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Baileyrock

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He's coming up here in a few weeks, and is going to check the bike out then. He's offered to replace the spring (if he can get one to fit) and change the valving on the Elka, if it looks like being necessary.

You can't ask for anything more! I look forward to seeing what he does & says. I would also like to know the number on your spring.

PS don't forget, when check sag you should basically have rebound/comp settings on zero(full soft) so that your only measuring Spring and not any effect of damping. :angry:

BTW I don't think there is, but is there any ratio difference between the 5th & 6th gen?

You don't have your bike lowered or have flipped the triangle plates have you?

There is another member TC who says he has great numbers with an F4i shock & 900lb spring.

BR

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The last time I checked the numbers on my street 02 Vtec w/Ohlins shock and a 19kg(1065lb) spring I got:

Free Sag: 12mm

Rider Sag: 32mm

This is pretty damn close, but I'm trying the 1200lb spring this time on this Penske that was suppose go on the Track Vtec.

post-301-12643835053_thumb.jpg

BR

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Now let me get this straight - you're saying if the springs are too soft, then in order to get the rider sag (suspension positition of rider sitting on bike minus position of bike with suspension fully extended?) correct, there's so much preload wound on that the spring is effectively topped out?

The shock is topped out in this situation (no rider on bike).

Yeah, that's what I said meant. :unsure:

Bailey Rock: as for the damping being at zero, no - I didn't do that. I can't do it with the front anyway, so I don't think it's gonna be super critical. I just bounced the bike a few times and checked the measurements several times to make sure it was consistent.

BTW - it's unbelievable how compliant the front end is. With the Ohlins oil, and the work that was done to make sure the internals were set up right (concentricity, checking components, etc.) there's almost zero stiction. I guess to give the Elka a fair go, I should really drop the rear swingarm and remove linkages etc and check everything's properly lubed and lined up. (I did remove the dogbone, check the bushes, lubed everything, but I wasn't a perfectionist like the Ohlins guy was.

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Yeah, that's what I said meant. :huh:

Bailey Rock: as for the damping being at zero, no - I didn't do that. I can't do it with the front anyway, so I don't think it's gonna be super critical. I just bounced the bike a few times and checked the measurements several times to make sure it was consistent.

BTW - it's unbelievable how compliant the front end is. With the Ohlins oil, and the work that was done to make sure the internals were set up right (concentricity, checking components, etc.) there's almost zero stiction. I guess to give the Elka a fair go, I should really drop the rear swingarm and remove linkages etc and check everything's properly lubed and lined up. (I did remove the dogbone, check the bushes, lubed everything, but I wasn't a perfectionist like the Ohlins guy was.

Yeah, can't do anything about a non-adjustable front fork, but on the rear w/aftermarket fully adjust shock it's better to Not have any Damping interfering with your sag check. :unsure:

Avg. 3 measurements per end is a great way to go.

BTW have you just bounced on the back of your bike to check movement, then backed off comp fully and do it again?

That tells you what the spring alone feels like. It took me a while to realize I had my comp set too stiff for the longest time, when I finally backed it off a decent amount and let the spring work it felt much better.

Remember the Springs hold the bike off the ground, the Damping controls spring osolation(bouncing) and weight transitions.

BR

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He's coming up here in a few weeks, and is going to check the bike out then. He's offered to replace the spring (if he can get one to fit) and change the valving on the Elka, if it looks like being necessary.

You can't ask for anything more! I look forward to seeing what he does & says. I would also like to know the number on your spring.

PS don't forget, when check sag you should basically have rebound/comp settings on zero(full soft) so that your only measuring Spring and not any effect of damping. :unsure:

BTW I don't think there is, but is there any ratio difference between the 5th & 6th gen?

You don't have your bike lowered or have flipped the triangle plates have you?

There is another member TC who says he has great numbers with an F4i shock & 900lb spring.

BR

FYI...not so sure about the 900 lber....after riding the ohlin on the track bike, and getting my front revalved on the VFR, i am starting to see the difference...i have no free sag and the ride is harsh, so i believe it isn't set up just right. yes, much better then stock for sure, but i am almost convince of the need for the 1200 lb spring as i weigh in at 230.

i hope to find the time to try it before spring gets here

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You know one thing that we don't seem to be talking about is the bike height in relation to each end. I noticed when I installed my shock it was a bit taller at first than stock and it loaded the front end quite a bit more than being in the what I think is stock position now. My free sag numbers changed considerably after the minor adjustment. When were chasing millimeters in the quest of supreme balance should we also be assuring that front to back things are copacetic? I know the manual states the height of the forks but what about the rear?

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Once you get the correct rear spring on a bike, I think you will be surprised at how little compression damping you will need. I run a double action Penske on my 6th Gen and I run my compression knob at the first position. I weigh 255# and run a 1300# spring.

As far as the question about a spring compressor goes, remember that a Penske simply unscrews in a sense. You back off all of the preload on the spring, then you lift the bottom spring perch about a quarter of an inch and there is a groove with a wire clip in it. (Yeah, exactly what I thought the first time I saw it). Take the wire ring off, and the bottom spring perch slides right off. Depending on which end eyelet you have, sometimes the spring perch has a large enough hole in it to slide right over the bottom bolt up eyelet. Otherwise, you'll have to remove the eyelet to get the spring perch off.

One last thought from this hillbilly and I'll shut up for an hour or two: If you have a Penske, make sure you are running a Torrington radial bearing on top of the spring between the spring and the adjusting collar. It makes turning the preload adjustment collar so much easier. I don't know enough about Ohlins and Elka's to know if a Torrington radial bearing would work on them. I assume you could find one.

Believe it or not, the place to find the radial bearings quick and cheap is Amazon.com.

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BTW have you just bounced on the back of your bike to check movement, then backed off comp fully and do it again?

Nope, but I was riding with no compression damping for a while. When I dialled in the rebound adjustment on the shock, I bcked off the compression damping to nothing, then rode on one of the nearby goat tracks at the same speed, same route each time, making one or two click adjustments on the rebound until it seemed to get worse, then went back to a previous setting.

That is the best way to do it and learn it IMO! :ph34r:

Currently the compression damping is at less than one-third from full soft. I did have it even softer, but found that when I was finishing turns the back tyre was spinning up on the exit, because it was compressing too readily as the torque loaded the rear spring, then extending again too fast.

"then extending again too fast" that is from Not enough Rebound!

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Doofus here again, coming back for more foot-in-mouth. :goofy:

Whelp, here's what.

Front: when the forks went back for the springs to be changed and damping recalibrated, the technicians rushed thejob, and didn't cut new spacers for the shorter Ohlins springs. So... to get the preload in the ballpark, I had to wind them in a long way. I didn't want to end up with no adjustment left, so I ended up with not enough preload in the front. This morning I wound in another turn: much betterer. :cool: When I have some spare time, I'll cut some new spacers.

Rear: I haven't checked it carefully (too many vehicles in the garage, not enough space, not enough time), but my quick check of the preload made me realise the free sag was a bit on the low side (Racetech CKT recommended 10-20mm, and it was barely 12). So, I wound that off by about a turn. It now feels more compliant to my untrained butt. I'll check that properly (winding the damping off to zero, BR!), and when that's set, at least I'll have a proper base setting to work from with setting up rebound and compression.

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Tossing this in from another thread.

View PostWistrick, on 30 January 2010 - 10:18 AM, said:

The rate of the spring is critical. If desired Rider Sag is 35mm and desired rider contribution to the sag is 15mm, then accordingly Free Sag should be 20mm. Any spring will give you 35mm of Rider Sag, given some preload position, but only one spring (rate) will also give 20mm Free Sag with the same preload position. In other words, given specific goal numbers, only one correct spring rate exists.

Dan

:fing02: So true Dan, this is the point Pete & I keep trying to get across to everyone! Most people think if you can get desired Rider Sag then the Spring is correct, but just as you've mentioned rider sag is meaningless for calculating correct spring rates w/o also having the desired Free sag numbers!

The other fact is that just because some Tuner or even Ohlins or Penske says you need "....lb spring" does Not mean it's the correct one unless you get Both the desired numbers for Free & Rider Sag! Elka sent many of our members new shocks with the wrong spring rates on them and now if anyone ever bothered to check the numbers they have found them to be wrong and are needing new springs! Of course a New Aftermarket shock will feel better than a stock VFR shock, even with the wrong spring, but you are paying for the correct spring rate and Most are Not getting it!

I've seen different Pro's suggest for our members VFR's rear spring rates from 800lb to 1400lb springs for the same 190lb rider! :blink: That's insane! There is only one correct rate for that rider on his VFR and every other spring rate recommendation is WRONG whether it's Ben Speis, Ohlins, Penske, Me or the best tuner in your country telling you so.

The ONLY way to know if the spring rate is correct is on the bike and checking both Free & Rider Sag, there is no other way!

I've said this in other threads, I think the problem is that most Pro's have a faulty spring rate calculator for the VFR model only and constantly come up with these bogus numbers. Almost always Too soft. :dry:

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Also as per these numbers that Dan posted my current 1100# spring is bang on. 35mm with 7mm free.

Jason,

From what I'm understanding so far is that yes 7mm free sag might be acceptable, but for street use and running 35mm of rider sag, I think we/you should also be running more Free sag(towards the higher end of scale).

I think Ohlins calls for 10-20 free sag for street use, I run 5-10mm free on the Race bike w/25mm rider sag.

The reality is that your bike should feel great as is, but may work even better with more free sag like 10-15mm. This will take a stiffer spring, why not just slap the 1200lb on there and check your numbers. :fing02:

BR

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Also as per these numbers that Dan posted my current 1100# spring is bang on. 35mm with 7mm free.

Jason,

From what I'm understanding so far is that yes 7mm free sag might be acceptable, but for street use and running 35mm of rider sag, I think we/you should also be running more Free sag(towards the higher end of scale).

I think Ohlins calls for 10-20 free sag for street use, I run 5-10mm free on the Race bike w/25mm rider sag.

The reality is that your bike should feel great as is, but may work even better with more free sag like 10-15mm. This will take a stiffer spring, why not just slap the 1200lb on there and check your numbers. :fing02:

BR

I'll for sure throw in the 1200# Kevin but I thought since were in a suspension playing mood that I would ride the 1100# and get a "feel" so when I switch to the 1200# I can actually say that it made a difference, and "this is what it did for me". If you think the 7mm is unsafe for the street then I can change to the 1200# asap or go to about 37mm. The 1100# felt good and not too firm so I need to be able to confirm with myself that when I put in the 1200# it isn't going to make it more firm than what I would like.

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I'll for sure throw in the 1200# Kevin but I thought since were in a suspension playing mood that I would ride the 1100# and get a "feel" so when I switch to the 1200# I can actually say that it made a difference, and "this is what it did for me". If you think the 7mm is unsafe for the street then I can change to the 1200# asap or go to about 37mm. The 1100# felt good and not too firm so I need to be able to confirm with myself that when I put in the 1200# it isn't going to make it more firm than what I would like.

Jason,

I don't think it's unsafe at all, hell there's hundreds of Viffer owners running Zero Free sag because they've cranked it all out with pre-load trying to get decent rider sag numbers with too soft or stock springs. :fing02:

I do think running zero free sag could be an issue in the right situation causing loss of traction or other negative problem.

Like I said your set-up is probably better than 90% of VFR owners out there you are right in there, I just think it could be slightly better with the 1200 lb spring and you don't even have to buy one. I'm really only suggesting the change because you already have the spring tongue.gif

BR

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Maybe I'm not thinking straight... but if he were after MORE free sag for street use, wouldn't that mean a SOFTER spring? if he uses a stiffer one it'll hold the bike up higher and sag less... or am I really going mad with so many exams?? :fing02:

Yeah, it's counter intuitive really, I think it's best explained in Trevitt's book, "Sportbike Suspension ..."

If your spring is too soft you end up having to crank in a whole bunch of preload to achieve desired Rider Sag, this results in a Topped Out shock w/no Free sag. A firmer spring requires less pre-load to achieve desired Rider Sag leaving free movement. Something like that! :fing02:

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Let's look at it in a reverse context to understand the counter intuitiveness of it:

Suppose you had a spring (too soft on your bike) and the first thing you did was set the preload for "bike only" sag of say 8-10 mm. Imagine how much rider sag you would have with that set-up once you sat on the bike.

I'm 170lbs and race tech recommended a .976 kg/mm from spring and 14.95 (basically stock) rear spring. seems fishy compared to Baily's springs. where is the best place to buy springs?

Hoerr Racing Products (it's pronounced Hare - not whore).

http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?tpc=Hyperco_Springs_and_Hydraulic_Spring_Perchs&form_cat_id=504,41,363&action=category

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Me - 220lbs no gear. I wear full textile top to bottom. 07 RWB VFR

Parts

Elka 3-Way with remote pre-load - Rear spring rate - 1100lb or 19.6kg (STOCK 15.3kg) 28% increase.

FRSP S3732095 RT Front Fork Spring 36.7x34.5x315 .95kg from RaceTech (STOCK .74kg) with valving (see below) to compensate for the increased spring rate. 28% increase.

RaceTech

G2-R Gold Valve Kit - G2-R Next Generation Compression Kit

FMGV S2040G

Fork Rebound HFR Gold Valve Kit-Racing (Hi-Frequency Response Race Rebound Gold Valve)

FRGV SR2001

Stock Oil Weight = Honda SS-8 (10wt)

New Oil Weight = Maxima 5wt HP Fork Oil (RaceTech recommended US1 which is 2.5wt - 5wt from what I can tell)

Numbers

(with full gear, 3/4 full tank)...

Front:

Sag - 35 mm (3 lines exposed on the pre-load adjuster)

Free Sag - 15mm, down 7mm.

Rear:

Sag - 35 mm (23 out of 52 available clicks in on the pre-load)

Free Sag - 7mm (With a 1200# rear spring I would guess my free sag could be increased to 15mm or so at 35mm rider sag)

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I will officially throw out a guess of 3-5/52 clicks, with 15mm free sag at 35mm rider sag. But were going to have to wait for a month or so.

Well my question then is, what happens if you lose 5 lbs, or ride without all the gear all the time? It seems that doesn't leave you much adjustment. I know I'm going to lose those last 10 lbs. real soon. :blink:

Maybe Baily/Pete can chime in on this. I would think you wouldn't want to go below 1/4-1/3 of the preload range, just to retain some flexibility?

If you get the proper spring rate right the first time, I don't think 10-20 rider lbs will Blow you out of the proper range vs running a spring several hundred pounds off or to soft on us heavier guys. :ph34r:

You'll easily have 40 lb swings on almost every ride with fuel weight alone! :fing02:

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You'll easily have 40 lb swings on almost every ride with fuel weight alone! :cool:

Yeah, that's my excuse for running a 1300# spring and I'm sticking to it. Kevin doesn't say I'm overweight, he just says I have a large mass. The man's a real gentleman. :wheel:

20# or 30# weight loss (or gain) one way or the other isn't going to make a big deal. What Kevin and I are getting at is that 99% of the suspension gurus are so far off base on what spring is needed.

Someone back up the line made the comment about we wouldn't believe how stiff a spring they run and how little preload they have. I'm not surprised at all. Once you hit on the correct spring, you will dial it in so little preload it's unbelievable. I like the super light suspension fluid also.

The correct spring requires very little preloading. If you have to keep cranking on the adjuster to get your rider sag numbers correct, you're way off on your spring rate.

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I'm the same as Jason. 220lbs with no gear. I got an Ohlins rear shock with a 19.36Kg (1085lbs) spring. When I first installed the shock with everything backed out. I had 9mm free sag and 39mm rider sag. I had 9 turns on the adjuster to get 7mm free sag, and 35mm rider sag. After reading this thread, I don't feel I was too far off with my spring choice. You all agree?

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I'm the same as Jason. 220lbs with no gear. I got an Ohlins rear shock with a 19.36Kg (1085lbs) spring. When I first installed the shock with everything backed out. I had 9mm free sag and 39mm rider sag. I had 9 turns on the adjuster to get 7mm free sag, and 35mm rider sag. After reading this thread, I don't feel I was too far off with my spring choice. You all agree?

Yes, you are right in range. Maybe slightly low on the spring rate, but close enough to not spend another $100 on another spring. Unlike Jason who has a 1200lb to slap on his, I'd like to see what numbers he gets after that change. :fing02:

I weigh 190 and us the same 19kg spring.

BR

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I'm the same as Jason. 220lbs with no gear. I got an Ohlins rear shock with a 19.36Kg (1085lbs) spring. When I first installed the shock with everything backed out. I had 9mm free sag and 39mm rider sag. I had 9 turns on the adjuster to get 7mm free sag, and 35mm rider sag. After reading this thread, I don't feel I was too far off with my spring choice. You all agree?

Yes, you are right in range. Maybe slightly low on the spring rate, but close enough to not spend another $100 on another spring. Unlike Jason who has a 1200lb to slap on his, I'd like to see what numbers he gets after that change. :rolleyes:

I weigh 190 and us the same 19kg spring.

BR

I got my shock back after the leak and Elka did good by me. Quick free service. I stuck it back in with the 1100# and got 35mm with 9mm free. I also checked the numbers with my bags on and loaded and only lost 3mm of sag. 3 clicks cured that on the pre-loaded.

I'll put the 1200# in at the end of the month Maybe and most likely keep it in. Right now the ride is amazingly awesome, can't believe it's so nice after a 28% increase in spring rate. Good valving makes all the difference.

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I'm the same as Jason. 220lbs with no gear. I got an Ohlins rear shock with a 19.36Kg (1085lbs) spring. When I first installed the shock with everything backed out. I had 9mm free sag and 39mm rider sag. I had 9 turns on the adjuster to get 7mm free sag, and 35mm rider sag. After reading this thread, I don't feel I was too far off with my spring choice. You all agree?

Yes, you are right in range. Maybe slightly low on the spring rate, but close enough to not spend another $100 on another spring. Unlike Jason who has a 1200lb to slap on his, I'd like to see what numbers he gets after that change. :rolleyes:

I weigh 190 and us the same 19kg spring.

BR

I got my shock back after the leak and Elka did good by me. Quick free service. I stuck it back in with the 1100# and got 35mm with 9mm free. I also checked the numbers with my bags on and loaded and only lost 3mm of sag. 3 clicks cured that on the pre-loaded.

I'll put the 1200# in at the end of the month Maybe and most likely keep it in. Right now the ride is amazingly awesome, can't believe it's so nice after a 28% increase in spring rate. Good valving makes all the difference.

Great, glad Elka did you right Jason. :fing02:

I fought the same type attitude about thinking that a heavier spring would make my ride harsh! It does not, it's valving that effects harshness. Running the proper spring rate only make the bike work for your weight, valving is whats needed to smooth things out! wink.gif

BR

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Just to keep the thread alive... Last year on my 4th gen, I revalved my forks with Racetech gold compression and rebound and the suggested (on Racetech site) .95 front springs. I also upgraded to the 929 rear shock. Found out the spring was too soft when I couldn't get a decent sag with rider. At the time I weighed about 185lb.

Over the winter, I have lost about 40lbs and am now down to a much healthier 145lb (I'm 5"7). I am going to get Jamie D. to change my rear spring to a harder rate, probably 19kgs to balance out the bike. I am just wondering if the whole thing is going to be too stiffly sprung for my now trimmer weight. Maybe I should just carry a bunch of water in my saddle bags? smile.gif

Honestly, I'd rather not have to disassemble the forks again, change springs, re-valve to match, etc. I want the easy button... I just don't know if there is one. Any opinions?

I mostly commute, but tend to ride fairly aggressively.

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I fought the same type attitude about thinking that a heavier spring would make my ride harsh! It does not, it's valving that effects harshness. Running the proper spring rate only make the bike work for your weight, valving is whats needed to smooth things out! wink.gif

BR

Well put Kevin. :rolleyes:

The springs are the "suspension" of the motorcycle. The shock absorber (be it an actual shock or the fork valving) simply controls the dynamics of the spring.

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