Guest Jonchilds Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 Ok, I'm still having problems getting a good charge into the battery on my bike, even after trying several different 'fixes' common to VFR's. When the bike is cold, I get 12.4-12.7V at idle, and holding a steady 4500-5000rpm, the battery voltage slowly creeps up to 13.5V. As the bike warms up, the battery voltage is only able to creep up to 13.23V, which hardly charges the battery. Cruising at 5,000rpm, with the high beam on, the battery voltage drops to 12.7-12.8V. When coming to a stop after cruising for extended periods with 13.2-13.5V going into the battery, the voltage will drop off we 12.4-12.8V. Tests/'fixes' so far: - On my third battery - Two regulators tried (neither gets really warm after 5min with high beams on at idle) - Both R/R's will not exceed ~14.2V if attached to a battery NOT in the bike (even the bike battery). - Sensor wire shorted/bridged to +ve output from regulator. - No significant voltage drops between the R/R and the battery. (<0.1V) - Stator resistance is 0.25ohm across each of the three phases, and no continuity to ground with 250V. Standard is 0.1-1.0ohm. - Stator output it 40V/AC at 5,000rpm (unloaded, should be 50V/AC) - Loaded output is ~9-12V/AC (usually 10-11V) depending on the mood of the bike. - Stator output is ~3-4A/AC at idle, and exceeds 10A (limit of meter) with some more revs. - Shorting a light globe across the stator ouput lights it up brilliantly. - Have run additional 50A wiring from the regulator to the battery terminal/ground. There's probably a couple of more things I can't think of at the moment. I'm open to almost ANY suggestions as to what it might be. I've only been able to ride the bike for 2 weeks since I got it in early Jan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer gll429 Posted March 28, 2007 Member Contributer Share Posted March 28, 2007 13 .5 is just about perfect.. 12 is break even..... put a computer fan on your r/r and silver heat compound on the back of r/r... gound the green wires to the frame.. not the harness. go get a new pepboys autozone battery (40 bucks) they come witha 2 year warrenty.. no questions asked.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jonchilds Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 The battery was replaced in the middle of January (Australian summer), and then again mid-february as we thought we'd picked up a dud. 12 isn't break even, as I'm still getting flat batteries, and fail to get 13.2V unless I'm at 4000rpm or higher. My R/R doesn't get too hot (barely hot?). I'm not into push starting a 220+kg bike every time I want to go for a ride longer than 20-30mins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer gll429 Posted March 28, 2007 Member Contributer Share Posted March 28, 2007 you do not want a hot reg/rec... and 12volts is break even.. i am a honda tech.. optimal charging is under 14v at 5000 rpm.. .went to school to get the paper that says "greg know what the f#@* he is doing" you may have a crappy battery if it is older than the r/.r it may just be bad... and you may have a bad gound at other spots on the bike... take the green wire at different places on the bike and ground them to the frame.. make sure your THICK ground top the battery is not cracked... if you have extra stuff to the battery.. put the THICK ones directly on the battery.. then any others on top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jonchilds Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 and you may have a bad gound at other spots on the bike... take the green wire at different places on the bike and ground them to the frame.. Did you read that I've added an additional ground from the R/R to the battery, and that there's no apparent losses between the R/R Green and ground? and 12volts is break even.. i am a honda tech.. Dude, if I go for a ride and have less than 13.0V going into the battery for long periods, why doesn't the bike start? Break even is at 13.0-13.2V. I get the whole chug, chug, chug, from the starter then click, click, click from the starter relay, and my clocks/trip meter are reset. Honda tech or not, I know lead acid batteries don't get much of a proper charge under 13.2V, and can be considered 'flat' much under 12.6V. You may be great at the mechanical/servicing side, but please don't tell me that 12.0V is break even. you may have a crappy battery if it is older than the r/.r it may just be bad... Battery is a 6 weeks old at most. Previous battery was 2-4 weeks old. Both apparently test fine on a load tester. Battery before those two was of unknown age, but replaced it anyway... R/R is probably 12 weeks old - and I have two WORKING ones (tests fine for diode voltage drops, and doesn't overcharge) .went to school to get the paper that says "greg know what the f#@* he is doing" I've been to school too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer gll429 Posted March 28, 2007 Member Contributer Share Posted March 28, 2007 QUOTE(gll429 @ Mar 28 2007, 03:21 PM) and you may have a bad gound at other spots on the bike... take the green wire at different places on the bike and ground them to the frame.. Did you read that I've added an additional ground from the R/R to the battery, and that there's no apparent losses between the R/R Green and ground?" F$#K THE R/R!!! THE OTHER GREEN WIRES ON THE HARNESS!!!!! ground the r/r to the frame 2 inches from the r/r!!!! so if you went to MMI and HONDA... why ask shit you should know? and have in your notes??? clearly you did not check other places on your bike for bad grounds. not jusy the r/r.. but EVERYWHERE!!! the harness is normally grounded at one spot.. i ground mine at many... go back and check every where.. if you are lucky you just may have aloose battery bolt.. i have seen that so many times from "people who have checked everything!!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer gll429 Posted March 28, 2007 Member Contributer Share Posted March 28, 2007 i am going to say this nicly .. maybe you were sick the the days they talked about current loops.. the stater makes the juice.... the juice goes to the reg/rec.... juice goes to battery......... juice goes to switchs then all over harness.. juice goes to frame(!!!!!!!!!) juice goes back to battery... now... if the harness is baddly grounded you bike will not charge very welll it may charge fine sitting still but get crappy with bumps and movement.. check all over. good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baileyrock Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 Play nice kids, no reason to offend or talk down to each other. No one is 100% right, so please try not to come off that way, we can all learn something every day. If not we might as well be dead! :goofy: Different opinions (right or wrong) don't need to get nasty here, there's GSXR boards for that! :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer RolandHTG Posted March 28, 2007 Member Contributer Share Posted March 28, 2007 Ok, I'm still having problems getting a good charge into the battery on my bike, even after trying several different 'fixes' common to VFR's.When the bike is cold, I get 12.4-12.7V at idle, and holding a steady 4500-5000rpm, the battery voltage slowly creeps up to 13.5V. As the bike warms up, the battery voltage is only able to creep up to 13.23V, which hardly charges the battery. Cruising at 5,000rpm, with the high beam on, the battery voltage drops to 12.7-12.8V. When coming to a stop after cruising for extended periods with 13.2-13.5V going into the battery, the voltage will drop off we 12.4-12.8V. Tests/'fixes' so far: - On my third battery - Two regulators tried (neither gets really warm after 5min with high beams on at idle) - Both R/R's will not exceed ~14.2V if attached to a battery NOT in the bike (even the bike battery). - Sensor wire shorted/bridged to +ve output from regulator. - No significant voltage drops between the R/R and the battery. (<0.1V) - Stator resistance is 0.25ohm across each of the three phases, and no continuity to ground with 250V. Standard is 0.1-1.0ohm. - Stator output it 40V/AC at 5,000rpm (unloaded, should be 50V/AC) - Loaded output is ~9-12V/AC (usually 10-11V) depending on the mood of the bike. - Stator output is ~3-4A/AC at idle, and exceeds 10A (limit of meter) with some more revs. - Shorting a light globe across the stator ouput lights it up brilliantly. - Have run additional 50A wiring from the regulator to the battery terminal/ground. There's probably a couple of more things I can't think of at the moment. I'm open to almost ANY suggestions as to what it might be. I've only been able to ride the bike for 2 weeks since I got it in early Jan. Stator output needs to be at least 15 volts AC at idle and 50 volts at 2500 and all three phases must not vary much. You do not list the three readings, what are they? Those figures are from memory from the electrosport fault finding chart, I may be off a bit from the chart but clearly your stator output is below spec, suggesting a bad phase in your stator. My stator went bad last month, my phase readings were 55,55 and 18 at 2500 and 18, 18 and 8 at idle, Charging violtage at battery was 12.2-13.0 from idle to 5000. I replaced the stator and charging voltage is now 13.2-14.3 (This is better than it ever was since I bought the bike in 2001 70,000 miles ago.) Oh yeah, I almost forgot my credentials, I am an IT Technical Support Specialist 3. Not only that but my avatar is prettier than that squirrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jonchilds Posted March 31, 2007 Share Posted March 31, 2007 Ok, I HAVE grounded the harness in addition to what Honda put on there initially. I've checked the grounding, and it's all less than 0.1ohm to the frame from all the points I've checked, including the battery -ve to frame. Output from the stator is 40V/AC for each of the three phases (vary by no more than a volt). 12V/AC unloaded at idle isn't that different from 15V/AC unloaded (just a few hundred rpm), but at 2,500rpm I'm seeing alot less than 50V. I've put a genuine Yuasa battery in, and I now get to charge at 14.8V at 5000rpm until the bike warms up. Once things get hot (temp at or over 95'c/200'f) the output starts to drop, and I no longer get charge into the battery. When hot, and after riding for a while, the dash lights dim, and I'm seeing about 11-12V at the battery. I can't start the bike again once this happens. Seems like at idle (1000rpm) the R/R is only able to put out ~6A and the remaining 7-8A to run the bike comes from the battery. The contribution from the R/R increases to about 15A at 2500rpm which is where we start to see break even/charging happening. I'll get hold of a third/fourth multimeter tomorrow and have more of a play... I've gone through again and checked both R/R's by putting them in the oven at 80's and checking for diode voltage drops, with everything seeming normal. I've also checked the alternator output when things get hot, and I still see 40V/AC at 5000rpm, and can still get >10A out with some revs. Removing the sensor wire from the 6P connector doesn't see the voltage increase at all (should jump to 20-22V if it's all 100%), so we're seeing the R/R and/or the alternator struggle to provide enough power at idle, and I'm guessing something similar when things heat up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer RolandHTG Posted March 31, 2007 Member Contributer Share Posted March 31, 2007 According to the Electrosport Fault Finding Chart You need 50 volts at 5000rpm or a new stator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jonchilds Posted April 1, 2007 Share Posted April 1, 2007 Yeah, I'm almost resigned to putting a new stator in now... I've been loathe to replace it due to having replaced it once already, but after more testing, it seems to be the stator (or alternator) that's suffering... 3 phases at 7A each = 21A into the R/R. Take losses into account, and the ~18A max we see come out of the R/R doesn't seem too far off... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer swas Posted April 1, 2007 Member Contributer Share Posted April 1, 2007 Sounds like you boys have come to the right conclusion - Something in the stator wiring breaking down when hot, causing loss of volts, which is the most important part of the deal when rectifying and thence charging. The current is only a by product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jonchilds Posted April 1, 2007 Share Posted April 1, 2007 Thinking along this further - and after having put the megameter across it again when hot - we're not seeing any changes in stator continuity or grounding (measured with 250V). It seems like the magnets are losing strength as they heat up, which is causing this loss in output (both current and voltage), along with being the only thing we haven't replaced or tried to fix... I know it's a rare thing to demagnetise a rotor, but I did have an accident in January where the bike struck a guard rail on it's left, and landed down the road on its left side, so this may have sufficiently shocked the rotor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtlecreek Posted April 1, 2007 Share Posted April 1, 2007 Thinking along this further - and after having put the megameter across it again when hot - we're not seeing any changes in stator continuity or grounding (measured with 250V).It seems like the magnets are losing strength as they heat up, which is causing this loss in output (both current and voltage), along with being the only thing we haven't replaced or tried to fix... I know it's a rare thing to demagnetise a rotor, but I did have an accident in January where the bike struck a guard rail on it's left, and landed down the road on its left side, so this may have sufficiently shocked the rotor. i dont know enough about the VFR and this problem (i've read the 10000000000....posts, but never actually experienced it or worked on it), but i find it reeeaaalll hard to believe you are demagnatizing. probably what is happening is your insulation in your unit is breaking down and you are experiencing losses inside the unit that make its magnetic flux fields weaken and thus produce lower voltage/less current. this is a typical 'motor/generator' fault that occurs with heat as the high temp breaks down the insulation enough so that only higher currents break through it and reduce efficiency, but you put a volt/ohm meter on it, you would never see it. there is equipment (hipot testing) that can find it, but the easier way is to run it, see that the voltage is below spec and realize this is what is happening. my .02 oh,and i haven't been to any of these mc schools, but i did stay in a holiday in select last night ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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