Member Contributer KevCarver Posted April 10, 2006 Member Contributer Share Posted April 10, 2006 New battery, original stator and r/r = 12.8 at speed. Replaced r/r w/new factory upgraded version, now 13.48 at 5 K. Manual calls for 14.0-14.8 at 5 K. Idles at 13+ (1K) and pops to 14.02 at 1,500 K), drops thereafter as rpm increase to 5 K, when it shows 13.48.Everything checks out fine statically (.2 ohm on stator, no continuity, good ground, battery voltage through harness, etc.). Though stator checks out statically, will now do dynamic check to measure VAC and if below 50 and/or no equal on stator legs, will replace stator. Not sure what else it can be. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Testing my stator as best I know how. Assuming I have the correct setting on the meter... Showing .3ohm, and no continuity to ground. I took it off, and approx. 2/3 of the stator is darker color than the rest. The stator plug to the R/R was a little toasty from the original R/R, but didn't seem damaged. The new R/R plugs are still tip top shape. Not sure I should replace the stator... I'll try another new battery and Tender. FWIW, the dead battery is down to 5v sitting on the bench for a couple days. Max it got on the charger was 9v. Still don't know what killed it... Just sitting on the bike for a month? I understand that it could be discharged from that, but why won't it charge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 10, 2006 Share Posted April 10, 2006 Usually a battery death like that is caused by a vibration-induced dead cell. Bike batteries have the worst life b/c of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer vfrjim2002 Posted April 10, 2006 Member Contributer Share Posted April 10, 2006 no alarm system. The only thing I have that I know is running all the time is the multi function volt meter and the clock on the stock dash. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You may have a current leak somewhere. There is a thread on this around here somewhere. Take a look. In essence, with the KEY OFF, disconnect the positive lead (neg should work too) and bridge it with a multi-meter in current mode. If you seeing more than a few milliamps try disconnecting various subsystems until you find the one that reduces the flow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Viffed Posted April 10, 2006 Share Posted April 10, 2006 I know that with my c-volt meter I can watch as the meter dicharges the battery over time. I kept a good eye on it over the winter and after about 6 weeks the voltage had dropped far enough to make me uncomfortable (below 12V). The c-volt draws 1-2 mA of current continuously whereas the clock on the bike draws much less (I measured it once, forgot what it was exactly). Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misspent Youth Posted April 10, 2006 Share Posted April 10, 2006 You may have a current leak somewhere. There is a thread on this around here somewhere. Take a look. In essence, with the KEY OFF, disconnect the positive lead (neg should work too) and bridge it with a multi-meter in current mode. If you seeing more than a few milliamps try disconnecting various subsystems until you find the one that reduces the flow. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Re: "Neg should work too." I saw that in a manual (maybe the factory one) and got "000" for a milliamp reading, which sounds good (no drain), but shouldn't a bike with a clock always show at least a small drain? I'll try using the positive terminal when I check it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misspent Youth Posted April 10, 2006 Share Posted April 10, 2006 Testing my stator as best I know how. Assuming I have the correct setting on the meter... Showing .3ohm, and no continuity to ground. I took it off, and approx. 2/3 of the stator is darker color than the rest. The stator plug to the R/R was a little toasty from the original R/R, but didn't seem damaged. The new R/R plugs are still tip top shape. Not sure I should replace the stator... I'll try another new battery and Tender. FWIW, the dead battery is down to 5v sitting on the bench for a couple days. Max it got on the charger was 9v. Still don't know what killed it... Just sitting on the bike for a month? I understand that it could be discharged from that, but why won't it charge? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> March '06 Rider Magazine, the Service or Tech section - the guy answering the questions responds to a Harley rider re: stator issues and said he learned a long time ago to always replace the stator when he replaces the r/r, and vice versa. Presumably, he does this even though he certainly knows about the static tests for a "good" stator. That tells me he doesn't trust those tests to tell the whole stator wellness story. He then talks about testing the stator dynamically, where you disconnect the stator from the r/r and probe the ends w/multimeter set for VAC (volts A/C). If he doesn't get 60-70 VAC at 5 K rpm AND/OR he doesn't get an equal reading off of each leg, he replaces the stator. The Electrex flow chart shows the same test, but allows for as low as 50 VAC before calling the stator bad. I'll try that test next weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 10, 2006 Share Posted April 10, 2006 Re:? "Neg should work too."? I saw that in a manual (maybe the factory one) and got "000" for a milliamp reading, which sounds good (no drain), but shouldn't a bike with a clock always show at least a small drain?? I'll try using the positive terminal when I check it again. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You may have a drain in a system that comes on when the bike is switched on. Also, there are multimeters that are not very accurate when measuring 1mA. There is always some drain from the battery, it's just it may be less than the lowest amount of current your meter can measure. As long as you place the meter in series with the battery (such that one lead of the meter is connected to the battery and the other is connected to the bike where the battery would normally be connected), it doesn't matter if you place it on the negative terminal or the positive terminal. You should disconnect the battery ground first. So typically, you would put the meter between the ground (-) terminal of the battery and the black lead of your bike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer teleskier Posted April 10, 2006 Author Member Contributer Share Posted April 10, 2006 ok. bought a multi meter. Bike measures .98mA by itself. With the volt meter in place it measure 9.8mA Way too much I think. Why would it be drawing so much? Bad connections somewhere? Again, I am an electrical idiot. oh..and the battery itself measures 12.4 V Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misspent Youth Posted April 10, 2006 Share Posted April 10, 2006 ok. bought a multi meter. Bike measures .98mA by itself. With the volt meter in place it measure 9.8mAWay too much I think. Why would it be drawing so much? Bad connections somewhere? Again, I am an electrical idiot. oh..and the battery itself measures 12.4 V <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm an electric illiterate. As I understand parasitic current loss (key off, and battery is draining, or, key on, motor running, current being drained away, rather than going to battery to restore charge), there are twp possible causes. First, you can have a short somewhere in the harness/switches, etc. that is grounded and losing enough current w/o blowing a fuse. Second, the r/r can have bad diodes (there are three one-way diodes that are supposed to prevent the backflow of electricty through the r/r). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer teleskier Posted April 10, 2006 Author Member Contributer Share Posted April 10, 2006 not sure what all that means in relation to my readings with and without the volt meter hooked up. Does that mean I may have a bad connection in the voltmeter wiring? Is the .98mA draw without it connected ok? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enzed_viffer Posted April 10, 2006 Share Posted April 10, 2006 Enzed: I am not familliar with that type. Mine is the popular C-Volt model but there i s only 1 pair of wires into the voltmeter. Do you have an example of any voltmeters that have the display powered separately from the meter circut. I would be interested. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Bob, The one I had on my VTR was like this, at least until the wire to the illumination failed. The same wire also powered the coloured LEDs at the top that gave "battery voltage at a glance". I can''t remember the brand, but it was one I bought at a consumer electronics store. border='0' alt='user posted image' /> instruments.jpg Here's a link to it: Voltmeter/clock/stopwatch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misspent Youth Posted April 10, 2006 Share Posted April 10, 2006 not sure what all that means in relation to my readings with and without the volt meter hooked up. Does that mean I may have a bad connection in the voltmeter wiring?Is the .98mA draw without it connected ok? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Sorry. I thought you were looking on feedback on where excessive parasitic drains could occur. From what I understand, your number for the bike, itself, is OK, considering a clock is running/draining. Your 9.8 ma w/vm attached doesn't sound bad, but I'm not sure what the vm is supposed to draw. Perhaps it says on the back? Still, I understand the total draw to be quite small and would require substantial time before causing the need for a battery recharge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Viffed Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 Teleskier: At 10mA your meter is a large load on your battery, when you figure the load over time. At that rate, a fully charged brand new stock battery would be completely dead in as little as 1 month. If the bike goes for more than a week at a time without being ran, this discharge pattern will cause damage to the battery, accelerating the wear and tear on the plates from the repeated deep discharging. I would recommend installing a relay setup to power the meter (and would be useful for other things, like heated gear) or connecting the meter to an ignition controlled source, such as the license plate light. Alternatively you could purchase and install a different meter with a lower current draw. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fricksdad Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 no alarm system. The only thing I have that I know is running all the time is the multi function volt meter and the clock on the stock dash. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I had the same issues after installing the same brand multi-meter. The install directions call for wiring one hot lead directly to the battery and a second hot lead to a switched circuit such as the license plate light. Wiring this way keeps the meter "hot" and you can read time, voltage, and temperature even with the ignition switched off. Nice feature but this sucker pulls 10 milliamps and will drop open circuit battery voltage to a significant degree over a fairly short period of time. I changed the wiring to pull current off a relay I previously installed for heated grips and problem solved. You do lose the clock function as it re-sets each time you turn on the ignition but we already had a perfectly good clock anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 I think there might be some confusion here, some info just in case there is: A multi-meter can measure voltage, resistance and current. When measuring voltage the meter goes in parallel with what you are measuring , when measuring current (amps) the meter goes in series with what you are measuring. As is shown in this very scientific schematic: border='0' alt='user posted image' /> meter_use.JPG You NEVER place the meter in parallel with the battery to measure current (would either burn out the fuse in your meter or discharge your battery very fast). Also measuring current without connecting the battery to the bike is useless, this is electrically the same as running a wire straight from the positive to the negative terminal of the battery. When measuring voltage, the multi meter has a very high resistance (like air). This means it draws very little current from whatever it is measuring (ideally this current is zero). Removing the meter from the setup while measuring voltage should have very little effect on whats going on in the rest of the circuit (ideally no effect). When measuring current, the multi meter has a very low resistance (like a piece of wire). This means it has a very small voltage difference across it, allows as much current as the system can source (ideally zero resistance like a perfect connection). Removing the meter from the setup while measuring current breaks the current flow, (opens the circuit) in the case of your bike, disconnects the battery from the bike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer teleskier Posted April 11, 2006 Author Member Contributer Share Posted April 11, 2006 GOLDVFR, As far as i can tell I did what you are saying. To measure mA I had it hooked in series. My voltage reading for the battery was done terminal to terminal in parallel. Correct? By the way, I just took off that damn volt meter, similar to the one above in picture, probably a newer model. I will look into the C-Volts to see what they draw. I don't need all the other functions anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misspent Youth Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 New battery, original stator and r/r = 12.8 at speed. Replaced r/r w/new factory upgraded version, now 13.48 at 5 K. Manual calls for 14.0-14.8 at 5 K. Idles at 13+ (1K) and pops to 14.02 at 1,500 K), drops thereafter as rpm increase to 5 K, when it shows 13.48.Everything checks out fine statically (.2 ohm on stator, no continuity, good ground, battery voltage through harness, etc.). Though stator checks out statically, will now do dynamic check to measure VAC and if below 50 and/or no equal on stator legs, will replace stator. Not sure what else it can be. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> FYI, tested stator output dynamically and found 59.6 VAC on all three legs. Will now re-do grounds to get over 14 v at 5K. Anyone know which ones I should do and where they are? The ground strap for the battery goes to the fuel rail? I can't get a wrench or socket on it - is there a trick? Any other grounds I should look at? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Viffed Posted April 13, 2006 Share Posted April 13, 2006 As I mentioned earlier, the c-volt meter draws 1-2 mA. It has the same effect on your battery if it's active all the time, just takes longer. If you're going to leave your motorcycle parked for long periods of time, it's best to make sure all the loads on the battery are disconnected or you have a battery tender hooked up. Here's a pic of my c-volt: Chris border='0' alt='user posted image' /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer teleskier Posted April 13, 2006 Author Member Contributer Share Posted April 13, 2006 are you sure on the mA draw? their LED unit says it draws 13mA. I dont see any specs for their other units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer teleskier Posted April 14, 2006 Author Member Contributer Share Posted April 14, 2006 email from C-Volt says unit only draws .15mAH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Viffed Posted April 15, 2006 Share Posted April 15, 2006 Some time back I did a current versus voltage plot of the c-volt meter using the calibration standard equipment at work. The lcd units I have both draw the same current, starting at less than 1mA around 6 volts, and linearly increasing to approximately 2mA at 18 volts. I haven't tested the LED version, although I do have one. Perhaps I'll hook it up to my 12V rig at home and check it with my Fluke. I'll let you know! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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