Member Contributer VolatileVFR Posted February 22, 2008 Member Contributer Share Posted February 22, 2008 Whew.... What an interesting couple of weeks it has been. I have been digging into the books and working full time, leaving me with no time at all update myself on current VFRd happenings. I see I have missed many cool Slammer blogs, and some of the regular "what kinda oil/ what helmet is best/ and the best tire" threads as usual... However, now, I could use the wisdom of the list to figure an interesting problem out... Here we go: I decided to make a quick run approximately 5 miles down the road to Target to get a couple small items that would fir comfortably in the trunk of my smuggler. I pull away from Target, and within 1/2 a mile at the first light, I roll to a stop. I accidentally beep the horn, and my bike DIES. Fast forward to the next day. I failed to even notice the previous night that my fuel pump was not even priming (I didnt spend any time on the bike that previous night though). So, off I go to testing my fuel pump lines... 1. Fuel pump IS NOT receiving power... Whew.. don't have to replace the fuel pump today. 2. All fuses look great (with exception to the second 30 A. main fuse that I cannot find-- ?? not the problem, but just can't find it) 3. Relay time: A. Engine stop relay tests good (I am strictly applying power to the coil and listening for the activation/click of the switch) B. Fuel cut Relay test good 4. Crap! The front upper cowl has to come off... Bank angle sensor time.... ok, here lies a problem with regards to the manual. --Manual says within the three post connector leading to the bank angle sensor (BAS), you have one ground, a positive coming from the ignition switch from the (+) battery via fuses, and the third post leading to the engine stop relay that will power the coil which will in turn power the relay switch, and provide power for the fuel pump. BAS sensor.. -- MANUAL: ground ---> positive = Normal BAtt. voltage ground ---> 3rd post engine stop relay= 0-1 V Both of these WITH ignition ON. Therefore, I assume since the third post of the connector is NOT norm voltage, the engine stop relay MUST be normally closed so the fuel pump can receive current.. Right?!?! Well, testing showed opposite: -- Testing: ground -->positive = Normal batt. voltage ground -->relay = Normal batt Voltage Therefore the relay IS being powered via the coil and therefore the switch SHOULD be thrown. hmmmm... The relay tested good, therefore the switch works properly. PROBLEM: Relay says the following: 12 V NO .... with the typical relay diagram drawn. engine stop relay ok.. Confusion sets in. If I am allowing current to go to the relay, the Normally open relay should be closing, thus providing current to the fuel pump. That makes sense to me... What am I missing? I have bypassed the BAS sensor by shorting across the engine stop relay and CAN crank my 5th gen. errr.. CAN power the fuel pump. I DID check out my switches as well, and to the best of my knowledge, both the ignition switch AND the engine stop switch tested out good. Short across the relay to bypass BAS BAS technical data: The BAS is made up of a latch-up circuit, and NPN transistor, a lead switch and a magnet based on degree angle of the sensor. Any pics of diagrams that may provide to be useful can be taken and posted ASAP. Any ideas? I think I have provided needed info.. Additional thoughts that have nothing to do with the previously stated problem: WOOHOO!! -I custom painted my wheels a gold with a bronze hue custom made up by myself. rear 8-spoker and stock front. -I painted my rotors black and cleared.. as seen in my gallery, however, since then, I stripped and repainted again to have a better and smoother clear coat and base. -I painted my fork bottoms black and cleared. -I installed a new Fuel pressure regulator ... turbocity.. -New oil change -New super bright blue LEDs on dash -New pilot power rubber mounted and balanced with my MArc PArnes with extreme care on my newly painted wheels -cleaned and re-oiled my K&N Think that is it... since putting it all together, had a slight problem with restarting... Not sure how much the FPR aids in this problem, if any. WIth my 5th gen, I had to take the throttle body off in order to loosen the fuel rails so I could take the stock FPR off and install the new one (why? because the choke valves do not allow me to unscrew the FPR from the fuel rail unless--ptooey..coulda been an easy job!) Still VERY nervous about putting it on the road and having a problem. So, need to figure out this fuel pump power problem before I go on to this next problem. The fuel return tube on the bottom of the FPR does not screw past the choke valves The new BAT sensor from servicehonda is showing $61 + shipping. MOre info wil be posted as I remember what could be useful to the list... Thanks to all... gold/bronze wheels IMGP0929_resize.JPG IMGP0928_resize.JPG IMGP0926_resize.JPG IMGP0879_resize.JPG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer VolatileVFR Posted February 22, 2008 Author Member Contributer Share Posted February 22, 2008 Woohoo!! Thansk Dan!! PAIR block off plates on the way!! Another sumpin' for Katsumoto.. my 5th gen... :thumbsup: FOr all you electricians out there, if there is some good way to test the BAS, that would be great!! The transistor is what I would love to test somehow.. searching the ole' google now.. showing some methods via the ohmmeter... Thanks all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer toro1 Posted February 22, 2008 Member Contributer Share Posted February 22, 2008 Mike, I had a very similar problem when I was trying to get my bike up and running. You can read about it here. Turns out, when I removed the throttle body, I forgot to plug the wiring harness back in, which in turn somehow affected the operation of the fuel pump. Before you go any further, go back and double check to make sure everything is plugged in. I felt like an idiot after spending 2 days wondering why I couldn't get my fuel pump to prime. Also, if your bike died after using the horn, that sounds like an issue to me. Something very well might be shorting itself out (when I rotated my controls down, I kept blowing fuses -- turned out the brake light switch was making contact with the fork due to the extra rotation). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer VolatileVFR Posted February 23, 2008 Author Member Contributer Share Posted February 23, 2008 Will do Dan.... I KNOW I reconnected the throttle body connector.. However, I think I may have failed to mention that after shorting across the engine stop relay, I can power my fuel pump and crank the bike. It DOES seem like I need more and more fuel to keep it running.. that at least was the initial findings. It seems to crank easily now, but if I pull the choke back 100%, it will only directly feed gas it seems from the 30%-75% choke distance. The initial 30% is due to a little play in the choke cable, but at that mark, I can see the choke bracket attached to the throttle body start to feed more gas. BUt, even after the approximate 75% mark, even after I keep pulling the choke farther (or actually actuating the bracket manually---the same bracket as pictured above with the FPR next to it) it does not seem to WANT more gas... Could be regular actions, but odd to me... But, going back to check all connections.. sheesh.. there are quite a few... Mike, I had a very similar problem when I was trying to get my bike up and running. You can read about it here. Turns out, when I removed the throttle body, I forgot to plug the wiring harness back in, which in turn somehow affected the operation of the fuel pump.Before you go any further, go back and double check to make sure everything is plugged in. I felt like an idiot after spending 2 days wondering why I couldn't get my fuel pump to prime. Also, if your bike died after using the horn, that sounds like an issue to me. Something very well might be shorting itself out (when I rotated my controls down, I kept blowing fuses -- turned out the brake light switch was making contact with the fork due to the extra rotation). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veefer Madness Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 PROBLEM: Relay says the followinG: 12 V NO .... with the typical relay diagram drawn. engine stop relay Any ideas? I think I have provided needed info.. A picture's worth a THOUSAND words.... :thumbsup: Your problem is staring right at you! :rolleyes: Just rub out the word NO and replace it with YES!!!!!! :goofy: Welcome baaaaaaaaaaaaack!!! <_< :P WOOHOO!! VERY SWEET LOOKING WHEEL PAINT!!!!!! :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEBSPEED Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 Welcome back buddy! Looks like you got some nice garage space! Electrics are my weakest point(soon to change, always learning!), so I can't offer much help other than to say that I have a bunch of bank angle sensors sitting around, and if you want/need one, its yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer VolatileVFR Posted February 23, 2008 Author Member Contributer Share Posted February 23, 2008 HAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!! Love that one Veefer!!! !#$@!$% I should have seen that right away.. I am gonna go outside and yell at my relay until it says YES on the front!! hehe... PS.. that is a terrible pic of the wheel paint too... that is poor lighting under poor garage light with the garage door open in rainy weather.. JUST WAIT till the fairings come on and I get some good shots in natural light.. So far, the pics do this color NO good.. I am loving it!!! and I love that I painted it myself!! That is, with the help of Daniel (Bejbis) .... Wooot!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer VolatileVFR Posted February 23, 2008 Author Member Contributer Share Posted February 23, 2008 Welcome back buddy! Looks like you got some nice garage space!Electrics are my weakest point(soon to change, always learning!), so I can't offer much help other than to say that I have a bunch of bank angle sensors sitting around, and if you want/need one, its yours. The only thing that could REALLY help me out is if SOMEONE has their upper cowl removed, if they will check some Voltages for me... As stated before, there are three pins on the connector.. If there is a handy soul out there that can make sure that between ground and positive, there is normal voltage, and more importantly that between the ground and outer third pin that the voltage with the ignition ON, is between 0-1 V... That would alleviate MANY problems I think... UNLESS.... that electrician in the crowd can give me some good advice on how to test a transistor/my BAS..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer CitizenOfDreams Posted February 23, 2008 Member Contributer Share Posted February 23, 2008 Reposting my reply in this thread (since the other one will probably be pruned). Here is how I would troubleshoot this situation. Test number one. Pull out the fuel cut relay. Measure the voltage between ground and point A. With ignition on and the stop switch in "RUN" position, it should read 12 volts. If you get that, stop messing with bank angle sensor and engine stop relay. They are fine. If you don't get 12 volts, fix your bank angle sensor, engine stop relay, fuse or wiring. Test number two, after you pass test number one. Leave the fuel cut relay out. Put a jumper between point A and point B With ignition on and stop switch in "RUN" position, the pump should run continuously. If it does not, fix the fuel pump or its wiring until it runs. Test number three, after you pass tests one and two. Put the fuel cut relay back in the socket. Put a jumper between point C and ground. With ignition on and stop switch in "RUN" position, the pump should run continuously. If it does not, replace the fuel cut relay or fix the wiring until it runs. If the bike passes all three tests, yet the pump does not run when it should - you have a bad ECM or bad wiring between the ECM and the fuel cut relay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer VolatileVFR Posted February 23, 2008 Author Member Contributer Share Posted February 23, 2008 Ok... little looking over revealed nothing new... All connectors seem to be in place. Vacuum hoses seem perfectly matched.. It starts relatively easily.. One thing it did was the following: I had it idling for a decent time, turned it off, talked to a buddy for a few, then tried to crank it after he left.. hmm.. full choke?? not even.. had to give it gas and "get it going".. then ran relatively smoothly.. Perhaps I should test the fuel pressure to make sure this TurboCity FPR I received is not faulty... Seriously doubt that though... Question: Have the BAS disconnected; have the sensors (with exception to MAP) disconnected from air cleaner housing, since I have the housing uninstalled; have PAIR tubes taken off (for the hell of it, I sealed the front PAIR tube to see how it ran wiht the front PAIR blocked).... With these sensors and random disconnections, it does run fine.. HOWEVER.. 2 questions: 1. Does the PAIR system being blocked decrease the amount of air being delivered TO the engine? Why I ask? At idle, lets assume the engine is sitting at 1300 RPM. With just the front tube blocked off, the idle decreases by a small but noticeable amount. I have been under the assumption the PAIR strictly takes fresh air and delivers to unburnt fuel in the exhaust.. That should not affect engine RPM should it? hmmm 2. With these sensors and engine stop relay disconnected and the engine stop relay shorted to power the fuel pump, I cannot seem to check codes on the FI light.. thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer VolatileVFR Posted February 23, 2008 Author Member Contributer Share Posted February 23, 2008 Reposting my reply in this thread (since the other one will probably be pruned). Here is how I would troubleshoot this situation. Test number one. Pull out the fuel cut relay. Measure the voltage between ground and point A. With ignition on and the stop switch in "RUN" position, it should read 12 volts. If you get that, stop messing with bank angle sensor and engine stop relay. They are fine. If you don't get 12 volts, fix your bank angle sensor, engine stop relay, fuse or wiring. Test number two, after you pass test number one. Leave the fuel cut relay out. Put a jumper between point A and point B With ignition on and stop switch in "RUN" position, the pump should run continuously. If it does not, fix the fuel pump or its wiring until it runs. Test number three, after you pass tests one and two. Put the fuel cut relay back in the socket. Put a jumper between point C and ground. With ignition on and stop switch in "RUN" position, the pump should run continuously. If it does not, replace the fuel cut relay or fix the wiring until it runs. If the bike passes all three tests, yet the pump does not run when it should - you have a bad ECM or bad wiring between the ECM and the fuel cut relay. Hmm.. that is nice troubleshooting Citizen. Although very well put together, I think my current setup knocks perhaps at least one out... Current: 1. Shorted across Points A and B (as according to your labeling above) on the engine stop relay. 2. NO bank angle sensor even mounted (being bypassed) 3..... continuous fuel pump action. Therefore, that rules out fuel cut relay and fuel pump... Correct? hat should also in effect rule out ECM... correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer VolatileVFR Posted February 23, 2008 Author Member Contributer Share Posted February 23, 2008 Hmmmm... maybe I should check my engine stop switch again... but, that does does not explain the voltages I was reading on the bank angle sensor as per the Honda manual.... hmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer CitizenOfDreams Posted February 23, 2008 Member Contributer Share Posted February 23, 2008 1. Shorted across Points A and B (as according to your labeling above) on the engine stop relay. 2. NO bank angle sensor even mounted (being bypassed) 3..... continuous fuel pump action. Therefore, that rules out fuel cut relay and fuel pump... Correct? hat should also in effect rule out ECM... correct? That rules out engine stop relay and fuel pump. Fuel cut relay or ECM may still be bad (they are both bypassed in the above test). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer VolatileVFR Posted February 23, 2008 Author Member Contributer Share Posted February 23, 2008 That rules out engine stop relay and fuel pump. Fuel cut relay or ECM may still be bad (they are both bypassed in the above test). Hmmm.. maybe I am confusing myself, but if I short the Engine stop relay, then due to the fact that the fuel pump is powered and working, that would rule out the fuel cut relay... Current runs from (+) battery terminal, through a 30 A fuse, a 20 A sub-fuse, through the shorted engine stop switch.. from here, it goes straight to the fuel cut relay (which HAS to be closed if the fuel pump is to receive power), then to the fuel pump.. Due to the fuel pump receiving current, the fuel cut relay is being closed via the ground off the fuel pump and the current from the engine stop relay.... What am I missing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer CitizenOfDreams Posted February 23, 2008 Member Contributer Share Posted February 23, 2008 Hmmm.. maybe I am confusing myself, but if I short the Engine stop relay, then due to the fact that the fuel pump is powered and working, that would rule out the fuel cut relay... Current runs from (+) battery terminal, through a 30 A fuse, a 20 A sub-fuse, through the shorted engine stop switch.. from here, it goes straight to the fuel cut relay (which HAS to be closed if the fuel pump is to receive power), then to the fuel pump.. Due to the fuel pump receiving current, the fuel cut relay is being closed via the ground off the fuel pump and the current from the engine stop relay....What am I missing? Sorry, I did not read your post right. So, you were shorting between points A and B on the ENGINE STOP relay and the pump ran, right? Then yes, the fuel cut relay and the ECM are good. Next question: does the engine stop relay click when you plug it in with the ignition turned on? If it does click, yet the pump does not run - replace the engine stop relay, it's bad. Yes, a bad relay may still click. If it does not click - bad bank angle sensor, stop switch, 10A sub fuse or wiring. You can bypass the bank angle sensor by shorting its terminals #1 and #3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer VolatileVFR Posted February 23, 2008 Author Member Contributer Share Posted February 23, 2008 Ahhhhhhhh!!! bypass bank angle with 1 and 3.. didnt see that.. was thinking 1 and 2... hmmm .. hafta try that.. lemme go back over that last post Cit. ... PS.. thanks for the knowledge.. you are definitely helping.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer VolatileVFR Posted February 23, 2008 Author Member Contributer Share Posted February 23, 2008 I guess not knowing that, I was trying to find some way to test the transistor inside the BAS.. very nice.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer VolatileVFR Posted February 23, 2008 Author Member Contributer Share Posted February 23, 2008 Well heck.. showing voltage b/t 1 and 3 would be the same as shorting right? that is, normal batt. voltage... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer CitizenOfDreams Posted February 23, 2008 Member Contributer Share Posted February 23, 2008 Ahhhhhhhh!!! bypass bank angle with 1 and 3.. didnt see that.. was thinking 1 and 2... If you actually tried shorting 1 and 2, your 10A sub fuse is now blown and needs to be replaced. PS.. thanks for the knowledge.. you are definitely helping.. You're welcome. Let me know how it's coming, hopefully you'll get your bike running tonight and still have a few hours to sleep before riding it tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer CitizenOfDreams Posted February 23, 2008 Member Contributer Share Posted February 23, 2008 Well heck.. showing voltage b/t 1 and 3 would be the same as shorting right? that is, normal batt. voltage... No, that's not the same as shorting it... But the battery voltage there tells you that the engine stop relay has a good coil. When you short 1 and 3, the engine stop relay should click and the fuel pump should run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer VolatileVFR Posted February 23, 2008 Author Member Contributer Share Posted February 23, 2008 ok.. sounds good.. I will not be able ot run out to the garage for another 20 minutes.. but i will definitely do that on priority.. that will help me a WHOLE lot in diagnosis.. Thanks again *Citizen*.... Will let you know how it turns out.. depending on how late you stay up in Orlando, I may have an answer to you pretty soon.. :beer: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer CitizenOfDreams Posted February 23, 2008 Member Contributer Share Posted February 23, 2008 Will let you know how it turns out.. depending on how late you stay up in Orlando, I may have an answer to you pretty soon.. :beer: I'm still awake, so keep me posted. Easy on the beer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer VolatileVFR Posted February 23, 2008 Author Member Contributer Share Posted February 23, 2008 Hah!! Apparently it is a Newcastle night... hehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer VolatileVFR Posted February 23, 2008 Author Member Contributer Share Posted February 23, 2008 Yeeeehaw.. ok ok.. so the fuel pump has primed.. but how??? No clicking of any engine stop relay.... But rather, the initial testing showed the correct answer.... The Bank Angle sensor... !#!#$% it... thats $61.00 for a sensor via servicehonda!! sheeesh.. Looks like a winner to me.... Wish I could test the ACTUAL BAS just to appease my curiousity.... hmmm.... latch-up switch + transistor + lead switch.. hmmmmm... :joystick: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer VolatileVFR Posted February 23, 2008 Author Member Contributer Share Posted February 23, 2008 Hmmm.. Now, since it will probably take service honda at least 5-7 days to get a BAS to me, IF they have it in stock, and knowing it will cost $61 +shipping, my question arises: To Buy a new one or to short across the three pin conneector?? hmmm... Is that a question of 'How dangerous I wanna live' or should i say "Quit being stupid Michael and buy a new one".... thoughts on the idea?? Orrrrr..... Seb said he had a bunch of these?? ewwwwwwwwwwww... :beer: But for now, lets eliminate that I have that option since I have yet to insure myself of it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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