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Fuel System Advice


Dangeruss

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I have stripped my '98 5th gen down to the bare engine in the frame and am cleaning everything up under the tank, including getting the injectors serviced. I have had no issues with the fuel pump, but assume it is as old as the bike. The filter is NLA from Honda, unless you buy the entire pump assembly, which is way more than I'm willing to spend on something that still works. Maybe if I was planning a cross country trip, but otherwise no.

The bike has about 70,000km (~44,000 mi) on it. Does anyone have any advice on what to bother with while I have the tank off and empty, or better off leaving it alone? Is there a decent aftermarket filter available that would make it worth opening up, and do any of the rubber parts in there have a tendency to deteriorate and need replacing?

Quantum have a complete replacement kit for pump and filter, has anyone had any experience with them? Is it worth replacing a functional pump due to age alone? https://www.highflowfuel.com/quantum-oem-replacement-efi-fuel-pump-w-tank-seal-filter-for-honda-vfr800-1998-2009-replaces-16700-mcw-d02/

All advice appreciated. 

 

Edit; I just noticed the '99 parts list shows a superseded part # for the filter that is the same as the 6th gen, so I'll order one of those. Any suggestions on the fuel pump still appreciated. 

 

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PAIR delete? Much easier with stuff out of the way. Check rubber hoses for deterioration. Spark plug change. Thermostat - probably ok but if there were any unusual temperature indications, it might be worth it. If you were planning on fitting any elctrical accessories (voltmeter, usb hub etc), much easier to lay the wire with the tank out of the way.

 

Just a few thoughts, not sure if they are relevant to your situation.  :beer:

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Pair delete is part of this, as is new plugs and a coil on plug conversion (just for the fun of it, for the doubters). New ASR silicon hoses and hose clamps, also replacing every O-ring in the cooling system, some of them were pretty rugged. Thermostat too. The throttle body hoses look okay, and are NLA so barring visible deterioration I will likely reuse them. I hadn't considered wiring in a USB hub, which is a good idea to do now, thanks for that 👍.

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I've never used an aftermarket fuel pump assemblies with any success, but I've replaced many of the pumps in some bikes over the years with great success. Stay away from Chinese stuff. In the R6 track bike (high RPM its whole life), I've never had one of these go bad: MOSTPLUS 11382MS. 

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1 hour ago, Dangeruss said:

Pair delete is part of this, as is new plugs and a coil on plug conversion (just for the fun of it, for the doubters). New ASR silicon hoses and hose clamps, also replacing every O-ring in the cooling system, some of them were pretty rugged. Thermostat too. The throttle body hoses look okay, and are NLA so barring visible deterioration I will likely reuse them. I hadn't considered wiring in a USB hub, which is a good idea to do now, thanks for that 👍.

 

My 5th Gen mount & meter.

 

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Watch out on the fuel filter. They changed from having a U shaped rubber pipe with a straight fuel filter inlet (‘99) to a fuel filter which incorporated the U bend (not sure which year).  So if you get the later filter you’ll need the later inlet rubber pipe also. 
 

It may be possible to just buy some suitable sized submersible fuel hose and cut to length if you want to save a little. Worth considering getting some new hose spring clamps for this piece if you’re of the “do it right, fix once persuasion”, but not strictly necesssary IIRC.

 

You may well find that other rubber parts (there is a rubber piece and the fuel filter inlet holding a metal “scrunchie”) may have degraded. They sometimes come out in several pieces. And there’s the sock filter also. 
 

If you have the time, you may wish to wait to buy the parts until after you have the old pump out. In my case I ended up sourcing a Gen 6 complete used unit and then just changed the fuel filter for completeness. 

 

You need to factor in new pump to tank rubber seal and O ring for fuel sender opening if you disturb that as well as new fuel outlet pipe crush washer.

 

cheers
 

Stuart

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Quantum are an excellent source. We used to use them, almost exclusively, where I previously worked. 
 

I’d suggest pulling the 5 engine bolts and lifting the frame off the engine (a Harbor Freight furniture dolly is a pretty handy way to move the engine around). It’ll make it so much easier to get at everything for cleaning. I pulled out and recycled the LBS and removed, stripped, and went through my wiring harness, as well. Having the frame free of the engine made it all so much easier. BTW, I had a pretty nasty fuel tank and pump assembly. 

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35 minutes ago, Stray said:

Ducnut, that filter looks nasty! 

Miraculously, the bike ran without issue. 

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On 4/2/2022 at 3:42 AM, stuartb3502 said:

Watch out on the fuel filter. They changed from having a U shaped rubber pipe with a straight fuel filter inlet (‘99) to a fuel filter which incorporated the U bend (not sure which year).  So if you get the later filter you’ll need the later inlet rubber pipe also. 
 

It may be possible to just buy some suitable sized submersible fuel hose and cut to length if you want to save a little. Worth considering getting some new hose spring clamps for this piece if you’re of the “do it right, fix once persuasion”, but not strictly necesssary IIRC.

 

You may well find that other rubber parts (there is a rubber piece and the fuel filter inlet holding a metal “scrunchie”) may have degraded. They sometimes come out in several pieces. And there’s the sock filter also. 
 

If you have the time, you may wish to wait to buy the parts until after you have the old pump out. In my case I ended up sourcing a Gen 6 complete used unit and then just changed the fuel filter for completeness. 

 

You need to factor in new pump to tank rubber seal and O ring for fuel sender opening if you disturb that as well as new fuel outlet pipe crush washer.

 

cheers
 

Stuart

That's me, sometimes needs must and you just have to fix it, but I've got a box full of OEM seals, O-rings, gaskets, clips etc. all cataloged to put it back together, the only thing I didn't jump on was the fuel pump due to the cost and the fact that mine still works. The parts list has an updated number for the filter and connecting hose, which then stayed the same through 6th gen. The diagram obviously wasn't updated until the next model, but the filter came in as you describe. I also have the 'pot scrubber' and it's little rubber life raft. Thanks for the advice.

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18 hours ago, ducnut said:

Quantum are an excellent source. We used to use them, almost exclusively, where I previously worked. 
 

I’d suggest pulling the 5 engine bolts and lifting the frame off the engine (a Harbor Freight furniture dolly is a pretty handy way to move the engine around). It’ll make it so much easier to get at everything for cleaning. I pulled out and recycled the LBS and removed, stripped, and went through my wiring harness, as well. Having the frame free of the engine made it all so much easier. BTW, I had a pretty nasty fuel tank and pump assembly. 

 

 

Thanks for the pictures and encouragement, I considered dropping the engine as I have a 929 shock to drop in and also a 6th gen shock mount to allow the addition of adjustable rearsets, so I'm 98% on the way to it being out anyway. I think your pictures have convinced me. It looks like the engine sits pretty stable on its sump, I have the bike on a lift table so the engine would probably stay on there and I'll remove everything from it. 

I saw a post somewhere about the Quantum pumps not having a check valve like OEM, potentially allowing a leak to empty your tank. I didn't dig any deeper but appreciate your positive comment on them, I might order one to have on hand in case mine looks like yours when I pull it out, just waiting on a few back ordered bits to start.

LBS is already on the shelf in case I ever sell the bike to someone who wants to restore it, but I'll never use it again.👍

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1 hour ago, Dangeruss said:

 

Thanks for the pictures and encouragement, I considered dropping the engine as I have a 929 shock to drop in and also a 6th gen shock mount to allow the addition of adjustable rearsets, so I'm 98% on the way to it being out anyway. I think your pictures have convinced me. It looks like the engine sits pretty stable on its sump, I have the bike on a lift table so the engine would probably stay on there and I'll remove everything from it. 

I saw a post somewhere about the Quantum pumps not having a check valve like OEM, potentially allowing a leak to empty your tank. I didn't dig any deeper but appreciate your positive comment on them, I might order one to have on hand in case mine looks like yours when I pull it out, just waiting on a few back ordered bits to start.

LBS is already on the shelf in case I ever sell the bike to someone who wants to restore it, but I'll never use it again.👍


I did the exact thing as you on everything; carb cleaner and toothbrush. If you drop out the engine on the floor, it’ll allow you to roll it around for access to all of it. I always work over a rug, so no scratches on anything. 
 

I’m not sure how a fuel pump without a check valve empties a tank. 
 

Shimming the upper shock mount will help the bike turn-in more easily. I have a longer Penske plus a lot of shimming. The handling is effortless. 
 

 

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I think the fuel pump question was related to it not having a check valve vs OEM, which I didn't know OEM had and wouldn't have assumed either. Here's the post, maybe they changed them since then. https://www.zx-10r.net/threads/danger-read-quantum-fuel-pumps.355538/

I don't see this as an issue unless my fuel line ruptures while I'm not riding (pretty much impossible), and I wouldn't disconnect the line on a full tank, although I do see in his example of a race bike that you would.

I've got a new shock mount that I just have to weld up for the 929 shock which is a temporary thing until I either find a good deal on a decent used Penske or pop for a new DMR. I incorporated shimming into the design. I have a Penske on my RZ350 and it cost me under $500, including new spring and rebuild by Penske. Forks are getting VTR1000 lowers and CBR callipers, I did an R6 inverted front end on my RZ but didn't want to get that involved with the VFR, at least for now (that choice was made before I escalated to my current level of over involvement)

The rug is a nice touch, I newer throw away large sheets of heavy cardboard when we get something like a BBQ or stove, they come in real handy for this sort of thing, or rolling around under the car in winter.

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Sounds like a solid plan. 
 

Reading that ZX-10 post makes sense, now. I used to keep a lookout for things I might need for future spares and managed to score a near-new fuel pump assembly. However, I’ll keep the check valve issue in mind, before recommending them in the future. 
 

I used to be an avid cyclist and, as such, I know the value of a nice, compliant bicycle fork. They ride so much nicer than a stiff, racing fork. Using that analogy, I wanted to keep the standard 41mm fork tubes, because I could see how much fore/aft movement there was at the front axle. That movement is the absorption of road chatter. Conversely, a rigid, USD fork assembly isn’t going to have the same ability to absorb road chatter and will ride harsher. Further confirmation of my choice is there are an awful lot of guys way faster than me racing 41mm tubes, including the guy who’s done all my street suspensions the last 15yrs. The fork setup isn’t going to be what’s holding back the bike. I ended up using F3 lowers, BTW. 
 

I’m looking forward to seeing your progress. 

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15 hours ago, ducnut said:

I did the exact thing as you on everything; carb cleaner and toothbrush.

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"Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in."

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7 hours ago, stuartb3502 said:

"Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in."

 

To prove you are right I purchased the identical cart that Ducnut used yesterday at Princess Auto, the Canadian equivalent of Harbour Freight (probably made in the same factory in China with a different sticker). I also got a 'motorcycle jack' which is basically a miniature manual version of the hydraulic lift table my bike is already on. Should make the separation easier.

Anyone know how much a bare VFR engine weighs? I'm guessing maybe 150-200 lbs?

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Man that fuel filter makes me think someone lived on a dirt/dusty road.

Very nice job on cleaning the engine, looks like a new one .

Am I right on thinking you guys have found that carb cleaner and a small brush is the best way to clean years of road crap off an engine?

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2 minutes ago, Hingley said:

Man that fuel filter makes me think someone lived on a dirt/dusty road.

Very nice job on cleaning the engine, looks like a new one .

Am I right on thinking you guys have found that carb cleaner and a small brush is the best way to clean years of road crap off an engine?

 Very good question, I want it clean like new but do not want to change the finish. I am adamantly opposed to polishing anything that didn't come that way.

I have lightly tried some NAPA Aluminum Brightener that you dilute depending on severity, it's basically acid.

I think I am going to start with degreaser and then aluminum wheel cleaner, certainly open to suggestions.

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The VFR engine is alarmingly heavy. 
 

As for separation, I’d suggest just setting the engine down on the cart, removing the bolts, and lifting the frame straight off, as shown in the pic. 
 

Likewise, I didn’t want to alter the factory finish. Basically, I just wanted it to look new and clean, which is what my build theme was. I even used brake cleaner and toothbrush on the frame and swingarm. The amount of grunge in those textures was surprising. 

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11 hours ago, Dangeruss said:

I think I am going to start with degreaser and then aluminum wheel cleaner, certainly open to suggestions.

 

The Wheel Cleaner is surprisingly effective.  I've also used Mag Wheel Cleaner a little in bad areas...   it is etching, so care is recommended.

 

Hard to beat Gas and a Toothbrush for a start.  Then I finished with a little de-greaser (extreme simple green perhaps) and a bunch of wheel cleaner.   You'll find the brands vary in their effectiveness immensely.  The best used to be Wesley's Espree Wheel Magic.  Goddamm I loved that shit.  I always try what's on sale and the Armor All Extreme All Wheel Cleaner has been pretty damn good.

 

 

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12 hours ago, Hingley said:

Man that fuel filter makes me think someone lived on a dirt/dusty road.

Very nice job on cleaning the engine, looks like a new one .

Am I right on thinking you guys have found that carb cleaner and a small brush is the best way to clean years of road crap off an engine?

 

When I cleaned up the front sprocket area and rear swing arm, Kerosene and a brush was highly effective.

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12 hours ago, Hingley said:

Man that fuel filter makes me think someone lived on a dirt/dusty road.

Very nice job on cleaning the engine, looks like a new one .

Am I right on thinking you guys have found that carb cleaner and a small brush is the best way to clean years of road crap off an engine?

 

Not the cheapest but very effective with brass detail brushes.

I use it on everything that needs degreasing.

2 bottles for my VFR refurbish project.

Worth $26 dollars to get everything perfect.

I guess I should try something cheaper, but this stuff is that good.

 

 

 

 

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I was too chicken to remove the engine from the frame but I really did not need to.

 

 

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This is after I installed the swingarm. 

 

I now maintain with WD40.

 

Re: aftermarket fuel pumps, I tried Kemso and It failed, caused a short. I went back to the 23 year old stock fuel pump with a 6th gen filter. 

Good info on the Quantum, though of using one but read such great reviews on Kemso.

 

@Skids where did you find your meter mount?

 

 

@Dangerusslook forward to seeing your finished motorbike. 

 

 

 

 

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On 4/3/2022 at 11:12 AM, ducnut said:

 

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I have questions... 👀

 

🤣

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18 minutes ago, ShipFixer said:

I have questions... 👀

 

🤣


The original owner got into his 70’s and the bike had spent a LOT of time sitting between rides. Tennessee, USA, has huge temperature swings and a lot of humidity, so the perfect recipe to rust a tank of a sitting bike. 

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