear shift, etc). Motorcycles in some mode of thought are still fairly crude vehicles.

Honda did make the seat on the ST1300 adjustable which was a major step. It can be installed in 3 different positions to accommodate riders of various heights.

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There were some comments about how losing weight makes the bike handle better, inputs are more readily felt, etc. That got me thinking. The average American is let's say, 50lbs heavier than your typical Japanese or even Asian person.

spotted a little typo in your post

The average American is let's say, 100lbs heavier than your

:laugh: :biggrin:

Until I started reading VFRD, I never felt my suspension was inadequate................ I somehow think most motorcyclists are the same.

It is a bit like Doug's comments on bad/good sex......... :laugh:

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There were some comments about how losing weight makes the bike handle better, inputs are more readily felt, etc. That got me thinking. The average American is let's say, 50lbs heavier than your typical Japanese or even Asian person.

spotted a little typo in your post

The average American is let's say, 100lbs heavier than your

:cool: :biggrin:

Until I started reading VFRD, I never felt my suspension was inadequate................ I somehow think most motorcyclists are the same.

It is a bit like Doug's comments on bad/good sex......... :biggrin:

what's this "bad sex" you guys keeping talking about? :huh: :laugh:

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Phhh a women may have bad sex but I think most men its all Gooooood :biggrin:

Man: Like a dog with two legs... Like to hump, and play with his buddies! Including getting in trouble for doing REALLY stupid things... Age limit not applicable.

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I feel for you 295 pound Vifferisti regarding weak suspensions (166 lbs and still counting). But more than the suspension, it's sad that you can't feel the acceleration that some of the lighter riders are lucky enough to experience.

If my bike 06 weighs 700lbs with me on it, assuming 100HP (7lb/HP), then a 295 lb rider would need a 118HP motor to get the same kick...

BI

OH I get it...that's why you're all screaming for a 150HP, 450lb 7th gen...doh!

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Honda's suspension defines the character of their sports touring

machines and they don't wish to stray very far with each model... when

you get on a new VFR Honda thinks it should feel a lot like the old

VFR... but they did up the ante quite a bit more back in 98...

Quote Essential Superbike Scans:

"Improving on the old VFR7S0 was always going to be a difficult task,

simply because that was such a brilliant bike in the first place. But

for 1998 that was exactly what Honda had to do, as even the most

outstanding machines are eventually overtaken by time. Whether by

accident or design (and we suspect it was probably accidental) as well

as uprating the VFR dynamically, Honda also managed to address the

perennial criticism of the bike that it had always been lacking when

it came to character. Hard to define, but often easy to understand

after riding the bike. Clearly there had been a capacity increase, but

the VFR800's engine was more than a set of larger pistons. Instead, it

was an entirely new unit based on the RC4S's V-four and thus

essentially was much the same motor which had taken John Kocinski to

the 1997 World Superbike Championship. All of a sudden, this friendly,

easy-going and thoroughly capable sports-tourer had been endowed with

an extra 3,000 rpm at the top of its rev range, with an aural

accompaniment to get the pulse racing. The best sports tourer in the

world had just got better in all its old strengths, and in addition

the already broad spectrum of its abilities had spread even wider.

Straight after its introduction, the VFR looked as unassailable as

ever. But first a warning shot was fired, from the unlikely source of

Ducati's Bologna factory, in the shape of the ST2."

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I agree that the stock suspension components for US-bound bikes should "fit" slightly heavier riders, but especially on bikes aimed at the sport-touring segment, designed to be ridden loaded with bags and/or 2-up.

But I also agree with George - suspension is one of those things you mod if necessary, and for most people isn't a barrier to buying a certain bike. I'm planning to mod my VFR's suspenders this off-season. smile.gif

That's the thing, if you spoke to their engineers, you KNOW they'd recommend different spring rates for our continent. And cars don't apply here: apples and oranges. I think it comes down to a money thing. Honda doesn't change it because they don't have to. There's not enough squeaking coming from the wheel to get any grease.

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This only applies to new bikes, but I always thought it would be cool if dealerships did the following when you bought a bike:

  1. Set sag
  2. If sag cannot be set because the stock springs don't have enough range for the rider, swap out the fork/shock springs to match rider weight

That would make too much sense, though. It would cost a little more, but at least people would get the most from their new bike right away.

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Just got done reading the Fatty McGee thread here:

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.p...51678&st=30

There were some comments about how losing weight makes the bike handle better, inputs are more readily felt, etc. That got me thinking. The average American is let's say, 50lbs heavier than your typical Japanese or even Asian person. I'd venture to say this is Honda's biggest market, in Asia.

I have a hard time believing Honda won't fit uprated springs and such because of the logistics involved, but I think this is the case. Which is crazy when you think about all the man hours that goes into R&D for these bikes. How about more of a middle ground Honda? Why not set it up for 175lb rider instead of 150lb?

I'm sure the folks in the East love their Hondas and the way they ride, but isn't Honda concerned with what their customers think? I think the consensus is ALL of our bikes, even the 929s and 600RRs can use some suspension work, unless your a female and then you're more inline with the Asian males :biggrin:

Our market is obviously a lot smaller than the Asian one, but I don't think small enough to not warrant a different setup.

Thoughts? Talk amongst yourselves, discuss, discuss.

The factory set up is for an Asian rider, yes, but that's how Mother Honda does it, and so that's how our bikes are. Honda isn't the only manufacturer to do this. At the Lee Parks Clinic he went through and took a quick look at all of our bikes, not one was really set up well. Some of the more expensive options (like the BMW electronic adjustable suspension) were the worst. Not many bikes even have compression and rebound damping adjustability, pretty much just GSXR's and Race Replicas.

Why don't they do this? It wouldn't be cost effective, because, as others have pointed out, the average rider doesn't think about this. The average rider, given a test ride, isn't thinking how well the bike performs, he's thinking how it feels. And, even though a softer suspension isn't better, given a short test ride over a bumpy road, it feels more forgiving. That's what sells.

Magazine reviewers, in particular, seem to not care about a too-soft suspension, but seem to hate a too-harsh suspension. It's a vicious cycle...

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