Indicator issue - relay?

[0xBERNDOG]

Hiya,

 

I'm trying to diagnose an issue with my indicators on my 1999 VFR800F

 

Symptoms: both indicator lights are always iluminated on the dashboard when the headlights are on, and the flasher relay seems to "stick"

Both sides are affected

 

Attempts to fix:

 

1) I actually replaced the flasher relay, although the part was used from Ebay (Mitsuba FR-3303)

2) I've just cleaned the contacts (WD-40 contact cleaner) + relubed (silicone grease) the turn signal switch

 

Video of the issue, you can the (relay?) buzzing when it sticks

 

Would love some suggestions, was trying to avoid taking it to a garage so that I could get a bit more hands-on

 

Edit: realised this is probably the wrong forum, sorry I'm new here

[Lorne]

This is a good place to post a 5th gen problem.

 

Check all four turn signal lights. Remove them one at a time and power up your VFR to see if it behaves the same no matter which bulb you've removed.

There may also be a grounding issue, a not uncommon trouble on 5th gens. Hopefully, someone will chime up with the wiring harness location where a number of ground (green) wires are joined together.

[Grum]

Grab yourself a piece of wire, firmly plant one end to the Battery Negative. Then with the other end see if you can poke that into the Green Ground wire at the turn Relay connector. If the relay and blinkers operate normally then you've confirmed a bad Ground. Failing that make sure you measure a good 12v at the turn Relay Black/Brown especially with a turn selected.

 

"Symptoms: both indicator lights are always iluminated on the dashboard when the headlights are on" . Check for broken or corroded copper tracks within your instrument panel, especially the lower tracks.

 

 

 

[0xBERNDOG]

I haven't had a chance to investigate this issue more, but I have noticed another symptom

 

Revving the engine influences the indicators, both sides equally

 

 

 

When I get time I'll check the relay supply and ground

[Grum]

What is the age and state of your battery?

Make sure battery terminals are clean and tight.

 

Measure your charging voltage at idle and 5000 rpm, should be around 13.5 to 14.5 volts.

[0xBERNDOG]

I replaced battery + R/R (both brand new) in April 2024, but I'll check the voltages in case they've gone bad for some reason

[Grum]

On 8/10/2024 at 5:26 AM, 0xBERNDOG said:

1) I actually replaced the flasher relay, although the part was used from Ebay (Mitsuba FR-3303)

 

I think your second video tells a different story. I'm highly suspicious of the Trun Relay you've fittedI Are you saying its a Second Hand Used unit from Ebay?

Might be worth refitting the original if you still have it, or a brand new one! OR you might have a horribly varying charging voltage, you really need to verify this ASAP.

 

- First and foremost, a simple Test as mentioned - Check your charging voltage. Make sure its stable and not radically varying like the Turn Signals with rpm changes.

- Then, do the voltage and ground checks at the Turn Relay as suggested. If the Voltage and Ground are good, then you need to fit a Known Good Turn Relay and reassess. 

 

Assume you haven't recently changed any indicator globes?  Very important that the turn indicator globes are all of the correct type and wattage. See attached, the item specifies 4x21w Globes, this also matches the bikes wiring diagram for the globe wattage.

 

Just for Info - The Turn Relay has no intelligence of Left or Right and has power applied to it whenever Ignition is Switched ON. Once a turn is actioned by the turn switch, be it left or right the circuit is completed by the left or right globes causing the Relay to flash, its flash rate is dependant on the parallel load of the front and rear globes, thus the importance of the globes being correct type and wattage for ALL four globes.

[JZH]

This IS a VFR...

 

Might want to start with the charging system.  Do the voltage tests with a fully charged, known-good battery.  That video frightens me!

 

Ciao,

 

JZH

[Terry]

I'm with JZH on this. The flash rate has a lot to do with the voltage vs the bulb resistance relationship, and one of these is changing dramatically as the engine is revved. Check this smartly as it has the appearance of a regulator failure leading to over-voltage which can cook all sorts of bits including the battery and the ECM. If the voltage across the battery is more than 14.8V when the engine is revved you could be in trouble. 

[0xBERNDOG]

Really good discussion, I appreciate the inputs 

 

My multimeter is reading this across the battery:

 

13V @ 5000rpm (stable)

13.1V @ idle (fluctuating +-0.1V)

 

Is it worth getting the oscilloscope out to see how stable it really is? Seems to be a bit low?

[0xBERNDOG]

Continuity between the relay ground and live are good, as are the voltages 

 

I noticed that the voltages actually drop as I rev (like you see in my previous post) so the flashing issue could be because it isn't getting enough voltage to switch reliably

 

Installing a solid state relay fixes the flashing issue, which backs up this theory but only hides the problem 

 

Could this be an alternator issue, or R/R?

[0xBERNDOG]

Following my suspicion of the alternator, we may be onto a winner here

[vfrpilot28]

At least you discovered it and you were not out of town on a trip.  In a remote location etc.  I would suggest going with OEM in reference to most parts.  Of course, the bearings, suspension, and R/R are much better aftermarket.  I have the VFRness on mine, but I would ditch those factory connectors as they are a weak point.  

[0xBERNDOG]

Alternator wires have now been hard wired to the RR, but of course this is probably just the initial cause of the problem and not the remaining issue(s)

 

Issue with the dash still occurs. Will see if I can find my battery charger to make sure that's not contributing

 

Worst case I'm thinking I can pull out my oscilliscope to inspect the voltage. The short could have damaged any number of things I guess (most likely the RR?)

 

Close to saying fuck it, and getting a new stator, new RR, new battery, VFRness. Wanna do some sanity checks first though before committing to that job

[bmart]

Were the wires clean before the hard wiring (soldered, I'm guessing)? Mine were corroded and needed t be cut back with a new length added to each so that it wouldn't keep failing. 

 

 

[0xBERNDOG]

Yeah, I cut back a pretty decent chunk to fresh wire and spliced in some 12AWG. In hindsight I should've tested the stator's resistances before hard wiring them though

[0xBERNDOG]

I appreciate that I'm treating this thread a bit like a personal blog. I'm going to have a look at the dashboard PCB as my next priority, I suspect that I had 2 unrelated issues going at once (the stator wires burnt + bad PCB as suggested previously)

 

If it's the PCB then I'm going to assess the feasibility of producing my own replacement. Much cheaper than a new dash, but something that you can't buy?

[0xBERNDOG]

Some significant corrosion to the highlighted areas. Next step is to get out the bench power supply and see if the problem persists off the bike -- this would confirm that the PCB is the cause

 

No signs of short circuits or of physically damaged traces (except for the corrosion)

[0xBERNDOG]

This part of the trace is so corroded that the connection is broken. It's a common ground for the indicator bulbs

 

I've seen enough to justify remaking the PCB. At the very least I find it enjoyable, and I've never had a reason to make a flexible PCB until now

[Grum]

On 9/8/2024 at 6:46 AM, 0xBERNDOG said:

This part of the trace is so corroded that the connection is broken. It's a common ground for the indicator bulbs

 

I've seen enough to justify remaking the PCB. At the very least I find it enjoyable, and I've never had a reason to make a flexible PCB until now

 

Remake a whole PCB! Why not just simply bridge the open circuit tracks and you're done? The rest of the PCB looks pretty good to me. YMMV!

[Mohawk]

Not sure if it's still available but RS used to do track pens. One insulating, one conductive. Find your break draw an insulation track between good points, draw conductor over this & seal with another insulation cover. Great for low current PCB's & no soldering required. 

[0xBERNDOG]

15 hours ago, Grum said:

 

Remake a whole PCB! Why not just simply bridge the open circuit tracks and you're done? The rest of the PCB looks pretty good to me. YMMV!

 

Partly for fun, I'm much more of an electrical guy than mechanical so it's up my street. If it all goes to shit I can always fallback to a more traditional repair job

 

I've had maybe an hour each day to work on it and it's coming together nicely, I've got the outline + mounting holes all in place. Haven't done any of the traces yet. Should be a super tidy looking PCB when it's made (hopefully)

[JZH]

Interesting.  Is there someplace you can have them made from your drawing?  I once used PCBWay to get some LED dome light circuit boards made.  Came out well.  

 

Ciao,

 

JZH

[0xBERNDOG]

I've just submitted an order to jlcpcb. I've had good success with them in the past

 

Here's the board now, will post pics/try it out once it arrives

[JZH]

I'd just like to emphasise that it is really, really cool that you're doing this.  There are ways to make parts for our bikes even after all the OEM parts are gone, and fortunately there are more and more ways for enthusiasts to make certain parts themselves, e.g., 3D printing and CNC machining.  We're entering a brave new world of trying to keep our ICE-vehicles going long after the OEMs have abandoned them.

 

Ciao,

 

JZH