Member Contributer canib Posted March 11, 2008 Member Contributer Share Posted March 11, 2008 That's awesome. I'm all for experimentation, you just have to be ready to hear from people who don't like change or don't understand what you're trying to do. There's no valid reason not to try something new, as long as you aren't hurting someone. If it weren't for inovation we wouldn't be riding VFRs I wouldn't gut my performance tourer for a battery scoot, but I wouldn't mind owning an alternate fuel something someday. Keep up the good work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frodus Posted March 12, 2008 Author Share Posted March 12, 2008 That's awesome. I'm all for experimentation, you just have to be ready to hear from people who don't like change or don't understand what you're trying to do. There's no valid reason not to try something new, as long as you aren't hurting someone. If it weren't for inovation we wouldn't be riding VFRs Keep up the good work! I was ready when I posted, I know how forums are... I just figured out of the people that do read, maybe 5% would be interested... I love projects and follow others doing theirs... and if I had seen this type of project before, I might have been inclined to do it myself... oh wait... I did.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Polarbear Posted March 12, 2008 Member Contributer Share Posted March 12, 2008 Hey, Great idea, what a wonderful thing if we could use bikes that are quiet. :thumbsup: I like my vfr with the TwoBros exhaust, but you can't beat a quiet bike. Do you think that this project is realistic for a company to consider for mass production? I mean is there any of your components hat would be just too hard to find/produce, or too heavy for production? I really know nothing about all this, but I sure like the concept. Speaking of which, what's that next project you'll be working on? Will it be a "better" electric bike? Just curious... Way to go though, I love the idea! Let us know when it's finished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frodus Posted March 12, 2008 Author Share Posted March 12, 2008 Hey,Great idea, what a wonderful thing if we could use bikes that are quiet. :thumbsup: I like my vfr with the TwoBros exhaust, but you can't beat a quiet bike. Do you think that this project is realistic for a company to consider for mass production? I mean is there any of your components hat would be just too hard to find/produce, or too heavy for production? I really know nothing about all this, but I sure like the concept. Speaking of which, what's that next project you'll be working on? Will it be a "better" electric bike? Just curious... Way to go though, I love the idea! Let us know when it's finished. all the parts are off the shelf, controller, batteries, contactor, DC-DC converter, cable, gauges... some of the controls and monitoring and battery management need development, but there's stuff out there. Next project... a drag bike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer magellan Posted March 12, 2008 Member Contributer Share Posted March 12, 2008 all the parts are off the shelf, controller, batteries, contactor, DC-DC converter, cable, gauges... If only someone would sell us a hundred complete bikes sans engine and fuel systems, we could build these all day long. Electric Motorsport did until Piaggio stopped selling Derbi MCs in North America. There's a lot of room for improvement over what these guys have been selling, though. For example, the motor Travis is using would stomp the one in the Electric GPR sold by Electric Motorsport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frodus Posted March 12, 2008 Author Share Posted March 12, 2008 well, alot of their new conversions are using a really nice AC motor... full regen, 80ftlbs of torque and 25hp (doesn't sound like alot, but its a flat power curve).... couple that with LiPo, and you're scootin. The original DC motor was good, but mine would stomp it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest vfrrider Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 Following this with great relish (a little mustard too). Thought about a similar project, trying to duplicate the Suzuki Nuda, 2 AC motors in the wheels, with full regen and batteries in the center, easy controls, SSS front and rear. Just waiting on battery density to get a little higher so I can go comfortably back and forth to work, say 100 miles on a single charge with no worries, power to spare at 100. Charger in the tail, plug in and leave. Maybe even a fold out solar charger for all day long here in Texas. Gets closer to possible everyday. Just like I need another project. But in the future. Larry VFRrider Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest viperpilot Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 A coworker did the same conversion to an RZ350. Until he retired recently, he frequently rode it the 12 miles to work and plugged it in when he got here. (The company is required by law to provide him with an accessible outlet to plug his bike into.) He had the range up to 60 miles on one charge the last time I spoke with him. He frequently scares the crap out of joggers as he passes by them (not intentionally, of course). http://electricmotorcycles.net/modules/wordpress/?p=248 Best of luck with your project! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frodus Posted March 12, 2008 Author Share Posted March 12, 2008 viperpilot.... thats one of the bikes that inspired me.... he did a great job on the conversion, nice and clean install. I'm a fairing guy though... and since I got uppers from Airtech (no headlight holes) and lowers from Chuck Crites, I might actually get some help from a guy I know with making them even MORE aerodynamic, since I don't need engine vents/intakes. But I hear you (and everyone else) on the range. LiFePo is within reach. Within a couple years, and all the machinery/process is outlined for producing batteries in mass, we'll see 100Ah LiFePo batteries with built in balancing available. just think, with ~35Ah, and a 400lb bike at 72V, most guys get around 15-20. you would likely quadruple that if you went 100Ah because of the weight savings, plus, you could put more batteries in the lead battery's place... and extend range even more. Its coming, has been for the last couple years, just look at the RC Industry and LiPo batteries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer AvalonRacing Posted March 12, 2008 Member Contributer Share Posted March 12, 2008 A coworker did the same conversion to an RZ350. Until he retired recently, he frequently rode it the 12 miles to work and plugged it in when he got here. (The company is required by law to provide him with an accessible outlet to plug his bike into.) He had the range up to 60 miles on one charge the last time I spoke with him. He frequently scares the crap out of joggers as he passes by them (not intentionally, of course). http://electricmotorcycles.net/modules/wordpress/?p=248 Best of luck with your project! I'm glad that people are doing this with all my favorite bikes! (VFR RZ350) Although with those skinny tires the RZ must get mistaken for a moped when it goes by without the 2 stroke buzz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer tyrroneous Posted March 12, 2008 Member Contributer Share Posted March 12, 2008 I'm trying to pick sprockets and think I'll go with a 4:1 ratio. Some guys with eteks/perm132 go 5:1 up to 7:1. Other guys with smaller ADC motors go anywhere from 3.5:1 to 4.5:1. My motor is larger with more power, so 4:1 should be just right. I'm changing from 530 chain (#50) to #40 chain to make it more quiet. Sprocketspecialists have sprockets for me for under $100, and surpluscenter.com has sprockets and nickel chain. Cool project. I'll be interested to see how it turns out. By any chance, have you thought about going to a belt drive instead of a chain? That would really keep your noise level down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frodus Posted March 12, 2008 Author Share Posted March 12, 2008 I'm trying to pick sprockets and think I'll go with a 4:1 ratio. Some guys with eteks/perm132 go 5:1 up to 7:1. Other guys with smaller ADC motors go anywhere from 3.5:1 to 4.5:1. My motor is larger with more power, so 4:1 should be just right. I'm changing from 530 chain (#50) to #40 chain to make it more quiet. Sprocketspecialists have sprockets for me for under $100, and surpluscenter.com has sprockets and nickel chain. Cool project. I'll be interested to see how it turns out. By any chance, have you thought about going to a belt drive instead of a chain? That would really keep your noise level down. yeah, thought about it, wanted to do it, but I'd have to take the whole rear suspension off just to replace the belt, even if I tried to have guide pulleys and had the belt come in on the top of the swingarm, it'd be tough, and would change the Center of gravity raising the 60lb motor. I've thought about alot of design ideas, ranging from doing a 144V pack, to putting in a CVT like they have on snowmobiles all the way to hub motors, AC motors/controllers, .... and as Loni mentioned, having a removable "generator" around 1.5kW or less for extended trips. Once I started thinking about all of those, I realized, its far better to get a running mechanical system to tune the electrical with in the beginning, than it is to get a mechanical system working without knowing the limitations of the electrical. Once I have the mechanical down, I can change out motors and controllers and batteries all day. In fact, I'm trying to go AC in the end. Synkromotive has a 250A 3phase AC controller for BLDC motors... its just on pause while we work on the 600A DC. Once I go AC, I'll likely never go back to a DC motor/controller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scout18 Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 Fantastic Project. I live in Portland and would love to see this when it is done or before. My vision is along the lines of the hybrid diesel/electric drive but battery drive is great. I too am surprised at the bashing and myopia that has surfaced here. Must be akin to the love of under seat exhaust. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frodus Posted March 12, 2008 Author Share Posted March 12, 2008 Fantastic Project. I live in Portland and would love to see this when it is done or before. My vision is along the lines of the hybrid diesel/electric drive but battery drive is great. I too am surprised at the bashing and myopia that has surfaced here. Must be akin to the love of under seat exhaust. LOL Actually I've gotten better feedback than expected... PM me and I'll give you my number... come check it out anytime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer magellan Posted April 26, 2008 Member Contributer Share Posted April 26, 2008 We've made some great progress. Travis gave me permission to update the thread, so I'll post up a link to his pics and the link to his site in addition to the pics posted here. It's no small task to find a motor of sufficient output that fits between the frame rails, clears the swingarm once sprockets and chain are in place, and mounts to the existing frame with little modification. The strange thing here is that the '86 frame seems custom-made to accept this motor. All we had to do was grab some 3/8" aluminum plate and cut it to fit the available space, then mount it up with bushings to minimize resonance from the chain-drive through the main frame. Early plate fab: Rough Layout.jpg Then we removed excess material and cleaned up the edges. The motor face plate is attached to the back plate with seven stainless hex-drive bolts, so it won't be going anywhere! Mounting Plates Done.jpg Plenty of clearance top and bottom of the swingarm: Swingarm Clearance.jpg Mounted up: Motor in the Bike.jpg And Travis with his dream bike... Proud Owner.jpg Next week we'll get the battery trays installed, and within another week of that we'll be road testing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JES_VFR Posted April 27, 2008 Share Posted April 27, 2008 NOOOOOOO!! Not A VFR!!!!!! AAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! <stifle emotion> Okay, I really really don't like that you used a VFR for this but it is done. Now do not give up on the electric bike, I think that you are doing great and have put a lot of effort in the planning and design. You are approaching this as a system, not just a "RG" conversion. I agree that we as a nation need to break way from our gas dependency. And I believe that we all have to do something very extreme when it comes to resolving issues of emmissions. But I cannot agree that this vehicle is going to be a ZEV. Yeah its electric, but where and how is the electricity generated. Around here its generated by burning gas or coal to drive the generators, there is no hydro power nor is there a serious nuclear presence here. I this area that bike would just be a remote polluter. Keep at it though, Make it work!!. I'm going to investigate another alternate fuel source tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer magellan Posted April 28, 2008 Member Contributer Share Posted April 28, 2008 just be a remote polluter. I've heard this argument repeated too many times, and it's imperative that people realize how short-sighted it is. Coal-fired power plants need to be replaced with renewable sources. The U.S. power grid needs an overhaul. Storage of DC electricity (generated by wind and solar) at sub-stations within the grid needs to become widespread. The technology is already here, but the political will is lacking. Think of it this way: Sucking the last drop of petrol from the ground so we can continue to pollute with 50 million cars is much less palatable than moving pollution production to a single site while we work out how to clean up the power plant. I imagine a mixed solution. EVs for commuting/city use, and plug-in hybrids for long trips. Urban air pollution would plummet to a tiny fraction of what it is now while eventually even our power plants become non-polluting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JES_VFR Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 just be a remote polluter. I've heard this argument repeated too many times, and it's imperative that people realize how short-sighted it is. Coal-fired power plants need to be replaced with renewable sources. The U.S. power grid needs an overhaul. Storage of DC electricity (generated by wind and solar) at sub-stations within the grid needs to become widespread. The technology is already here, but the political will is lacking. Think of it this way: Sucking the last drop of petrol from the ground so we can continue to pollute with 50 million cars is much less palatable than moving pollution production to a single site while we work out how to clean up the power plant. I imagine a mixed solution. EVs for commuting/city use, and plug-in hybrids for long trips. Urban air pollution would plummet to a tiny fraction of what it is now while eventually even our power plants become non-polluting. Hey don't get me wrong, we very much need to resolve our electric generation issues. Coal and natural gas plants need to be replaced with other sources. My only point was that until they are, even this bike will not be a ZEV, The pollution will just occur external to the bike. There are too many scaredy cats when it comes to Nuclear power plants, but that is only because of the problems with the current system. I remember the Three Mile Island incident, since I pretty much grew up downstream, yet I later realized that there were three other plants in the area that operated without any known problems. I guess what I disagree with you on the issue of what should come first clean electric generation or electric powered vehicles to use it. Yeah sure we could built all these great ev cars, trucks, buses and bikes, only to choke to death on the coal fired plants smog. This is just another example of the infrastructure issue that the next transportation fuel source will have to overcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEBSPEED Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 Not to mention, knowing the nature of this country, what do you think is going to quadruple(or more) in price once we -as a whole nation- decide to switch to E-vehicles instead of gas? That's right, electricity. Leave it to a few greedy people to ruin a good thing for millions. Sorry to sound pessimistic, but please try to convince me otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer magellan Posted April 30, 2008 Member Contributer Share Posted April 30, 2008 Not to mention, knowing the nature of this country, what do you think is going to quadruple(or more) in price once we -as a whole nation- decide to switch to E-vehicles instead of gas? That's right, electricity. Leave it to a few greedy people to ruin a good thing for millions. Sorry to sound pessimistic, but please try to convince me otherwise. That is certainly a possibility in the foreseeable future, but not for a good while, and only if we let it happen. In fact, now is the time to get in on all of the rebates and incentives that make the cost of a solar electricity and water heating installation (or windmill if you have the wind and available land) worthwhile. With a large array you have all the power you need for your home and sell the excess back to the grid. California has an initiative to put solar panels on every rooftop, though Germany (yes, cloudy Germany) currently leads the world in solar infrastructure. Clean power is already available. We just have to go get it. Here in Washington State, many landowners are installing windmills, and there are vast areas of the state with such constant wind that the windmills pay for themselves within a few years and then make the owner money forever after. I don't have that kind of land, but it would be pretty cool... The problem with the grid to date is that inconsistently generated energy from tides and wind has nowhere to go. One of the big pushes is to develop efficient battery installations to accept the incoming current and store it so the power can be metered out at a controlled rate. Already, testing of multiple solutions is meeting with great success, which will encourage use of even more wind, solar, tidal, geothermal, and energy. All we need is the public will to encourage diverse sources of clean generation. Unfortunately, other countries are already way ahead of us.Convinced yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enzed_viffer Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 In fact, now is the time to get in on all of the rebates and incentives that make the cost of a solar electricity and water heating installation (or windmill if you have the wind and available land) worthwhile. With a large array you have all the power you need for your home and sell the excess back to the grid. California has an initiative to put solar panels on every rooftop, though Germany (yes, cloudy Germany) currently leads the world in solar infrastructure. Clean power is already available. We just have to go get it. I need to check the veracity of this out for myself, but according to my [electronics/technology expert] son, solar panel technology is actually not good with respect to the whole global climate change / energy conservation saga. He told me that your average solar panel takes up to 9 times the energy to produce that it actually returns during its lifetime. They are horrendously inefficient at the moment, but improving slowly as pressure comes on to find alternatives to fossil fuel derived energy sources. I liked a comment in the paper here in respect to some lame-ass, ill-considered 'energy conservation' proposal: "CO2 emissions would be reduced more by the people concerned holding their breath for one minute". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer magellan Posted May 1, 2008 Member Contributer Share Posted May 1, 2008 He told me that your average solar panel takes up to 9 times the energy to produce that it actually returns during its lifetime. They are horrendously inefficient at the moment, but improving slowly as pressure comes on to find alternatives to fossil fuel derived energy sources. Your son got hold of old and severely exaggerated information. From Wikipedia, citing this source: :fing02: Solar cells and energy payback In the 1990s, when silicon cells were twice as thick, efficiencies were 30% lower than today and lifetimes were shorter, it may well have cost more energy to make a cell than it could generate in a lifetime. In the meantime, the technology has progressed significantly, and the energy payback time of a modern photovoltaic module is typically from 1 to 4 years depending on the type and where it is used (see net energy gain). With a typical lifetime of 20 to 30 years, this means that modern solar cells are net energy producers, i.e they generate much more energy over their lifetime than the energy expended in producing them. Photovoltaics are great and only getting better. I will now hold my breath for one minute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frodus Posted May 2, 2008 Author Share Posted May 2, 2008 WOW, lots of new posts.... As far as using the VFR, I got one for free that was a basket case and 85k+ miles, needed lots of work. I found another non-running bike in florida, had engine problems, rusted tank, carbs needed rebuild, but it was only $400, no title. I put alot of effort into finding a chassis only, and sold the parts to VFR owners that needed engine parts, exhaust, electrical. So, I took TWO non-running basket cases and parted out the things I didn't need so that others could get theirs running. I also didn't want some ugly ass cruiser, I wanted a sport bike, but without spending $5k on a newer rolling chassis. Long and short of it, They ended up both being free.... but getting them both rolling was another story. I had to get plenty of parts for the first one just to get it so it would roll (frozen brakes, rear shock was shot, front forks were pretty badly corroded and leaking, rusted subframes on front and back...etc). As far as the ZEV aspect, It might not start out zero (take into acount manufacturing motor, controller, batteries...etc), how its charged (via socket), and what machine work was needed to convert... no, it is not, nor will any vehicle ever be a ZEV, its a fabled creature. Now, if you want to talk about ZEV AFTER building it, That is my plan, to invest in some solar panels and charge at home. Efficiencies are increasing, cost is coming down, and they're more affordable per watt of power than ever before. Its only getting better. I could also add a 1000-2000W wind generator for cheap. http://www.energy.gov/energysources/electricpower.htm even natural gas is increasing, and its cleaner burning than coal, which has a TOTAL US use of 57%+, but they're also adding on cogen that use the exhaust from the turbines to put back into the system, cleaning up the output, and making them more efficient. 90% of the power generation facilities will be Natural gas and use cogen. I worked at GE Energy in Salem, VA, and know for a FACT that Wind and Natural gas turbines are their main source for power for its generators. Technology is catching up, but MOST of the citizens in the US don't realize, Coal is cleaner burning than most fuel efficient cars. Natural gas is almost clean, nuclear is clean except for the waste, water has only environmental impact, solar is clean (after manufactured) and wind is clean and has low environmental impact (subsonic frequencies). But even better, is that at today's prices I'll be getting right around 2 cents a mile economy, charge anywhere and be able to generate my own power. compared with 10-20 cents a mile (20-40mpg), having to full up at a gas station, and inability to make my own fuel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frodus Posted May 2, 2008 Author Share Posted May 2, 2008 http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/05/02/pl...e-and-problems/ http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB120...ff_main_tff_top both sides of stuff, yes there are issues, but as a whole, we need to do SOMETHING... even if electricity is that "something". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frodus Posted May 7, 2008 Author Share Posted May 7, 2008 Here's a video of the rear wheel spinning.... just a 12V battery, nothing special yet.... Last night Loni and I beefed up the motor mount, Once I get things all buttoned down, I'll take some more pictures, it was too late last night. Next step, figuring out what we're going to do about mounting batteries. Video: and some pictures: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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