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Question About Transitions


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Now that the effects from last year's wreck are starting to subside, I find myself starting to hang off the bike in turns (which is new to me.) I did NOT practice that at TMAC since I don't know the roads well enough (and didn't want to push my luck with the wife who didn't want me to go racing around the mountains with you guys.) Anyway, when I switch sides in quick corners, I find myself upsetting the chassis just a little and the bike wiggles. My knee is on the tank, my butt is off the seat, and my weight is not on the bars... so what am I missing? That little wiggle in the back end of the bike is not bad, but I feel like I can make it stop if I knew what I was messing up.

As usual, thanks in advance for the help :fing02:

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Work on your smooooth. Could also be a suspension issue. You're a big(tall) guy, you might be alright by just scooching over a little on the seat, then leaning your upper body forward and into the turn. Try it out.

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Will, I suggest you take a school to help hone your street skills, not track skills!

Most people never ride fast enough to Need to hang off the bike on the street and it's a waste of time most of the time. I rarely move off my seat unless I'm running extreme speeds (for me) as it's just not needed for most riders at moderate Paces .

Smoothness and knowledge are key

Sure there are times when some track skills can help, but you sure don't need them to be a competent, quick & safe rider. :fing02:

As far as I'm concerned the two biggest factors in confidence and smoothness are:

- Looking as far froward through every turn(that means through any rider or cage in front of you).

- Counter Steering ! the bike will do just about anything, it is Only our inputs that screw it up!!!

Basically if you just sit on the bike and not lean one way or the other (stay perpendicular to the bike) and use CS you will be amazed just how easy it all is. Add looking through every turn and watch out, a competent rider might just pop out.

Hanging off usually slows your ability to do weight transitions fast enough in left/right type situations and casually upset the bike more than help. You can be just as effective (on the Street) by leaning just your upper body to the low side and forward and these body transitions can be accomplished much faster and smoother then hanging your Butt off the seat. :beer:

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Will, I suggest you take a school to help hone your street skills, not track skills!

Most people never ride fast enough to Need to hang off the bike on the street and it's a waste of time most of the time. I rarely move off my seat unless I'm running extreme speeds (for me) as it's just not needed for most riders at moderate Paces .

Smoothness and knowledge are key

Sure there are times when some track skills can help, but you sure don't need them to be a competent, quick & safe rider. :fing02:

As far as I'm concerned the two biggest factors in confidence and smoothness are:

- Looking as far froward through every turn(that means through any rider or cage in front of you).

- Counter Steering ! the bike will do just about anything, it is Only our inputs that screw it up!!!

Basically if you just sit on the bike and not lean one way or the other (stay perpendicular to the bike) and use CS you will be amazed just how easy it all is. Add looking through every turn and watch out, a competent rider might just pop out.

Hanging off usually slows your ability to do weight transitions fast enough in left/right type situations and casually upset the bike more than help. You can be just as effective (on the Street) by leaning just your upper body to the low side and forward and these body transitions can be accomplished much faster and smoother then hanging your Butt off the seat. :beer:

............ :cool: Most of the time, I simply slide over to one side, get my upper body out over the inside handlebar, head up toward the inside mirror, inside footpeg weighted. Countersteering............. :fing02: About all you need on the street Will. The lighter the bike, the more your body weight changes it. 6th Gen VFRs transition really well, especially given their weight.....Practice smoothness......you will be amazed. I've graduated Mitzie to body shifting more...her smoothness on flat, non-cambered, 90 degree country roads is improving every weekend............. :fing02:

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OK, I should have qualified this... I'm not hanging off like Jeremy or anything like that. I am nowhere near that level... Just moving my butt to one side of the seat or the other, getting my torso over the tank, and my head near the mirror that's on the inside of the turn. I am going through corners faster doing this, but when I move to the other side, sometimes it's not smooth... most times it is. I cannot figure out why sometimes I mess it up. Maybe I will have to just keep experimenting to figure it out, but I thought I would ask.

BR - I ALWAYS need schoolin wink.gif

I am fairly smooth most of the time... I just need to figure out this annoying little thing.

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I'm far from being an expert, but one thing I've learned during this t-mac while riding behind some MUCH faster guys, is to have very little if any weight on your but. 90% of your weight should be supported by your legs. That way the transition is much smoother as you "simply" shift from one leg to the other w/o having to shimmy your assets on the seat. This is only applicable in very rapid transitions and for a brief periods of time, after which my untrained legs were not cooperating any more. But, while they were, it was pretty smooth (by my standards). Body position as you have described.

Hope this makes sense.

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OK, I should have qualified this... I'm not hanging off like Jeremy or anything like that. I am nowhere near that level... Just moving my butt to one side of the seat or the other, getting my torso over the tank, and my head near the mirror that's on the inside of the turn. I am going through corners faster doing this, but when I move to the other side, sometimes it's not smooth... most times it is. I cannot figure out why sometimes I mess it up. Maybe I will have to just keep experimenting to figure it out, but I thought I would ask.

BR - I ALWAYS need schoolin wink.gif

I am fairly smooth most of the time... I just need to figure out this annoying little thing.

Sounds good, I would suggest not to focus on the butt movement part as that takes the most effort, muscle groups and time and if that timing is off so is the transition and smoothness. Really just forget worrying about you butt movement whatsoever, it will simplify your riding and ability to transition quicker on the street. :fing02:

It's almost a natural move when you move your upper body forward & down towards the inside mirror that your turn side butt cheek will be weighted as much as it needs w/o thought so forget about it!.

Again if your not looking as far forward as possible and if you ever focus on the outside edge of a turn you've screwed it up. That's every damn turn after turn. It only takes one time to let you vision focus right in front of the bike instead of through the turn and everything goes to shite and you 1000% more likely to drive off the road at your focus point.

I think it is that training of the brain & eyes to focus out as far as possible that is the single biggest factor in any riders advancement in riding ability. I get it right about 99% of the time, but the only times I've come close to crashing lately is during that failed 1% where I loose my vision focus. I can relate EVERY close call in a turn to this issue(not looking through the turn) it is the key to Smoothness, Speed, Safety and Survival. :biggrin:

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The keys to not messing up the bike during transitions are to keep your butt off the seat (as Rice said), you should be sliding over the seat, not sitting on it, all your weight should be on your legs. The other thing is you may be supporting weight on your arms, if so, when you move your body you will inadvertently counter steer the bike.

Another issue most people have when starting to hang off is they are crossed up, which eliminates the benefits of hanging off, while still adding the complexity. Make sure to concentrate on moving your upper body down and try to kiss your mirror. Keep your outside arm loose and rest it on the tank. Lean forward so your chest is near the tank. You can do this with your butt planted in the seat so you can work on one thing at a time.

Like Bailey said, the upper body position will probably do more for you than hanging off.

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Guest Pete McCrary

My 2¢ here:

I'm not a big believer in hanging off on the street. Shifting your body from side to side really upsets the bike. Maybe flick a knee out and a slight butt shift, but that's about it. One thing I have really concentrated on lately that seems to make a big difference (and I picked this up from the MotoGP guys) is staying low on the bike in the turns. In effect it does the same thing as hanging off. You hang off to move the CG of combined rider/motorcycle unit into a more desirable position. If you lower your torso in the turns, it will have a similar affect. Don't sit bolt up right in the turns with your arms stiff. Stay low so you're just looking over the mirrors and keep your arms bent and in tight. Press against the tank with your outside knee.

We all know about counter steering. It will blow your mind how much you can steer with your knees. Get on a good stretch of straight road. Get the bike up to speed and let go of the bars. Then as the bike is coasting down, take turns pressing against the tank side with one knee then the other. You'd be surprised how much you can move the bike around this way. Reg Pridmore teaches this so much that he says if the inside of your thighs are killing you after one of his schools you didn't do it right.

Proper cornering is no one thing. It's putting the whole package together. Each of us have our own unique "package" due to our sizes, body shapes, flexibility, etc. What works for one person may not work for another.

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Great tips above, everyone. Thanks for sharing them with us!

I never hang off the bike but do move my upper body a bit lower and inside the turn. It's rare for me to shift my butt around on the seat more than 6" or so, but when I do I try to get it done well before the turn, and then very quickly if there's a left-right or right-left transition.

Of course I am far from being an expert in this area, but the one thing I'd add is to make sure you're steady on the throttle during the transitional movements. (And I'm sure Will is doing that, so this is more for folks just starting to lean/hang while cornering.) The rear wheel will get squirrelly when you close the throttle as the bike checks up a bit (weight and traction moving mostly to the front wheel), especially if you're moving around much on top at the same time.

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I'm far from being an expert, but one thing I've learned during this t-mac while riding behind some MUCH faster guys, is to have very little if any weight on your but. 90% of your weight should be supported by your legs. That way the transition is much smoother as you "simply" shift from one leg to the other w/o having to shimmy your assets on the seat. This is only applicable in very rapid transitions and for a brief periods of time, after which my untrained legs were not cooperating any more. But, while they were, it was pretty smooth (by my standards). Body position as you have described.

Hope this makes sense.

I very much agree with carrying as much body weight with your legs as possible during quick left/right type transitions or really any quick turning. When I'm trying to haul butt, I'll do just that, press into both pegs unloading my butt. This feels like you've dropped 100 lbs of weight of the bike because it moves so much freer between your legs during quick transitions! :biggrin:

Little to no weight on your arms & wrist (because your legs & torso are carrying it) also helps tremendously in allowing you to FEEL the front and make softer/lighter inputs.

But again I think these are a little more advanced techniques and should follow the rider ability to "look thru the turn & CS" which I think are the basic two foundation blocks to skilled riding! :fing02:

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I gotta' go with learning to get your body weight and head out over the inside bar and mirror first, with weight on the inside peg, and fully looking through the turn...... :fing02: It really gets too complicated to start trying to do everything at once......... :fing02: Once you start getting smooth with these moves, you'll find yourself "instinctively" sliding around on the seat eventually. Getting your sight line, and upper body position right makes a fantastic cornering difference by themselves in quick, right, left, transitioning type twisty roads. After getting the position right, next step needs to be the timing of when to change position................2 cents from the "Old Slow Guy".............. :biggrin:

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I gotta' go with learning to get your body weight and head out over the inside bar and mirror first, with weight on the inside peg, and fully looking through the turn...... :fing02: It really gets too complicated to start trying to do everything at once......... :biggrin: Once you start getting smooth with these moves, you'll find yourself "instinctively" sliding around on the seat eventually. Getting your sight line, and upper body position right makes a fantastic cornering difference by themselves in quick, right, left, transitioning type twisty roads. After getting the position right, next step needs to be the timing of when to change position...

+1. When learning to lean off the bike, I started very gradually. But even then I couldn't believe the difference it made. I'll lean off a bit more now, but it took some courage and getting used to. And while I still don't lean off too much, it is starting to feel more natural to me.

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+1. When learning to lean off the bike, I started very gradually. But even then I couldn't believe the difference it made. I'll lean off a bit more now, but it took some courage and getting used to. And while I still don't lean off too much, it is starting to feel more natural to me.

Tim, do try to CS or just lean or both?

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I have enjoyed reading this thread!! :biggrin:

I really wish they had a motorcycle simulator!! Wouldn't that be FUN???

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Skuuter is a freak! :laugh:

....... :blink:......probably......... :blush:...you've caused us to disrupt a serious riding form thread......... :laugh:

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Guest HondaGuy86

:laugh: All this talk about cornering properly makes me think of how much fun it is to take the Viffer down twisty roads... and being stuck in Charlotte all summer w/o the Viffer is giving me withdrawals!! :laugh:

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Ditto on that your legs should be supporting the weight in these situations, if in the brief space and time you have ina switchback you're:

1. Lifting your weight off the seat

2. Shifting to the other side of the bike and planting your other cheek on the seat

3. Replacing the weight on said cheek.

...you will probably cause that wobbliness. It's all in the legs. If the transition from one corner to the next is less abrupt, you'll have plenty of time for the lazy man's version... otherwise... work those quadriceps!!!

Emmm... the term "butt movements" has me feeling a little queezy... :laugh:

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Ditto on that your legs should be supporting the weight in these situations, if in the brief space and time you have ina switchback you're:

1. Lifting your weight off the seat

2. Shifting to the other side of the bike and planting your other cheek on the seat

3. Replacing the weight on said cheek.

...you will probably cause that wobbliness. It's all in the legs. If the transition from one corner to the next is less abrupt, you'll have plenty of time for the lazy man's version... otherwise... work those quadriceps!!!

Emmm... the term "butt movements" has me feeling a little queezy... :laugh:

For street riding in Tennessee, carrying your weight on your legs on some roads really can wear you out. Some of these roads are tight transitions for miles. A good "road riding system" makes more sense than "road racing systems"............ :laugh:

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Wish I could help here. I feel like I'm hanging off the bike and I shift on the seat. But BR said to me at a T-mac stop, "you're like me on the street and do more leaning than hanging off." Works for me and I do ok. But there is a difference in what I'm actually doing and what it feels like I'm doing. :laugh:

I'll be in a good position to do some track schools in the next year or two. :laugh:

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The keys to not messing up the bike during transitions are to keep your butt off the seat (as Rice said), you should be sliding over the seat, not sitting on it, all your weight should be on your legs. The other thing is you may be supporting weight on your arms, if so, when you move your body you will inadvertently counter steer the bike.

Another issue most people have when starting to hang off is they are crossed up, which eliminates the benefits of hanging off, while still adding the complexity. Make sure to concentrate on moving your upper body down and try to kiss your mirror. Keep your outside arm loose and rest it on the tank. Lean forward so your chest is near the tank. You can do this with your butt planted in the seat so you can work on one thing at a time.

Like Bailey said, the upper body position will probably do more for you than hanging off.

Exactly what I was going to say.

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OK, I should have qualified this... I'm not hanging off like Jeremy or anything like that. I am nowhere near that level... Just moving my butt to one side of the seat or the other, getting my torso over the tank, and my head near the mirror that's on the inside of the turn. I am going through corners faster doing this, but when I move to the other side, sometimes it's not smooth... most times it is. I cannot figure out why sometimes I mess it up. Maybe I will have to just keep experimenting to figure it out, but I thought I would ask.

BR - I ALWAYS need schoolin wink.gif

I am fairly smooth most of the time... I just need to figure out this annoying little thing.

Counter steering is always the key. But when I started riding faster I never felt my body was positioned just right so there would be some odd feel during transition. To smooth this out and make consistent transitions I began to use Jason Pridmore body steering techniques. Weighting the inside peg and pressing my outside knee into the tank as if trying to help the bike turn in. I think this creates an consistant body position to control the bike and not feed any monkey motion into the steering inputs. I pretty much just slide to one side with no thought of putting a knee down. Okay sometimes i think about it. But again, counter steering and trusting you tires is the key. :laugh: laguna.gif
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Another countersteering "fact".........I know this primarily addresses VFRs and riding bikes leaning toward sport types, but in case someone owns more than one type bike, or thinking of owning another type.........

Cruisers, Gold Wings, etc., that place you in a fully upright riding position with a tendency to "plant" you in a seat closer to the rear wheel of the bike, feet farther forward, require the use of lots of countersteering as the primary tool for transitioning tight twisties. The longer wheelbases, and more relaxed fork rakes also, to some degree add to countersteering importance.

Choppers (Oh no, not "THOSE" things... tongue.gif ) put you in a situation that almost entirely reduces you to countersteering being your only "tool for twisties", requiring a lot of countersteering input, for a small amount of gain......... :laugh:

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In full agreement: for street riding, there is usually no need for hanging off the bike. Upper body lean, a little countersteering and perhaps a slight butt shuffle across should suffice.

I believe however that the original enquiry was about the wobble when he does feel the need to hang off and is doing so through s-bends... I'm not condoning hooligan riding styles and knee-scraping in town or on commuting slabs... just addressing his enquiry in the purest sense of his uncertainties... if he is going to hang off... it's all in the legs. Both Jeremy and BR explain this in greater detail than I well before my post.

We've all been on twisty mountain roads where hanging off is commonly practiced and most of you VFRD veterans can be seen doing so in the MC meet pics posted up around here... at least on the more spirited rides... this doesn't mean to say that we're all hot heads and squids, but occassionaly and in the right circumstances we like to test our metal...

I for one have never put a knee down, never scraped a knee pad, 'cause I don't even have leathers... I have two textile suits.

Edited by Auspañol
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