WokkaWokka Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 Bike: '09 VFR800. Pre-covid was used daily getting to work, now only a couple of times a week to work. Has VFRness installed, and ignition switched aux fuse block for USB socket and heated grips. Dash cam is direct to battery, but that's fairly recent and this behaviour predates that install. Stator was replaced a few thousand kms ago. Charge system tested as good a few weeks ago. On occasion, probably every 1-2 months, I'll try and start the bike, I'll get about 1 engine rotation, all electrics die (clock and trips reset), then nothing. Releasing the starter and trying again once or twice often then gets me a reluctant engine turnover and start, or holding the starter down after the initial stop and waiting about a second can also result in the engine turning over and starting. Next ride it'll start fine. It's happened at home with the bike cold (usually in a rush to leave, so no time to start fault finding), also after leaving the bike for an hour, or after 8 hours at work, so doesn't appear related to engine hot/cold. Happened a few weeks ago, so I thought I'd try a new battery, which seemed to crank stronger/faster (but then it's new, and has slightly higher CCA than the old one). Happy me. Two days ago, trying to leave work, no joy. Couldn't get it to start at all. Tried a few things until the battery got low (I presume, I didn't have a multimeter with me). Almost 3 hour wait for recovery, got home almost 4 hours after finishing work (so much for my 30 minute ride). Quite keen now to find out what's stuffed and fix it. Day after my flatbed adventure I put the old battery back in (new one out on charge), bike starts up straight away. Visual inspection, everything looks fine, all wiring, fuses, starter relay etc. I checked the charging voltages a few weeks ago when it last happened, and that was fine (which is why I tried a new battery). Weirdly, after a while attempting a few things when it happened the other day (after maybe 10 minutes) the electrics went even funnier. Normally the displays blank when starting, which happened to start with, but then it ll sort of reversed. The displays stayed blank (Neutral and oil light on dim), but then when I pressed the starter switch they went through their start up routine and came alive (also neutral and oil light got brighter), release starter switch, displays blanked (lights back to dim). This was repeatable until the I think the battery voltage got too low to do anything useful, was at about 10.7 volts when I took it out and charged it. Not sure what this intermittent fault is. Possibly the R/R decides not to work for one ride, causing low battery next time I start, intermittent fault with the starter relay (I couldn't swear if it clicks or not every time), or even the starter itself sticks for some reason? In the 9 years I've had the bike I haven't touched any of those bits. I've ordered a USB socket with voltmeter to replace my current power socket so I can keep an eye on battery voltages, also just ordered one of those mini jump start battery packs to keep in the top box (gives a few more tries to try and get it going). Sorry, might be a bit of a long post, trying to cover all the info I can think of. All ideas gratefully accepted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer ShipFixer Posted October 15, 2022 Member Contributer Share Posted October 15, 2022 It's possible you have the issue I had - intermittent connectivity in the start circuit due to dirty contacts in the ignition key switch and kill switch. It was causing the bike to switch off occasionally. Both of them can be cleaned and reinstalled pretty easily. Can test for it by checking continuity at the starter relay plug. If it's variable resistance when both switches are "on" then that might be it. I forget which color wires are what but it's spelled out in the service manual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted October 15, 2022 Member Contributer Share Posted October 15, 2022 Good detailed report Wokka. Agree with ShipFixer. Remove and check the connections at the plug and socket for the Starter Relay. Check for any signs burnt connections especially for the solid Red wire, and heat stress evident of the red plastic connector (see attached photo). Check Main Fuse A 30amp mounted in the Starter Relay, look for heat stressed fuse legs and discoloration of the Fuse green plastic. Also have a close inspection of Main Fuse B 30amp located next to the Starter Relay it's wiring, fuse and fuseholder can suffer badly from overheating, burnt, high resistance connections. - At switch ON do you always hear the Fuel Pump Prime? - Do you ever have a situation where the Fi light remains On after fuel prime? - Do you ever press the Starter Switch and absolutely nothing happens? - When pressing the Starter Switch do the Headlights switch OFF as they should then ON when the switch is released? - Does your Neutral Light Always illuminate when in Neutral? - How old was the original battery and what brand of new battery did you purchase? Batteries can do strange things..... SO. Charge both batteries new and old. Then take them to an Autobahn store were they will load check them for free. Load checking is the only way of confirming its ability to deliver good starting amps. Also make sure your battery connections are clean AND tight. Measure your charging voltage at the battery at idle and 5000rpm both cold and hot engine you should see voltage around 13.5 to 14.5v. If you don't have the Service Manual you can download it from this forum. It might pay disconnecting all your electrical accessories getting the bike wiring all back to standard and re assess the situation. Good Luck. Where in Melbourne are you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WokkaWokka Posted October 15, 2022 Author Share Posted October 15, 2022 Thanks for the replies. I'll try and clean the contacts, won't do any harm even if they're not the issue. I had a good look today, all switches work as expected, continuity etc. is as I expect. Took the starter relay out, all good, no burns/melting and the relay functions perfectly when tested with a power supply (clicks strongly from 12v down to 9v, probably lower but I stopped there). All fuses are good, no evidence of melting, I had that several years ago at Main Fuse B, which is why I installed the VFRness and solved that issue wtith the extra charging path. -fuel pump always primes -Fi light has never stayed on -Start switch always does something, even if it's only blank the displays and switch the lights off -headlights go off when starter is pressed -neutral light behavious is as expected -not sure how old the last battery was, but after removing it from the bike a couple of weeks ago it's still at 12.8v. New battery is an SBS Powersport. The new battery was at 10.7v when I took it out, then charged it up to about 13v a couple of days ago, but when I tested it today it was down at 11v. Charged it again this afternoon, was 13v when it came off charge, over the next few hours that dropped, now (6 hours later) it's at 11v. That'll be going back to the shop (Bond Batteries in Hoppers Crossing). I tried the trouble shooting in the service manual (first thing I try and find when I get a new vehicle), all came out OK for stuff I can do with no battery. I'll put the old battery back in tomorrow and test the charging system again, but it was fine a couple of weeks ago just before I got the new battery. If the new battery lost charge over the day then that might explain why I couldn't start when leaving work, not sure why it would have changed after a couple of weeks, possibly a bad cell that was on the verge of failing when I bought it. I'll probably take both batteries for a load check tomorrow. Grum - I'm in the wild west of Taraneit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted October 15, 2022 Member Contributer Share Posted October 15, 2022 Thanks for answering all the questions, good job Wokka. You could definitely be looking at two bad batteries! - The new battery performance doesn't sound good at all. Charge and load check both of them. Be aware, even your Old battery measuring 12.8v does not mean it's fully healthy! Terminal voltage is not a true indicator of its Capacity CCA, its ability to deliver heaps cranking amps when needed. - Make sure None of your added accessories are draining power with Ignition to OFF. The Ignition OFF static battery drain current must Not exceed 2.5mA (refer Service Manual to test this or ask if not sure), - With a known Good Battery installed see how it goes, and recheck your charging volts as mentioned. Your fault description and all the checks you've done certainly sounds like you have two bad batteries! - There is also no harm in jumping a 12v car battery to the bike for starting/cranking testing, just be very careful with your jumper lead connections! For Info - I had a 2009 Sword Silver with gold rims, did 94,000 faultless kms before updating to my 2014 8gen. The 2009 was a fantastic bike, however the 8gen is even better! Good Luck and keep us posted with how you get on. Cheers from a little further north, Sunbury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer DannoXYZ Posted October 16, 2022 Member Contributer Share Posted October 16, 2022 You've collected some good data. What you want to measure is battery voltage when you are having trouble: - battery voltage with everything off - battery voltage with start-button pushed and starter spinning or trying to spin (battery under max-load) This can be done with on-board voltmeter: 1. battery voltage with everything OFF 2. battery voltage when start-button pushed and starter powered Amount of voltage drop tells lots about condition of battery and charging system. You'll notice trends between when things are working optimally compared to when it's not. My battery voltage is typically between 13,2-13,5v before I start and about 11,5 when starting. In above example, battery isn't fully charged due to 10-min of leaving headlight ON to aim it (engine off). If voltage drops below 10,5v, bike will have difficulty starting as ECU and coils won't have enough voltage to operate. You may want to look into something like this for analysing live-data: https://www.amazon.com.au/dp/B07G57ZK3F/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WokkaWokka Posted October 16, 2022 Author Share Posted October 16, 2022 Thanks for the helpful replies. Danno - Already ordered a USB and Voltmeter to replace the aux power socket I have mounted on the small flat area of the little inner fairing under the left handlebar. The cover for the USB has a little window so I can see the voltmeter all the time. (Thingy at this link) Hopefully this will help out if it happens again, previously I haven't had a multimeter around when it happened, plus I'm sure I'll be looking every time I start and ride, so should get some early indication of future battery or charging system issues Looks like it's just been down to battery troubles. I've checked out everything else, and the rest of the starting system looks good, and behaves as expected. (switches work, relay is fine, diode and fuses are good, connections/continuity good) The newer battery is definitely kaput, charged it again and it showed 13v but within 3 hours it drops to 11v and stays there, possibly a bad cell internally. Back to the shop for that one. I was right about the old battery being on the way out, must be getting fouled plates or something as I took both to Autobarn and had them load check them. Old battery holds 12.8v, but only generated 119 CCA, so no good. New battery (dropped to 11v again before I could get it tested) registered 10.5v and a whopping 49 CCA :) I'll get the faulty battery replaced next week and see what happens (I've also bought a small jump start pack to leave in the my top box so if it happens again I hopefully don't get stuck!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer DannoXYZ Posted October 17, 2022 Member Contributer Share Posted October 17, 2022 We've seeing lower QA on batteries in U.S. There's actually only handful of manufacturers and they make hundreds of private-labels for big-box stores. Used to be able to buy 100-month auto battery from Costco. Now it's only 36-month max for double price. Used to get 10-yrs out of Yuasa moto battery, no more! I've given up on all lead-acid batteries and make my own lithium packs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Tirso Posted October 17, 2022 Member Contributer Share Posted October 17, 2022 1 hour ago, DannoXYZ said: ...make my own lithium packs. wanna share how? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer bmart Posted October 17, 2022 Member Contributer Share Posted October 17, 2022 You're right on the batteries. They dont' last nearly as long. A number of years back AutoZone went to Johnson Controls to make them and they lasted a LOT longer. My Yuasa ones are some of my worst in later years. They used to last nearly forever. My current collection of Battery Tender Lithium ones and Motobatt AGMs have been the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WokkaWokka Posted October 17, 2022 Author Share Posted October 17, 2022 Price isn't any indication of quality either I find. Yuasa are expensive, and ones I've had in the past didn't last any longer than ones half the price. Local battery shop chain (Battery World for any Aussies playing along) wanted over AU$300 for a Yuasa, the SSB battery I just got was AU$145. Other brands of the same size/spec could be found online for even cheaper. Last battery was a Power Volt, no idea when or where I bought it, it must be at least 5 years old. Dude from the battery shop (Bond Batteries) came and picked the faulty battery up from my house yesterday, and is dropping a new one off this afternoon. Can't fault the service from them, when buying he was actively sourcing when from another branch and getting it transported down, and even suggested other retailers that might have them in stock if I was in a hurry, and I got a quick response and no fuss when dealing with the warranty replacement of the faulty one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer DannoXYZ Posted October 17, 2022 Member Contributer Share Posted October 17, 2022 On 10/16/2022 at 8:45 PM, Tirso said: wanna share how? There was thread couple years ago where someone was going to convert jump-pack from Costco into battery. I'll see if I can find it as there was lots of good discussion. General idea is you build pack from LiFePO4 cells. Larger 22650 ones would be better than small 18650 used in Teslas and laptops. Also make sure they are LiFePO4 rather than traditional lithium-cobalt that had bad rap for overheating and blowing up. LiFePO4 is inert chemistry that simply doesn't overheat or even burn. You can put LiFePO4 battery on top of campfire and when plastic case has been burned away, guts of battery will leak out and actually put out fire! Here's basic example: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer DannoXYZ Posted October 17, 2022 Member Contributer Share Posted October 17, 2022 Found the thread: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer DannoXYZ Posted October 17, 2022 Member Contributer Share Posted October 17, 2022 Here's interesting way to build lithium pack by re-using case of old lead-acid battery. Or you can get empty cases for DIY: https://www.ebay.com/itm/165684304541 I've been using these smallest Ballistic 4-cell batteries in my race Ninja 250 and track CBR600RR for past 7 and 10-yrs without any issues. Weighs less than half kg. These are older design (no longer available) that doesn't have BMS for over-charger or over-discharge protection. Not problem on track-bikes, but may not have capacity to deal with street-bike events like leaving headlights on accidentally. Would discharge battery below point of recovery and destroy it. Modern lithiums with BMS (or build yours with BMS) are much more tolerant of overcharing and discharging. I really Battery Tender line of batteries. Nice thing about LiFePO4 is they can take super-high charging rates, 10C!! Or about 10x higher than lead-acid batteries. I've topped off these batteries using auto-battery chargers at 5-8a without any issues! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WokkaWokka Posted October 31, 2022 Author Share Posted October 31, 2022 Just to finalise my issue, new battery (a good one this time) seems to to have solved it, turns over quickly, and starts strong on about the 2nd rotation. Haven't had any issue in a few weeks (though it was intermittent before, so who really knows). I also installed a combo USB and voltmeter (replaced my old power socket), I can now plug my phone straight in without needing a USB thing to plug into the power socket, and also can see the voltage of the battery & charging. The voltage display isn't on by default, you have to push the button (which you can do with the cover closed), and I have the connection running through a switched aux fuse panel, so no danger of it draining the battery. Display is good with the cover closed, not too bright, and located where it isn't distracting when illuminated. Battery sits at 12.3v-12.5v with the engine off, charges at 14.4v when running, and drops to 11.5v when starting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer DannoXYZ Posted October 31, 2022 Member Contributer Share Posted October 31, 2022 Hey, good job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted October 31, 2022 Member Contributer Share Posted October 31, 2022 Nice job Wokka. Thanks for the follow up. Your voltages all look good. Glad it was only a case of two shot batteries. Hope you managed to get a full refund on the dud battery you were previously sold. Enjoy your ride. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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