Member Contributer Grum Posted March 29, 2023 Member Contributer Share Posted March 29, 2023 On 3/29/2023 at 4:26 PM, DannoXYZ said: 1. measure voltage at starter-solenoid M-terminal, volts = ??? 2. measure voltage at starter-solenoid M-terminal when pushing start-button, volts = ??? Hi Danno. I think you mean in step 1 to measure the B terminal volts. Typo error perhaps. Seeing Tony is only measuring 3.56v at the starter motor (effectively the M Terminal of the Relay, But he hasn't measured this yet!) with Starter Button pressed, and 12.52v at the B terminal and assuming his cable continuity is possibly ok. Then most likley the main contacts of his Amazon purchased Starter Relay are burnt out/high resistance. That's also assuming the Starter Relay coil is seeing near battery voltage when the Starter button is pressed, this has not been checked yet!! Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyHy Posted March 29, 2023 Author Share Posted March 29, 2023 OK thanks for the help. I replaced the bike battery with a fresh one that has 13.76 volts. I tested the starter solenoid B terminal and these are the results. Voltage of B terminal is 13.68 and voltage of B terminal when pushing start-button is 13.34. I also tested the starter motor and with the negative on the negative terminal of the battery and it was reading 0.0 volts when pushing the start button now. I'm not sure why that changed from the 3 or 4 volts from before because I did not change anything but I still think the cable between the starter solenoid and starter motor is the problem. Also if you think checking the starter relay coil is a good idea then I will do that as well. I'll have to look up how to do that but if you have any suggestions that would be welcome as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer jefferson Posted March 29, 2023 Member Contributer Share Posted March 29, 2023 What is the voltage on the M terminal when you press the start button? Could be not making it through the relay. I would think a cable that was passing no voltage would be pretty obviously damaged or corroded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer bmart Posted March 29, 2023 Member Contributer Share Posted March 29, 2023 I keep getting fooled by this title, and think it is similar to H-D click vs. squid click. A problem with growing up in the 80s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyHy Posted March 29, 2023 Author Share Posted March 29, 2023 44 minutes ago, jefferson said: What is the voltage on the M terminal when you press the start button? Could be not making it through the relay. I would think a cable that was passing no voltage would be pretty obviously damaged or corroded. When I had the negative of the voltmeter on the negative terminal of the battery and the positive on the M terminal and when I pressed the start button it had 13.16 volts. When I looked at the cable connection it only looked like thre was normal weathering on it from being sitting and outside but I can check again. I'm wondering if I have to find a way to take the whole cable out or if I can just check the connections from the relay and starter motor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer jefferson Posted March 30, 2023 Member Contributer Share Posted March 30, 2023 Checking those connections should have been one of the first things you did. Take them apart and clean them well until everything is shiny and put them back together tight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted March 30, 2023 Member Contributer Share Posted March 30, 2023 5 hours ago, TonyHy said: When I had the negative of the voltmeter on the negative terminal of the battery and the positive on the M terminal and when I pressed the start button it had 13.16 volts. When I looked at the cable connection it only looked like thre was normal weathering on it from being sitting and outside but I can check again. I'm wondering if I have to find a way to take the whole cable out or if I can just check the connections from the relay and starter motor. This is getting frustrating!!! What appears to be a simple fault to diagnose has become very messy, with a fair amount of time and effort wasted! Tony, its been mentioned previously a few times to measure the voltage at the M terminal and only now you're stating you are seeing battery voltage on the M terminal when starter button is pressed. And only seeing 3 odd volts at the motor. You've now (most likley) confirmed your Starter Relay is ok! This means your main power lead from the relay to the starter motor is faulty. A continuity check with a your meter on ohms might confirm this. Thoroughly check this cable for good conections and for any breaks or damage! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer DannoXYZ Posted March 30, 2023 Member Contributer Share Posted March 30, 2023 15 hours ago, Grum said: Hi Danno. I think you mean in step 1 to measure the B terminal volts. Typo error perhaps. Seeing Tony is only measuring 3.56v at the starter motor (effectively the M Terminal of the Relay) with Starter Button pressed, and 12.52v at the B terminal and assuming his cable continuity is possibly ok. Then most likley the main contacts of his Amazon purchased Starter Relay are burnt out/high resistance. That's also assuming the Starter Relay coil is seeing near battery voltage when the Starter button is pressed, this has not been checked yet!! Cheers. Nope, he's already measured full battery-voltage at B-terminal previously. So now I want him to measure M-terminal with starter-soleniod OFF, then ON. When he sees he gets full battery-voltage on M-terminal when pushing start-button, he'll stop wasting time thinking it's solenoid problem. Obviously if he's got full-battery voltage at beginning of starter power-cable and only 3v at other end of exact same cable, conclusion must be that cable is bad? Especially if he's already bypassed that cable by connecting jump-cables directly to starter and it runs!!! He's still not believing his measurements for some reason... When cables go bad, there NOTHING that shows it from outside. Measurements are only way to determine they're bad. Replacing them will solve all problems. Not sure what he's waiting on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted March 30, 2023 Member Contributer Share Posted March 30, 2023 2 minutes ago, DannoXYZ said: Nope, he's already measured full battery-voltage at B-terminal previously. So now I want him to measure M-terminal with starter-soleniod OFF, then ON. Ok but measuring the M terminal with power off, or no Starter button pressed means No Volts.!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer DannoXYZ Posted March 30, 2023 Member Contributer Share Posted March 30, 2023 1 hour ago, Grum said: Ok but measuring the M terminal with power off, or no Starter button pressed means No Volts.!! Exactly! Seeing zero volts changing to battery-voltage when start-button is pressed will give him undeniable proof that solenoid is Ok. Get off that tangent and look at real problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer DannoXYZ Posted March 30, 2023 Member Contributer Share Posted March 30, 2023 Summary of data we have: 1. new battery = 13.76v 2. input B-terminal of solenoid = 13.68v 3. start-button pressed, input B-terminal of solenoid = 13.34v 4. start-button pressed, output M-terminal of solenoid = 13.16v also input of starter cable 5. start-button pressed, output end of starter cable = 0v, previously 3.56v Now the problem is pretty obvious!!! Corroded/frayed starter cable has barely been hanging on. Now it's finally broken through and transmits ZERO power across. I don't understand the wishy-washyness! 9 hours ago, TonyHy said: When I looked at the cable connection it only looked like thre was normal weathering on it from being sitting and outside but I can check again. I'm wondering if I have to find a way to take the whole cable out or if I can just check the connections from the relay and starter motor. Unless you're Superman and can see electrons moving inside wires, there's ABSOLUTELY ZERO way to just look at a cable and determine its ability to conduct electricity. That's why we have instruments to detect and measure things our senses can't. Infrared and ultraviolet sensors to see things out eyes can't pick up. Thermometers to accurate measure temperatures our skin can barely differentiate. There's no way a human can determine how well a wire can conduct electricity without instruments. You've already done the measurements and determined cable is bad. Just replace it with new one and have working bike already!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyHy Posted March 30, 2023 Author Share Posted March 30, 2023 OK will do. I just want to be 100% sure what the issue is before I accidently waste money on something I didn't need. Thank you all for your help I will order a new cable, replace it, and get this bike running again. I will post back on here when I receive the cable and when the bike is running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted March 30, 2023 Member Contributer Share Posted March 30, 2023 3 hours ago, TonyHy said: OK will do. I just want to be 100% sure what the issue is before I accidently waste money on something I didn't need. Thank you all for your help I will order a new cable, replace it, and get this bike running again. I will post back on here when I receive the cable and when the bike is running. Checked Partzilla.com for 5gen Starter Cable, Part No. 32410-MBG-000 = No longer available. Suggest removing what you have and take it to any auto electrician who should be able to make one up for you. Perhaps any auto parts supplier retail store might have a suitable off the shelf cable or advise you where to get one made up. However, you still need to confirm you have good or bad connections either end of the cable OR the cable is damaged requiring replacement. Bit of a shame Tony, just a few simple 5 minute voltage checks would have saved you all the trouble of removing the clutch cover and starter gears, jumper starting, battery concerns, delays etc. Your multimeter is your best friend when working with any electrical issue, you just need to know how to use it and have a basic understanding of what you're working with. As Danno rightly states general comments like Switches, Fuses, Connections, Connectors, Wiring, Grounds, Battery etc. "Look Good" seriously means Jack Shit without measuring. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeeEffArah Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 If it is the starter cable, check ebay as seems were a couple used ones for like $7.00. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer DannoXYZ Posted March 30, 2023 Member Contributer Share Posted March 30, 2023 Another source for starter-cables is auto-parts stores. Bring in your old dead cable and line it up with their wide selections. Usually find one that fits perfectly for around $15. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyHy Posted April 3, 2023 Author Share Posted April 3, 2023 Ok so I got the new starter cable and got that all set up so now the starter spins freely when I push the starter-button. But now of course there is another issue where when I put all the gears back and try to starter-button again the starter motor spins an inch and then stops. When I measured the volts, the battery, starter solenoid and the starter motor all showed 6.24 volts when pressing the starter button. IMG-5816.MOV This is what happens when I press the starter-button. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer jefferson Posted April 3, 2023 Member Contributer Share Posted April 3, 2023 Pull the starter and take it apart. It may have oil in it and need to be cleaned and the brushes and commutator shined up. It may need a new seal in the snout of the starter to keep oil out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer DannoXYZ Posted April 3, 2023 Member Contributer Share Posted April 3, 2023 Spin engine by hand. Make sure it completes 2-revolutions without banging pistons into valves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted April 3, 2023 Member Contributer Share Posted April 3, 2023 Question for the more experienced? Having the Idler and Reduction Gear not properly supported with the housing cover not fitted as per the OP's video. Is there any chance the gears may not mesh correctly and cause the Starter Motor to jam? Just wondering! AND Tony, perhaps you could share with us what was actually the fault with the Starter cable! Be interesting to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer jefferson Posted April 4, 2023 Member Contributer Share Posted April 4, 2023 I'm not going to say I'm more experienced, but what you say is entirely plausible. Be really easy to stick the cover on real quick and see if that makes any difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyHy Posted April 4, 2023 Author Share Posted April 4, 2023 3 hours ago, jefferson said: Pull the starter and take it apart. It may have oil in it and need to be cleaned and the brushes and commutator shined up. It may need a new seal in the snout of the starter to keep oil out. I took out the small gear connecting the starter to the bigger gears and with the starter by itself it spun perfectly but if you think that it could be a problem I could still take it apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyHy Posted April 4, 2023 Author Share Posted April 4, 2023 3 hours ago, DannoXYZ said: Spin engine by hand. Make sure it completes 2-revolutions without banging pistons into valves. If you dont mind could you tell me exactly where to try to hand spin the engine because I dont want to try tp spin anything that shouldn't be moving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyHy Posted April 4, 2023 Author Share Posted April 4, 2023 3 hours ago, Grum said: Question for the more experienced? Having the Idler and Reduction Gear not properly supported with the housing cover not fitted as per the OP's video. Is there any chance the gears may not mesh correctly and cause the Starter Motor to jam? Just wondering! AND Tony, perhaps you could share with us what was actually the fault with the Starter cable! Be interesting to know. Honestly I'm still not sure why the starter cable was faulty. I looked over it when I took it out of the bike and it didn't look bad only thing it could be is weathering on the copper because there was a a little bit exposed on both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyHy Posted April 4, 2023 Author Share Posted April 4, 2023 20 minutes ago, jefferson said: I'm not going to say I'm more experienced, but what you say is entirely plausible. Be really easy to stick the cover on real quick and see if that makes any difference. Yes I tried after with the cover on and that did not make a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Terry Posted April 4, 2023 Member Contributer Share Posted April 4, 2023 6 minutes ago, TonyHy said: If you dont mind could you tell me exactly where to try to hand spin the engine because I dont want to try tp spin anything that shouldn't be moving. Unscrew the inspection port in the clutch cover and put a socket onto the nut on the end of the crank. It should spin over clockwise smoothly with just some resistance from the compression (If the spark plugs are installed). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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