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Understanding The R/r Inside And Out


Tightwad

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You don't make IED's do you?? :blink:

Wouldn't put it past Dale.... :ph34r: :cool:

Only for fun, and pre-Patriot act of course...although "Improved" would be pushing it...

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I now have 98% of the parts needed to make my own R/R, and test some theories. More to come on this topic as I actually do something.

On a side note, I now know how to make an adjustable low amperage voltage regulator, which I needed to correctly set the on-off point of the R/R. I also obtained some high-amp parts that will hopefully not fry something.

If the purpose of the R/R is to convert excess electricity to heat and heat destroys the R/R, why not separate the vulnerable components from the heat by having a remote electric radiator separate from the R/R electrical components?

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I now have 98% of the parts needed to make my own R/R, and test some theories. More to come on this topic as I actually do something.

On a side note, I now know how to make an adjustable low amperage voltage regulator, which I needed to correctly set the on-off point of the R/R. I also obtained some high-amp parts that will hopefully not fry something.

If the purpose of the R/R is to convert excess electricity to heat and heat destroys the R/R, why not separate the vulnerable components from the heat by having a remote electric radiator separate from the R/R electrical components?

The real key is to make it so the R/R doesn't need to bleed off the excess, thus the componets that typically fail (SCRs) won't even have the chance. This was a very interesting read:

A permanent magnet alternator really needs to have a battery in good

condition connected to the regulator DC output.

The battery forces the system to operate somewhere near battery

voltage.

An almost dead battery forces the alternator to run at about 12.0

volts or less.

A fully charged battery in good condition lets the alternator run up

to around

18 volts before gassing and boiling the electrolyte, if the regulator

fails.

The regulating circuit tries to keep the voltage between about 14.5

and 15.5~16.0 volts, depending on whether it's a flooded-cell battery

or a maintenance free AGM battery.

The permanent magnet alternator system uses a three phase full wave

rectifier bridge to change the AC into DC. You will find a .pdf file

that shows a typical rectifier bridge at

http://www.electrosport.com/electrosport_electrical_home.htm when you

click on the technical links.

If you have an ohmmeter, you can easily do the diode check, but you

would need a variable voltage power supply to test the voltage

regulating circuitry in the regulator.

If one of the diodes is blown out, this reduces the power output of

the alternator by half, for half a cycle. Blow out two diodes and the

output could be anywhere from half power to almost nothing, depending

on which of the six diodes is blown.

In order to regulate voltage, this type of shunt regulator has a

silicon control rectifier (SCR) hooked up between one pair of power

diodes and there is a zener diode that senses when voltage rises above

about 14.5 ~ 15 volts *with the regulator conected to the battery*.

If you try to operate this system with the regulator output

disconnected from the battery, the zener diode will continously tell

the SCR to shunt excess current to ground and the regulator will get

very hot when the engine is running.

It's normal for an SCR or a diode to get *somewhat* hot when you run

power through it, though. That's why the regulator is housed in a

finned aluminum heat sink.

But the charging system of a modern motorcycle is really designed to

burn up excess power that isn't charging the battery by lighting the

headlight and taillights, not by continuously shunting ALL the power

to ground via the SCR.

The best solution would be to avoid riding the motorcycle until the

rectifier regulator is replaced.

forgot to give credit to the author: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.motorcy...6f1bb8cbbdacae2

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Sooo.... to put it simply, a typical RR failure condition that includes the RR and wiring burning up and a low charging/system voltage reading means that the RR is wrongly shunting too much of the juice and converting it to destructive heat that eventually burns up the RR itself and the related wiring???

Also, what explains a good voltage reading at idle (13.8 volts) that drops to a barely adequate voltage like 12.8 volts when revs go up towards 5000RPMs. Is this just a symptom of bad regulating by a damaged RR?? I've seen a lot of posts descirbing this condition with their bikes.

Beck

95 VFR

Edited by Beck
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Having delt with the rr problem on my 98, I'm still curious as to what happens.

My experiences all point to the connector from the stator to the rr. I've owned my VFR since new and have ridden it 20,000 miles in most types of weather. My suspicion is that over time, the connector gets some moisture from the atmosphere which inhibits a good connection which creates heat which melts plastic housing.

I replaced my original rr last October 07 with one from Electrosport. I had to break the connector getting it apart and ended up replacing the burnt terminals with new ones... no problems during a 4 day, 1500 mile trip. Being the consumant tinkerer, I keep looking for causes and effects. I got a 4 unit Batterytender which I keep hooked up all the time (I also have an SV650 and a VTR). While trying to keep an eye on things, I probably created a poor connection at the terminal block and it ended up melting completely. A call to Electrosport indicated that they were redesigning their rr and would get it off to me ASAP - 2 months went by with no rr! To cure the connector problem, I could either solder the 3 yellow stator wires to the rr or.... use Posi-Lock connectors. I'd seen them reviewed on WebBikeworld (a great site btw) and decided to try them. So far, no issues. I also mounted a small CPU fan to the rr which reduces it temperature by about 20-30 degrees.

Have I fixed the problem? I don't know yet. I haven't seen the fuse or the associated link overheat either.

Mac Morgan

Hockessin, DE

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Having delt with the rr problem on my 98, I'm still curious as to what happens.

My experiences all point to the connector from the stator to the rr. I've owned my VFR since new and have ridden it 20,000 miles in most types of weather. My suspicion is that over time, the connector gets some moisture from the atmosphere which inhibits a good connection which creates heat which melts plastic housing.

I replaced my original rr last October 07 with one from Electrosport. I had to break the connector getting it apart and ended up replacing the burnt terminals with new ones... no problems during a 4 day, 1500 mile trip. Being the consumant tinkerer, I keep looking for causes and effects. I got a 4 unit Batterytender which I keep hooked up all the time (I also have an SV650 and a VTR). While trying to keep an eye on things, I probably created a poor connection at the terminal block and it ended up melting completely. A call to Electrosport indicated that they were redesigning their rr and would get it off to me ASAP - 2 months went by with no rr! To cure the connector problem, I could either solder the 3 yellow stator wires to the rr or.... use Posi-Lock connectors. I'd seen them reviewed on WebBikeworld (a great site btw) and decided to try them. So far, no issues. I also mounted a small CPU fan to the rr which reduces it temperature by about 20-30 degrees.

Have I fixed the problem? I don't know yet. I haven't seen the fuse or the associated link overheat either.

Mac Morgan

Hockessin, DE

Fixing the Stator connector to a more positive locking type is an ideal fix. If someone had a connector that let you bolt ring terminals together that would allow for the most surface area, and prevent the arcing that occurs and generates heat.

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This is a very well detailed description for a non- electrical engineer. Very informative. Well done.

-Disclaimer:

"I'm an Electrical Engineer and I approve this thread"

(I've been overloaded by politics lately)

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...and to those who strap a fan on an R/R, that's the best thing you can do to extend the life of it.

An R/R that is designed too close to it's tolerances (i.e. minimal heat removal designed into it to save a few bucks) will run hotter on average and the heat over time is detrimental to the devices. As the R/R compnents run continuously at higher temps they break down over time and you eventually allow a higher current to pass thru the resistors which generates even more heat. This compounding effect will increase exponentially untill a meltdown is reached. A well designed R/R would have larger heat sinks and thus better heat transfer away from the components. Again, strapping a fan on early can greatly extend the life of an R/R, especially for those living in warmer average climates.

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This is a very well detailed description for a non- electrical engineer. Very informative. Well done.

-Disclaimer:

"I'm an Electrical Engineer and I approve this thread"

(I've been overloaded by politics lately)

Good thing one of us is!!

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For those who wish to see the Schematic(s) used, I am including them below. I am testing two different kinds, to see what I think. The first is easily adjustable (before sealing up of course), and the second is adjusted using the correct resistor values.

recregmotorcyclecircuitvd5.gif

VoltRegMagnetField.gif

I have bench tested the first method(prior to Stator hookup, just checking that the SCRs trip as expected), more pictures to come later. I found I needed a higher resistance potentiometer than was specified, and I will be researching why that is.

As a disclaimer, I did not create these circuits.

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So how does this differ from an automotive charging system, if at all?

Alternators in cars can actually control the Electromagnetic field to stop the charging altogether. This isn't possible on a bike without increased space needed.

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  • 4 weeks later...
...and to those who strap a fan on an R/R, that's the best thing you can do to extend the life of it.

Better yet, relocate it to some location where it gets a continuous stream of 'fresh' air. Doesn't even have to be cool air, as long as it can transport the heat away from the RR.

Ducati acts a lot quicker than Honda as there is a recall for the 1098 & 848 that has charging problems due to an overheating regulator/rectifier. The RR is located close to the exhaust and the fix is that the RR will be replaced and a heat shield put betwen the RR and the exhaust pipe.

Ducati_1098_848_voltage_rectifier.jpg

MODEL - FROM FRAME NO. - TO FRAME NO.- COVERING KIT - REPLACE REGULATOR

1098 ZDMH700AA6B000006 ZDMH700AA8B018809 YES YES

1098 ZDMH700AA8B018810 ZDMH700AA8B020465 YES NO

1098 R ZDMH702AB7B010185 ZDMH703AB8B016331 YES YES

1098 R ZDMH702AB8B016342 ZDMH702AB8B020314 YES NO

848 ZDMH600AA7B000001 ZDMH600AA8B005624 YES YES

848 ZDMH600AA8B005625 ZDMH600AA8B007708 YES NO

Bron: Motornieuws.nl

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...and to those who strap a fan on an R/R, that's the best thing you can do to extend the life of it.

Better yet, relocate it to some location where it gets a continuous stream of 'fresh' air. Doesn't even have to be cool air, as long as it can transport the heat away from the RR.

Ducati acts a lot quicker than Honda as there is a recall for the 1098 & 848 that has charging problems due to an overheating regulator/rectifier. The RR is located close to the exhaust and the fix is that the RR will be replaced and a heat shield put betwen the RR and the exhaust pipe.

Ducati_1098_848_voltage_rectifier.jpg

MODEL - FROM FRAME NO. - TO FRAME NO.- COVERING KIT - REPLACE REGULATOR

1098 ZDMH700AA6B000006 ZDMH700AA8B018809 YES YES

1098 ZDMH700AA8B018810 ZDMH700AA8B020465 YES NO

1098 R ZDMH702AB7B010185 ZDMH703AB8B016331 YES YES

1098 R ZDMH702AB8B016342 ZDMH702AB8B020314 YES NO

848 ZDMH600AA7B000001 ZDMH600AA8B005624 YES YES

848 ZDMH600AA8B005625 ZDMH600AA8B007708 YES NO

Bron: Motornieuws.nl

Moving the R/R is not easy, although it can be done. The 6th gens don't have near the heat issue that previous models had. 3rd and 4th gen were the worst, because the surface area of the R/R was so small.

As an update, I tested one circuit and didn't have the results I wanted. I did find that they SCR's heated up nice and fast, to well over 130 degrees (they are on a computer headsink, so not ideal). I am hoping to have more time over the Christmas break to play with it, and to try an alternate circuit.

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Guest slowf2337
My meter only reads to 200, so I stopped here. This means we need an effective way to reduce the output to a usable level....ie 12-15 volts at max. The way it is currently done is by shunting the excessive current to ground. directly from the stator....when output voltage exceeds need, the phase in action goes to ground. This is a similar design to what is used in most Motorcycle Regulator/Rectifiers today:

voltreg2.jpg

By using an SCR (Silicone Controlled Rectifier) we can control when the grounding happens. SCR's are pretty cool...when set correctly you can trigger them just by touching them....like those touch lamps everyone has played with at some point. Is this the best method? No one seems to have a better one. What is the side effect? The side effect is heat, and lots of it....thus we need a way to bleed off the heat, thus the importance of a good heat sink, including cooling fins and airflow.

Stay tuned, as my next step will be to re-create the circuit above and create controlled output!

By shunting the current straight to ground with the SCR's aren't you are going to put a load on the engine at high RPM? I honestly don't see this as a much better system then the current design. Honda's wiring and components suck. The placement of them on the chassis are poorly thought out and executed. Electrically the original design functions correctly. By design RR's make more heat when there is more load placed on them. Anything that makes as much heat as a rectifier needs to be physically designed to handle it, Honda didn't do that. They only designed it to handle a correctly functioning charging system. As soon as loads increase beyond a properly functioning system (weak battery or bad connections/grounds) it overloads/overheats and fails. Honda got cheap and lowered there quality to the point we have problems with them. The eighties bikes had better designed RR's and the bikes of the time had a lower load on there electrical systems that they had to power. If you look at the eighties RR's they are fully encased in metal with built in heat sinks then in the nineties they came out with the metal box that was potted with epoxy. Now they have gone back to the eighties design.

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My meter only reads to 200, so I stopped here. This means we need an effective way to reduce the output to a usable level....ie 12-15 volts at max. The way it is currently done is by shunting the excessive current to ground. directly from the stator....when output voltage exceeds need, the phase in action goes to ground. This is a similar design to what is used in most Motorcycle Regulator/Rectifiers today:

voltreg2.jpg

By using an SCR (Silicone Controlled Rectifier) we can control when the grounding happens. SCR's are pretty cool...when set correctly you can trigger them just by touching them....like those touch lamps everyone has played with at some point. Is this the best method? No one seems to have a better one. What is the side effect? The side effect is heat, and lots of it....thus we need a way to bleed off the heat, thus the importance of a good heat sink, including cooling fins and airflow.

Stay tuned, as my next step will be to re-create the circuit above and create controlled output!

By shunting the current straight to ground with the SCR's aren't you are going to put a load on the engine at high RPM? I honestly don't see this as a much better system then the current design. Honda's wiring and components suck. The placement of them on the chassis are poorly thought out and executed. Electrically the original design functions correctly. By design RR's make more heat when there is more load placed on them. Anything that makes as much heat as a rectifier needs to be physically designed to handle it, Honda didn't do that. They only designed it to handle a correctly functioning charging system. As soon as loads increase beyond a properly functioning system (weak battery or bad connections/grounds) it overloads/overheats and fails. Honda got cheap and lowered there quality to the point we have problems with them. The eighties bikes had better designed RR's and the bikes of the time had a lower load on there electrical systems that they had to power. If you look at the eighties RR's they are fully encased in metal with built in heat sinks then in the nineties they came out with the metal box that was potted with epoxy. Now they have gone back to the eighties design.

This IS the current method Honda (and most everyone) uses. There is little other choice actually, because we don't have a "field" circuit that can be activated/deactivated like a car does.

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The scr's don't go straight to ground in the schmatics I've seen.

If you have some to share that would be great. The only way to limit the charging is to divert the voltage from the Rectifiers to somewhere, and Ground is where they go. If they didn't go to Ground the Rectifier would just keep on charging.

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Guest slowf2337

I'm not really strong on electronics design but I sort of understand the fundimentals. I can't find an internal schmatic of a funtioning pulse generator for an RR but I don't understand why you would put the output to ground. It would over heat the scr and it would put a load on the field.

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_7/5.html

Edited by slowf2337
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I'm not really strong on electronics design but I sort of understand the fundimentals. I can't find an internal schmatic of a funtioning pulse generator for an RR but I don't understand why you would put the output to ground. It would over heat the scr and it would put a load on the field.

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_7/5.html

Well, the purpose of the SCR is to transfer high amounts of current to ground...in the case of the SCRs I am testing with each can handle 35 amps I believe. Usually only one or two legs needs to be grounded to reduce the charging voltage.

The reason you have to ground them is otherwise the Diode would keep passing the voltage. If you tried to just disconnect the power from the diode you would get problems with arcing and such...too much power to switch on and off, so you ground the excess.

As long as your ground plane is good, and you have a way to bleed of extra heat, you don't have an issue. Smaller charging systems also have less of an issue as their initial output isn't that great.

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  • 1 month later...

Why don't they just increase the surface area of the metal fins to help conduct heat to the atmosphere? OK, they'd have to basically be bigger, but there's room up there at least on the VTEC...

Just a quicky... if the connector is a weak link, in my experience, it's the white connector which melts, and that's between the stator and the R/R, and based on what I've read here, the R/R dumps excess to ground, which I imagine is one of the wires passing through the other connector (black on my bikes), yet I've never seen this connector melt... question: if the other point mentioned as responsible for the damaging heat build up at the connectors is the bad connection to ground and thus inefficient dumping of excess, if I "beef up" the wires and run another ground wire upstream from the black connector, will I help avoid this inefficient grounding? I've already got your VFRness on my 2003 VTECker, which I imagine addresses this issue anyway... can it be improved even more?

Sent you a PM as well...

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  • 8 months later...

Aspunal, The white connector has been melting for many years and on many honda models. The fix is to eliminate the connector and solder and using beefier higher gage wire is good. The best fix would be to beef up all wires and run to the front of the bike where it can get all kinds of air flow. Or move it somewhere where it gets more flow. Old triumphs used to have the reg mounted inbetween the forks under the headlight. It would be some work running the wires but.....

Tightwad, did you ever get a working rectifier/regulator going?

Edited by V4MGNA
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On my 4th Gen, I put some heat conducting gel behind the new (third or fourth) R/R. I think I picked that up from a FAQ on this site.

I did buy a cpu fan but never mounted it. If I had the energy, I would move it to the front like others have done.

Tightwad's idea with SCRs is a good one. These will come with larger heat sinks, so heat problem solved.

As has been said, because we can't control the field in the alternator, any excess energy that is generated has to be dumped or the voltage will spike and blow everything up !

Alan

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As the RPMs increase the voltage increases, ok. If you could go from a 3 to 2 to a single coil output, would you not be knocking down all of the extra current and load? My little idea would be a voltage sensing circuit which would disconnect the windings as the voltage increased. Since it looks as though you are using a individual diode circuit per each coil set, deactivating two at the top rpms might be a bit choppy, but might still could do the job. My thought is that with SCRs, what is the sense of a coil if all it is being done is throwing the current down the heat drain. A single coil should do the trick at top speed, at mid speeds two would work, and at greater loads and or lower rpms, all three. "On my orders, unleash hell".

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  • 1 year later...

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