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The Official Oil Thread


HispanicSlammer

What Kind Of Oil Do You Use?  

1,244 members have voted

  1. 1. Oil Type?

    • Synthetic
      835
    • Dino/Organic
      238
    • Blend
      173
  2. 2. Motorcycle or Generic oil?

    • Motorcycle Specific
      735
    • Major Brands
      460
    • Generic Automotive
      84
  3. 3. Which Brand?

    • Honda Branded
      188
    • Mobile One
      325
    • AMSOil
      109
    • Castrol
      114
    • Penzoil
      11
    • Lucus
      3
    • Havoline
      1
    • Quaker State
      4
    • Motul
      107
    • Valvoline
      33
    • Golden Spectro
      16
    • Rotella
      209
    • Other
      126


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  • Member Contributer

I'm surprised about all the responses of folks using synthetic. I thought the manual said not to use oil with certain kind of friction additives or something, and every synthetic I've seen has them in the oil?

The issue is the wet clutch. Friction reducers and a device that needs friction can be a bad combination!
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To HispanicSlammer: Just keep in mind when going to adjust the clutch because your wheel is rolling. Its 100% normal for your wheel to roll when off the ground and the motor is running. Every motorcycle in the world does it( ok, at least 8 out of 10), its only a problem if its spinning faster than normal, and when you brake it or stop it from moving it affects engine rpm at all. Otherwise I wouldn't be concerned about it.

Edited by NakedViffer
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  • Member Contributer

Larry the only Mobil 1, 0W-30 I'm finding is something called "Advanced Fuel Economy". I've included a link. Is this what you are using?

http://www.mobiloil....il_1_0W-30.aspx

It shows similar viscosity numbers to what you quoted,

@ 40 degrees C: 63

@ 110 degrees C: 11

But their 0W-40 product has higher viscosity @ 40 degrees C: 75

Motorcycle specific Racing 4T specs: not any better than Rotella really

@40 degrees C: 82

@110 degrees C: 13

And what about "Viscosity Index"? how does that figure in?

Still somewhat confused with my 6th gen since Mother Honda is recommending 10W-40, it seems I should be using the 0W-40 employing your logic.

Yes... but "Advanced Fuel Economy" is oil can marketing... its like

gas pump marketing... you filter out what is important for your

bike... namely that is its the freest flowing 30wt at start up... not

to mention and that a freer flowing oil equals free HP because it

produces less drag in your engine...

Typically, synthetic oils sport a higher viscosity index. This is

another reason why they are better suited for the wide range of

temperatures and riding conditions associated with motor-cycle use.

They require little or no Viscosity modifiers... synthetic oils

typically will hold their viscosity grade longer and thus will rate a

higher index number than non synthetic...

If there is one thing a owner has control of its the viscosity of

their oil... Mother Honda gives us the choice of either a 30 40 50

weight oil... that means a 0 40 is perfectly within the manual's

recommendations... and if you ask me I will recommend 0 30... because

flow is what lubricates our engines not pressure... an increased in

flow is an increased in cooling by the oil... an increase in flow

works harder to separate the engine parts that are under very high

stress... all in all an 0 30 with a viscosity of 56 at start up and

viscosity of 10 at operating temps works out better than 10w 30 or 10W

40 or even 20W 50 in the interest of engine longevity...

post-3131-0-32777000-1323239640.jpg

post-3131-0-29847600-1323239975.jpg

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  • Member Contributer

To HispanicSlammer: Just keep in mind when going to adjust the clutch because your wheel is rolling. Its 100% normal for your wheel to roll when off the ground and the motor is running. Every motorcycle in the world does it( ok, at least 8 out of 10), its only a problem if its spinning faster than normal, and when you brake it or stop it from moving it affects engine rpm at all. Otherwise I wouldn't be concerned about it.

Wheel rotation is only normal if your oil is cold during start up but not when your oil is hot during operating temps...

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  • Member Contributer

and if you ask me I will recommend 0 30... because

flow is what lubricates our engines not pressure...

It must be winter, the oil thread is getting active again :laugh:

(I like a good oil thread.)

BLS, I have read your many posts about oil with interest. (Didn't we used to have a kind of bowing, 'I'm not worthy' emoticon? I wanted to insert that here.)

I used to be a proponent of Mobil 1 red cap for motorcycles up until a few years ago when they reformulated (or, more likely, remarketed ...) their lineup. Since then I have tried various oils in my bikes but haven't found anything I like as much as I liked red cap. I am currently using the motorcycle-specific Castrol Actevo Xtra 4T 10W-40 semi-synthetic. I like it better in the VFR than the Castrol motorcycle-specific 10W-40 conventional oil I tried last time (the semi-syn is smoother shifting). But I still don't think it's as good as the old fully synthetic red cap.

Do you endorse the above Mobil 1 0-30 Advanced Fuel Economy (which I assume is not bike-specific)? If so, I might give it a try next time around. I change my oil and filter frequently enough that viscosity breakdown from mileage is not a huge issue for me. My main concerns are smooth shifting, engine protection (antiwear) and cleaning (detergents).

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  • Member Contributer

Here is another pov. My college prof for power mechanics (1974) felt that engine warmup was faster if gently driven off after a short (30 sec.) idle rather than if allowed to idle up to operating temps. Any comments on this?

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  • Member Contributer

and if you ask me I will recommend 0 30... because

flow is what lubricates our engines not pressure...

It must be winter, the oil thread is getting active again :laugh:

(I like a good oil thread.)

BLS, I have read your many posts about oil with interest. (Didn't we used to have a kind of bowing, 'I'm not worthy' emoticon? I wanted to insert that here.)

I used to be a proponent of Mobil 1 red cap for motorcycles up until a few years ago when they reformulated (or, more likely, remarketed ...) their lineup. Since then I have tried various oils in my bikes but haven't found anything I like as much as I liked red cap. I am currently using the motorcycle-specific Castrol Actevo Xtra 4T 10W-40 semi-synthetic. I like it better in the VFR than the Castrol motorcycle-specific 10W-40 conventional oil I tried last time (the semi-syn is smoother shifting). But I still don't think it's as good as the old fully synthetic red cap.

Do you endorse the above Mobil 1 0-30 Advanced Fuel Economy (which I assume is not bike-specific)? If so, I might give it a try next time around. I change my oil and filter frequently enough that viscosity breakdown from mileage is not a huge issue for me. My main concerns are smooth shifting, engine protection (antiwear) and cleaning (detergents).

Thank you Belfry...

I endorse 100% synthetic with a viscosity of 56 at start up and a

viscosity of 10 at operating temps... I also endorse warming up your

oil to operating temps before selecting first gear...

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  • Member Contributer

I'm surprised about all the responses of folks using synthetic. I thought the manual said not to use oil with certain kind of friction additives or something, and every synthetic I've seen has them in the oil?

The issue is the wet clutch. Friction reducers and a device that needs friction can be a bad combination!

Negative... I've been using 10/30 Energy Conserving Mobil 1 since 98

in Mr.RC45 with no clutch slipping due to oil being certified 10%

slipperier than non EC oil... and it's a bike with a tall first gear

good for 90mph that's known to incinerate clutch plates...

Whats confusing the issue is the fact that all motorcycle wet clutches

will reach a point in their life and start to slip... so someone at

some point in time added the EC 10% slipperier oil and got the clutch

to slip... in error the oil was blamed and the "don't use EC Oil" myth

was started... even the manufactures have gone along with the myth and

didn't take the time to sort out the truth...

In short a 10% slippery oil can not defeat a wet clutch... because our

clutches are not within 10% of slipping to begin with...

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Ive gotten over 90,000 miles on good clutch oil and expect a whole lot more , wonder when it would have failed with bad clutch oil , like MB rated Mobil 1 products?

I did once run Mobil 1 High milege 10w40, it was much slippery clutch oil, I litterally had to adjust my riding for it, not really out right slipping, but you could tell less bite in certain corner entry clutch action, too much freewheel, not enough drag. That was a direct Lack of clutch friction, even though I didnt experience out right slipping under acceleration, at some point though Im sure the MB1 will accelerate failure long before a Good clutch oil.

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The strongest clutch oil Ive used is Rotella 15w40, I hate the stuff, its clutch action is so strong, Notchy as Hell shifting. But it and Both Rotella 5w40 offer good clutch life. The key to clutch Life is Clean oil, and good oil grip. Particulate will eat clutch fibers.

Ive been running Delo 15w40 for the last 30,000 miles, it was great grip , fairly cheap, and usable.

If I had to runan oil for 4 to 8,000 mile, it would be Mobil1 Vtwin 20w50, but for the Longevity Bros, frequent oil changes is the best method to reduce particulate damage.

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10w30 will actually be thicker than straight 30 weight at full temperature, There's no polymers in straight 30 weight to Hold the viscosity, straight 30 weight, the hotter it gets the thinner it gets, damn near water, on a hot drain. Ive never seen a 10w30 with Polymers thin that much, Polymers is what maintains the visosity in mutigrades, as it heats, and multigrade group 2 and 3 oils have alot polymers, Now they say Polymers by themselves arent very good at lubricatiing. so is a thicker 10w30 at full temp with polymers, more protective than a thinner straight 30 weight with no polymers? Idont now but I can tell you stright 30 weight scared the Livin chit out of me, it was so thin, it drained in 30 seconds and not a drip afterwards PURE WATER!!!!!

Edited by spud786
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  • Member Contributer

10w30 will actually be thicker than straight 30 weight at full temperature, There's no polymers in straight 30 weight to Hold the viscosity, straight 30 weight, the hotter it gets the thinner it gets, damn near water, on a hot drain. Ive never seen a 10w30 with Polymers thin that much, Polymers is what maintains the visosity in mutigrades, as it heats, and multigrade group 2 and 3 oils have alot polymers, Now they say Polymers by themselves arent very good at lubricatiing. so is a thicker 10w30 at full temp with polymers, more protective than a thinner straight 30 weight with no polymers? Idont now but I can tell you stright 30 weight scared the Livin chit out of me, it was so thin, it drained in 30 seconds and not a drip afterwards PURE WATER!!!!!

True a straight weight 30 wether dino or synthetic does not use polymers

to stay in grade but also true that synthetics multi grades use little

or no polymers to stay in grade... the same can not be said about dino

multi grades... their base stocks are usually a 10wt oil and employ

polymers to flow like a 30 weight when hot... I confirmed with a Mobil

1 Technician that their 100% synthetic oils in grades 0 30 / 5 30 /

10W 30 are all essentially a 30 weight oil and can not be thinned by

the action of shearing... this is good news for us with engines that

share oil with the gear box...

Water is a molecule... the size of the molecule does not change but

the ability of water to flow does with temperature... H20 molecules

can be hard as ice... flow free as water or seen invisible as vapor...

but the size of the molecule does not altered its size... a 30 weight

oil molecule is the same size cold or hot but its ability to flow is

altered... cold it flows like molasses and hot it will flow like

water... we can't lubricate our engines with oil that flows like

molasses whereas we can lubricate our engines with oil the flows like

water... we should take it as a good sign that our engines are

protected by the hot flow of oil that reminds us of water...

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  • Member Contributer
Im sure the MB1 will accelerate failure long before a Good clutch oil.

Negative... synthetic oil does not accelerate failure... syn oil cools and prolongs our clutches... if you wish to note accelerated failure take it to the drag strip or race track...

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  • Member Contributer

So, Mr. BLS, what IS the moly content of M1 0W30? It's been very cold here (single digits to low teens in the morning) and I'm thinking of trying this.

Edited by rangemaster
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  • Member Contributer

So, Mr. BLS, what IS the moly content of M1 0W30? It's been very cold here (single digits to low teens in the morning) and I'm thinking of trying this.

I don't know the moly content of M1 0 30... but I've sent for a Blackstone test bottle to find out...

Additives fall into several basic categories but Moly is the most

often used friction modifier because it has such a high melting

temperature (4730¯ F versus 2795¯ F for iron), it works great as a

high-temperature, high-pressure antiwear agent. Some claim that

because moly is so slick, it can cause clutch slippage... but note

that 6 of the 19 motorcycle oils Sport Rider tested used moly

including the HP4 market by Honda for any of their motorcycles...

146-0310-Moly.content-zoom.gif

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Guest daemontrym

Interesting read BLS, how would trying this fare against a southern AZ summer? Many times last summer it was 105-117 outside during my commutes and long weekend rides. What would you suggest in that case?

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  • Member Contributer

Interesting read BLS, how would trying this fare against a southern AZ summer? Many times last summer it was 105-117 outside during my commutes and long weekend rides. What would you suggest in that case?

My choice would be either a 0 30 or 0 40 depending on coolant temps... never 15 50...

Since 98 Mr.RC45 and Mobil 1 10W30 has gone through the summer months here in Ca with

outside temps over 100ºF... this summer I shall run Mobil 1 0 30... my coolant temps stabilize

between 212ºF and 230ºF... only at stand still do I see 230ºF but as soon as I drop the clutch the

temps fall... I have over 55K miles on the clock and Larry Calamari is not known to ride in moderation...

One rating to know is a Oils HTHS rating taken at 302ºF / 150ºC...

HTHS stands for High Temperature High Shear and what it means is that

if you somehow allow your engine reach 150c or 302F the 0 30 oil will

flow at a viscosity of 3.06... but In order to run 302F our

coolant systems would have to fail or we would be racing wide

fooking open on a track...

The thickness of moving oil is measured in centiStokes or cS. The

motorcycle engineers design the pump and blow off so the ideal oil

viscosity is around 10 cS at normal operating temp of 100c or 212F...

The really thick multigrade oils such as 50Wt have a viscosity of 20

cS at operating temperature. Contrary what some people believe 50 is

not twice as thick as 30, it is only 10 cS thicker... or 10 cS free

flowing...

As we increase the heat from 212 F to 302 F my recommended 30 wt oil

thins from 10 cS to 3 cS... a 50w oil drops from 20 cS to 4 cS. Note

that in a very hot engine the difference between the two oils is now

only 1 - 2 cS. In other words they have about the same thickness.

There is little advantage to a thicker based oil as a 15W-50 at very

high temperatures... its a fact that the 4 cS oil is not twice as

thick as the 2 or 3 cS oil. This difference is measurable but no

cause for alarm...

There is a huge advantage of using the free flowing 0W-30 at startup

where 90 percent of the engine wear occurs. At 75 F the free flowing

0W 30 has a viscosity of 56 cS while the less flowing 0W 40 oil has a

viscosity of 80 cS. The less flowing stuff is 24 cS slower. This is a

much bigger difference than the .44 cS at HTHS...

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  • Member Contributer

Wow, thank you Sir. Come home late from work, sit down at the computer with a beer, see if there have been any updates on the oil the thread and there's the answer to my question! I've seen some motorcycle oils with 3 x's the amount of moly these have so the 0W30 is going in this weekend.

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Im sure the MB1 will accelerate failure long before a Good clutch oil.

Negative... synthetic oil does not accelerate failure... syn oil cools and prolongs our clutches... if you wish to note accelerated failure take it to the drag strip or race track...

Nobody said synthetic oil accelerates faiilure, I said MB rated oil like your ow30 mobil1 doesnt meet the MA clutch friction gate, While there is moly agents in some mc oils, Ive only had issue with Redline MB rated oil with 700 ppm Moly.

Theres one thing analysis doesnt show , the Base Oil slickness , the anals only show only the additives, but Low weight energy efficient oils are going to be full of Polymers strands.

Ive ran real synthetic , not the group 3 mobile one stuff, in 5 w40 weight Group 4 PAO oil and obvious cam lobe wear within 30,000 miles , in a 4,000 pm car okay, but a 12,000 rpm bike, ow30 is thin stuff.

Edited by spud786
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  • Member Contributer

I said MB rated oil like your ow30 mobil1 doesnt meet the MA clutch friction gate,

An oil that meets JASO-MA is considered appropriate for wet clutch operations. Oils marketed as

motorcycle-specific will carry the JASO-MA label. A properly specified motorcycle oil will still allow for

the appropriate lubrication and cooling of a motorcycle clutch, whilst maintaining 100% of the drive

to be transmitted by the clutch, even under arduous operating conditions... Mr.RC45's tall first gear

good for 90mph operates under arduous conditions on the street and track... and I'm here to report

that Mobli 1 10W30 or 0W30 has maintained 100% of the drive of 116RWHP... so for all practical

purporses I've meet and passed the MA clutch friction gate test... so do you still think 0W30 won't

pass mustard with your VFR's clutch???

but Low weight energy efficient oils are going to be full of Polymers strands.

Techincally speaking straight dino oil employs heavy polymers but synthetics employ either light

weight polymers or no polymers at all...

Quote Oil Bible

Unfortunately, because petroleum basestocks (dino oil ) are so prone to viscosity

loss at high temperatures, high molecular weight polymers must be

used. Since these polymers are more prone to shearing than lower

molecular weight polymers, petroleum oils tend to shear back very

quickly. In other words, they lose their ability to maintain their

viscosity at high temperatures.

Synthetic basestocks, on the other hand, are much less prone to

viscosity loss at high temperatures. Therefore, lower molecular weight

polymers may be used as VI improvers. These polymers are less prone to

shearing, so they are effective for a much longer period of time than

the VI improvers used in (dino) petroleum oils. In other words, synthetic

oils do not quickly lose their ability to maintain viscosity at high

temperatures as petroleum oils do.

In fact, some synthetic basestocks are so stable at high temperatures

they need NO VI improvers at all. Obviously, these basestocks will

maintain their high temperature viscosities for a very long time since

there are no VI improvers to break down.

Ive ran real synthetic , not the group 3 mobile one stuff, in 5 w40 weight Group 4 PAO oil and obvious cam lobe wear within 30,000 miles

What year VFR was this and how did you note the obvious wear??? Did you Mic the cam to follow up your assumptions???

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It was on a DRZ400, 5w40 group4 PAO (2,000 mile max interval) street, I didnt mic the cam, cause it didnt matter to me at the time, bike still worked good, but the lobe wear was obvious(and I noted it first at 25,000 miles(3rd check), it was worse by 40,000 , and I checked the valves on it atleast 4 or 5 times in the 40,000 mile I owned it.

10,000 Rpm redline, Alot of sustained 8 to 9,500 rpm riding.

I just fiquere, if a 5w40 Pure PAO cant quelch that wear, definitely dont want lower .

On a side note My vfr 5w40 Rotella loses a full Grade by 1100 miles, I broke the bike in on that the first 7,000 miles. But I run heavier stuff since that time.

I always found more oil stays on the lobes with a thicker oil than thin oil during shut down time.

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How did you determine your oil lost a full grade in 1100 miles???

Through oil analysis, I saw alot of oil degrade in the first 7,000 miles which was kinda shocking to me, I was running about 1100 mile intervals,becuse of this. I did the analysis to verify what my eye was seeing ,on my oil dumps.

BTW all my oil dumps are after multihoured runs, drained HOT

The first analysis was on Rotella 5w40 synthetic, and the second was on Amsoil 15w40 diesil, the amsoil held up alot better and more than double the distance with identical wear numbers and oil degrade over the Rotella.

Edited by spud786
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