Tapered roller steering head bearings - help wanted

[Skipper]

I purchased an old '89 VFR 750F that someone "fitted" tapered roller bearings on the steering head shaft assembly on the triple clamps.

It was a very poor job (odd cup and cone from different brands in one instance) and the bearings were both showing "marks" on the rolling surface.

I have just installed new replacement bearings and now wonder what torque to do the adjusting nut up to, as I am aware that roller bearings will skid rather than roll if they do not have sufficient preload. Learning now that the factory bearings used were ball race type has left me with the questing "What preload should I use - or do I just add a fudge factor to that stated in the service manual for ball race bearings?"

In theory tapered rollers should be better and last longer - but only with the right amount of preload?

I did check service manuals for later models but they all seem to still just use ball race bearings, so no help there

Any qualified suggestions appreciated

[bmart]

Ive used tapered bearings in only one bike, my last CB-1, and they were superb. I'm likely going to put them in the current CB-1 also. It is getting clunky. 

[FJ12Ryder]

The tapered bearings will take less preload than the OEM ball bearings. I set mine so they moved freely, but had no excess play. And rechecked after some

riding was done. Too loose and you get "CLUNK" and damage in short order, too tight and the bike will wander.

[Tirso]

this may help:

 

[Mohawk]

Having used tapers for years. This is my advice. 1st ensure that the cones are seated home fully. Then ignore any torque setting numbers, they don't work with tapers. Best advice is tighten until you feel the steering start to drag. Then back off just enough such that the steering drag is gone & moves freely. Tighten the lock nut & job done. 
 

Works for Landrover hub bearings, so fine for bike head bearings loads. 

[V4 Rosso]

I use the same procedure as mohawk descibes. Never fails.

[VFR78]

I have just replaced my steering head bearings with tapered rollers and used the same torque settings as the manual states for ball bearings. It moves freely with no movement when pulling the fork legs. I did not use AllBalls, but got Japanese replacements. I would have thought that the greater surface contact area of rollers would have allowed rollers to tolerate the standard torque settings, without pitting, unlike balls.

[VFR78]

Seating the lower race is PITA.

[Tirso]

Here's a link from the VFRD's CEO, with pictures.

We're all saying the same thing, not too much pressure.

That's how I did mine and plan on doing with another '99 I just got.

 

[ShipFixer]

I vaguely remember this is how I was supposed to install my All Balls tapered rollers 10+ years ago.  Improvement in the front end was noticeable.  Increase in natural frequency going from "pseudo-pinned/pinned" to "pseudo-clamped/clamped" kills chatter and other bad oscillation behavior.

[JZH]

9 hours ago, VFR78 said:

I have just replaced my steering head bearings with tapered rollers and used the same torque settings as the manual states for ball bearings. It moves freely with no movement when pulling the fork legs. I did not use AllBalls, but got Japanese replacements. I would have thought that the greater surface contact area of rollers would have allowed rollers to tolerate the standard torque settings, without pitting, unlike balls.

 

You should check again.  This is contrary to nearly every other account I've ever heard.  Maybe the races weren't seated fully when you first applied the ball-bearing-spec torque?

 

Ciao,

 

JZH

[VFR78]

Checked after every ride. Steering is smooth with no binding at all, and there is no for and aft movement in the forks. Spent a great deal of time ensuring that the races were fully seated before final install, so I doubt that they have moved. I’ve done about 500km, since the work, and the bike is handling beautifully. 

It’s quite hard to find definitive torque data and a lot of information on the net seems to come from individual experience. I did find some details on tapered roller headsets for Goldwings that recommended using OEM torque for tapered rollers and notice that Allballs also recommend OEM torque settings for their headset tapered roller bearings.

 

I am going to have another look at them soon, just so I can sleep at night😳 

[FJ12Ryder]

Considering the fundamental difference between the OEM ball bearings, and the Timken-style roller bearings, there is no way the same torque

setting will work for both. What did they say to use for torque settings? Just curious.

[raYzerman]

I used OEM torque with no problem.  However, check side to side turning effort the old fashioned way, should be little to no drag.

[VFR78]

6 hours ago, FJ12Ryder said:

Considering the fundamental difference between the OEM ball bearings, and the Timken-style roller bearings, there is no way the same torque

setting will work for both. What did they say to use for torque settings? Just curious.

All balls say OEM spec, which is 25 N-m for the Viffer. The Goldwing site says 21 ft-lbs or 28 N-m. I’ve used 25 N-m.

 

 

[VFR78]

2 hours ago, raYzerman said:

I used OEM torque with no problem.  However, check side to side turning effort the old fashioned way, should be little to no drag.

I have no drag. We should remember that these are not wheel bearings, so the loads probably are not quite the same as for high speed spinning.

[Terry]

I overtightened the taper rollers that I fitted to my RF900 many years back. The first test-ride was really "interesting" as all the self-steering micro-movements were damped out; if I flicked the bike into a bend just right it was amazing, but if there were any corrections needed it was impossible to make a smooth bend. When I realised my error, it was an easy fix to back off the bearing tension until the drag was gone, and normal service was resumed. 

 

[Skipper]

A lot of ideas and thanks to all contributors to the discussion, the most prolific answers appear to relate to something "touchy -feely" which works for my long held understanding of preloading wheel bearings used on trailer stub axles and the like. Tighten till they are about to bind up then back of an sixth of a turn. (one flat on a castellated nut) Buggered if I know what that equates to in Nm? My Clymer manual says 23 -27NM but that relates to ball bearings. I tried Google and came up with an SKF web site advice which had a long and protracted formulae to calculate the correct preload, though I did not see anything about mixing different sized bearings - suspect one would use that for the smaller of the two? In any event their calculation was beyond my capability. As some writers state here, (correctly I believe) - roller bearings are higher load rated and different design so do require a different preload setting - but what is it?
 

Along the way reading comments about fitting the new bearings, both cup and cone without special tools, so thought I would add my contribution:

I have a lathe at my disposal so turned up a couple of washers to the OD of the top and bottom cup, then with a piece of 16mm threaded rod pulled them into the oiled" cups into the steering head accurately and squarely, nice and slow so there was no hang ups until both cups were bottomed out in the frame recess.
Then I cut to length (in the lathe) a piece off 30mm ID x 34mm OD PVC pipe 250mm long and proceeded to press the bottom cone onto the shaft step until it was clearly seated home, Once again having the benefit of a hand operated hydraulic press made easy work of this (photos of the "tools" I made for interest only)

 

Now best I go and "set" the preload with some speculative answer and get on with other things - thanks again to all contributors 🙂 

[Tirso]

I vaguely remember a similar discussion years ago and I found it

 

From SebSpeed:
"The reason a lot of people have differing opinions here, is because all are using non-oem spec replacement parts rendering the manual irrelevant for this procedure. The manual is catered to oem type replacement. If you torque tapered bearings to ball bearing spec in one of these aluminum frames, you CAN break the bearing lands. It has been documented here, and I have seen it in person after being asked to help fix the broken frame."

 

And JZH

"FWIW (and the steel vs alloy frame issue is something to keep in mind), the Honda Common Service Manual has different torque settings for ball and roller stem bearings."

Attached sections from Honda Common Service Manual

 

 

[VFR78]

 

5 hours ago, Tirso said:

I vaguely remember a similar discussion years ago and I found it

 

From SebSpeed:
"The reason a lot of people have differing opinions here, is because all are using non-oem spec replacement parts rendering the manual irrelevant for this procedure. The manual is catered to oem type replacement. If you torque tapered bearings to ball bearing spec in one of these aluminum frames, you CAN break the bearing lands. It has been documented here, and I have seen it in person after being asked to help fix the broken frame."

 

And JZH

"FWIW (and the steel vs alloy frame issue is something to keep in mind), the Honda Common Service Manual has different torque settings for ball and roller stem bearings."

Attached sections from Honda Common Service Manual

 

 

Magnificent Tirso, a great find. The Viffer will stay in the shed until I can get it back to 11 N-m. The frame issue is the real worry.