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Help with coolant weep/leak please


stuartb3502

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Hi - did a bunch of work on my bike two years ago which included changing coolant (but not disturbing waterpump).  Bike then stored until recently when I got it out to get back on the road.  Getting a small coolant leak which appears at the water pump.  I've read what I can about the weep hole and that if a seal is gone, it's new waterpump time.   Pics show underside of the waterpump and the tiny pool of coolant after I topped up from low to high level on expansion bottle and left the bike for a few days.

 

Few things I'm not clear on.  Where exactly is the "weep hole" on the pump.  I can see two slots in the underside where the cover meets the body, but not sure it's one of those.  I did putting a bit of shop towel into those and they're dry.  Also don't see how the drip on the pump body could have gotten there from one of those.

 

I have tried to see if the coolant is coming from elsewhere and just ending up at the pump.  I have not delved under tank/throttle bodies at this stage, just looking at bike withg side fairings off.

 

Can't see why a leak should develop out of nowhere.  Bike had no issues before and has 23k miles.  That said, the unions with the hoses have looked as crummy as you can see for a long time so it's possible that there had been a slight leak and I'm only just now realising it because I'm looking more closely at the bike (previously it was serviced by shops but they didn't mention any leaks).

 

Any tips?  Is it worth trying a drain and changing the waterpump cover O ring before anything else?

 

Thanks

StuartIMG_20220222_162900.thumb.jpg.06143ab301479653199d2d7a5441ec1c.jpg

IMG_20220222_162959.jpg

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I haven't personally had a waterpump leak on any of my VFRs, but both of the 5th gens and one of the 6th gens I've owned have had leaks in the center of the Vee after the bikes were around 15 years old. They all leaked from old o-rings where the water outlets bolt to the block under the throttle bodies. The aluminum gets some corrosion around the o-rings, and the o-rings get brittle.

I would make sure the coolant isn't leaking and pooling in the V of the engine and dripping down the side when it's on the sidestand.

 

If you are leaking in the vee, I'd tear everything apart and clean all the corrosion up, and replace all the o-rings, as well as the thermostat, and all the rubber hoses in there. Although some of the hoses aren't cheap, it's good to know you won't have to tear it apart twice.

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I was afraid you might say that 🙂

 

Bike has been on centrestand and not moved since I cleaned off drips and topped up expansion bottle.  Does that make any difference to likelihood of it being in the V?

 

Want to check I'm understanding what I'd need to do.  Assuming this means fuel tank removal, throttle body removal and then replace parts as you describe.  Any tips on diagnosing further before I embark on this major course?  Sounds like it may be worth leaving on sidestand and then really checking to see if I can find a trail of coolant coming from further up.

 

Stuart

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Your weephole should be right where that arrow is, and should be maybe 1/8" diameter. I believe it is in the shadow in your picture.  They can get gummed up with debris, so make sure to clean it out with a paperclip or something to see if that is where the leak is coming from. If it is, your water pump seal is bad and coolant can mix with the oil.

image.png.7f82b3cd7c50651801c106c1a00a05d0.png

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Paul beat me to it. The slots in the housing are just there as prying points if you need to split the water pump. The end of one of of the hoses does look like there has been seepage through there. I'd start by dismounting those hoses, carefully cleaning crusty stuff off the spigot and hose inside and then refitting the hose and clamps. You might get lucky. 

 

I just replaced my thermostat and the o-rings in the housing and the elbows that bolt to the heads, the latter were hard and flat and not to be trusted after all these years. By unbolting the elbows I was able to leave as many hoses attached as possible; each time you disturb an old hoses increases the likelihood of a leak later. 

vfr inspection.png

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If you do need a mechanical seal replaced and don't want to shell out for a whole pump, you could contact Happybikes.co.uk and see if they have a seal kit. I purchased a kit for my ST1100 from them a year or two back. The VFR water pump is pretty easy to remove from the engine, once unbolted it just pulls away.

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Thanks all - I've dried off around the pump and the inspection/weep hole and will check it again tomorrow. Then proceed to a drain and remount those hoses.

 

Looks like fifth gen water pumps are not available anywhere at the moment and I can't see the point of buying a used one as no way to verify condition until too late.

 

Sounds like 6th gen and later are compatible and they are available, but thanks for the tip on happybikes, I'll ask them if they have anything if it comes to that.

 

Stuart

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1 hour ago, stuartb3502 said:

Thanks all - I've dried off around the pump and the inspection/weep hole and will check it again tomorrow. Then proceed to a drain and remount those hoses.

 

Looks like fifth gen water pumps are not available anywhere at the moment and I can't see the point of buying a used one as no way to verify condition until too late.

 

Sounds like 6th gen and later are compatible and they are available, but thanks for the tip on happybikes, I'll ask them if they have anything if it comes to that.

 

Stuart

I can confirm that the 5 and 6 Gen water pumps are interchangeable. I had swapped my 5 Gen pump onto my 6 Gen when that pump went belly up. My 6 Gen is my commuter and my 5 Gen is my "play" bike, so I just swapped them. As said, easily comes off once the main bolts are removed. That being said, you may have oil leak out at the opening, especially if on the side stand, so center stand or try to lean to the right if possible. My experience has been that when the pump goes, it goes, I have seen the main "clam shell" o-ring be the only issue but recall once or maybe twice that this was actually the case.

 

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1 hour ago, Duc2V4 said:

I can confirm that the 5 and 6 Gen water pumps are interchangeable. I had swapped my 5 Gen pump onto my 6 Gen when that pump went belly up.

 

Good info to know :fing02:

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12 hours ago, Terry said:

If you do need a mechanical seal replaced and don't want to shell out for a whole pump, you could contact Happybikes.co.uk and see if they have a seal kit. I purchased a kit for my ST1100 from them a year or two back. The VFR water pump is pretty easy to remove from the engine, once unbolted it just pulls away.

Thanks again for this tip. He does have a seal kit which seems to cover most VFRs. Not contacted to confirm yet, but for anyone reading later, here’s a link to a video they share showing replacement. Kit is about 1/10th pump cost so seems worth a go. Video is for a Deauville, but I also saw a video from another Honda Shadow posted this month on YouTube where the pump also looks similar. Looks as though many of the Honda pumps and approach to changing the seals is similar.

 

 

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10 hours ago, Duc2V4 said:

I can confirm that the 5 and 6 Gen water pumps are interchangeable. I had swapped my 5 Gen pump onto my 6 Gen when that pump went belly up. My 6 Gen is my commuter and my 5 Gen is my "play" bike, so I just swapped them. As said, easily comes off once the main bolts are removed. That being said, you may have oil leak out at the opening, especially if on the side stand, so center stand or try to lean to the right if possible. My experience has been that when the pump goes, it goes, I have seen the main "clam shell" o-ring be the only issue but recall once or maybe twice that this was actually the case.

 

Thanks for confirming 5/6 compatibility and tip about changing without draining oil on centre stand or leaning right (sounds like some thinking on a contraption is needed!
 

Would you mind spoon feeding a bit more on last bit “My experience has been that when the pump goes, it goes, I have seen the main "clam shell" o-ring be the only issue but recall once or maybe twice that this was actually the case.”?

 

Sounds useful, but this is all new to me and I’m not sure I get it. What does pump going look like? Bigger coolant than I have so far? And is the “clam shell” seal the large diameter not quite circular o-ring which IS available as a Honda part?


cheers

 

 

 

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41 minutes ago, stuartb3502 said:

Thanks again for this tip. He does have a seal kit which seems to cover most VFRs. Not contacted to confirm yet, but for anyone reading later, here’s a link to a video they share showing replacement. Kit is about 1/10th pump cost so seems worth a go. Video is for a Deauville, but I also saw a video from another Honda Shadow posted this month on YouTube where the pump also looks similar. Looks as though many of the Honda pumps and approach to changing the seals is similar.

 

 

That looks similar to the procedure that I went through on the ST1100 but there seemed to be a bit more force needed on my parts; the water pump pulley is part of the cam drive belt and faces more loads I guess on that bike. The only failed component is likely to be the mechanical seal. Maybe its worth getting a 2nd hand pump and rebuilding that with the kit?

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Good idea on rebuilding a spare. It may give me more options (e.g. getting the bike to shop on its own wheels if I fail on the spare).
 

I’m trying to improve my understanding of water pumps (or rather get from zero to something). I think (but not sure) I now understand that there are two main seals on the pump shaft.


One seals coolant and the other seals oil with a “no mans land” in between. The weep hole/inspection hole is in no mans land and so should be dry when all Is well. If coolant is weeping from here it points to the coolant seal failing. If oil, then the oil seal. If mayonnaise, then both have gone 🙂
 

That’s the scenario covered by the video above (happybikes make clear that they don’t supply the oil seal). It sounds like it’s much the more common issue. 


BTW, thanks again everyone, after working in/with the internet since pre-Web days, I still find it amazing and humbling to be places like this forum where folks from literally all around the world share such valuable knowledge. I’d read a number of threads in many places before posting and you’re definitely adding to the readily available knowledge.

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I’ve seen two water pump failures on Eighth Generation Viffers. Mine and another. According to my friendly Honda mechanic its rare, but does happen. Repair of the pump mechanical seal was not an option, according to the shop manual, so I bought a new one. Replacement was simple. On the centre stand, on  a slightly sloping base, meant no oil loss. It’s important to use the correct coolant, because some have scouring additives that damage the mechanical seal. I suspect that my pump failure might have been the result the use of the wrong coolant, by the shop, but don’t really know. I now look after everything but the valves. Bike now has over 70,000kms on it a running beautifully. Overdue for forks and steering head overhaul, though.

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8 hours ago, DannoXYZ said:

There's guy in Arizona that rebuilds water-pumps for many Hondas.

 

Link to him, below.  Not cheap, but if you can't get it from Honda  . . .

 

 

Looking through the thread, I did not see (and please correct me if I missed it . . . :smile:) any mention made of the coolant used at the change prior to the leak appearing.  I have had hoses leak and produce that type of drip there, but early on in my association with Honda M/C's I made the mistake of using a silicate coolant.  The WP seal was ruined in short order.  So be sure if replacing the pump to use non-silicate coolant only (apologies if I'm stating the obvious . . . ).  Anyway, good to know that 6G pumps will work on our 5G engines - that should keep us supplied for a good long time. 

 

https://azv65.com/products/honda-p-n-19200-mbg-000-98-01-vfr800f-interceptor-water-pump-overhauled-0404d?_pos=6&_sid=9e8875fe8&_ss=r

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17 hours ago, stuartb3502 said:

Thanks for confirming 5/6 compatibility and tip about changing without draining oil on centre stand or leaning right (sounds like some thinking on a contraption is needed!
 

Would you mind spoon feeding a bit more on last bit “My experience has been that when the pump goes, it goes, I have seen the main "clam shell" o-ring be the only issue but recall once or maybe twice that this was actually the case.”?

 

Sounds useful, but this is all new to me and I’m not sure I get it. What does pump going look like? Bigger coolant than I have so far? And is the “clam shell” seal the large diameter not quite circular o-ring which IS available as a Honda part?


cheers

 

 

 

Yeah, "clam shell" is basically the main cover of the WP. Although I think it's rare that the main o-ring fail, but as mentioned, it did for me. When I took the cover off, the o-ring looked old and kind like it shrunk in places. Probably should have taken a pic it.

 

As for the pump itself, when it goes, as they say, it literally leaks or in my case, flows out of the weep hole! When the 6 Gen went out on me, it was literally gushing water out as I rode! I was able to pull over and limp to a place where, luckily, my friend could pick me up on his way home from the track.

 

This is the "clam shell" o-ring gasket that I speak of. Unfortunately I don't recall which WP is for what Gen but the one on the left you can see the silicon I used to help slow the leaking...

 

IMG_3986.thumb.JPG.55f05f9464dda45326a5ec07f840cf9c.JPG

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On 2/23/2022 at 11:58 PM, Cogswell said:

Looking through the thread, I did not see (and please correct me if I missed it . . . :smile:) any mention made of the coolant used at the change prior to the leak appearing. 


Short answer is last change was Honda type 2. I’d read about correct coolant before the change. Before that, not sure, but probably never been changed. Longer answer…

 

——
 

I’ve had the bike since 2007. I had it regularly serviced by two shops and me, but having looked at the history, can see no coolant change (just regular oil, air filter, clutch and brake fluids, chain, head bearings and a valve clearance check). 

 

I rode it regularly to 2014.  Apart from the corrosion/leak(?) you can see at the hose ends in the picture, I don’t “think” I’ve had a leak. I’ve not had to top up previously and have always checked bike over regularly.
 

I stopped using the bike regularly in 2014 and then later it sat for 2 years (unplanned). Then commenced getting it back on the road in 2019. Another long story short… I ended up cleaning out tank, replacing fuel pump assembly and sender, exhaust refurb. Then serviced,…oil, fluids. Did coolant change.
 

Bike then sat again apart from a couple of short runs until late last year due to…stuff and the world 🙂.  Started work on final few bits and noticed coolant level had dropped to lower limit (I thought this might possibly have been settling after the fill). Then noticed the drips when I was doing other minor bits and had the bike in my garage.

There was no more coolant at weep hole (probed with a bit of shop towel) or elsewhere yesterday, but I wasn’t able to pull it out of garage and  run engine. Drips I pictured had appeared without bike being run after I topped up coolant (it wasn’t a spill however).  Will run bike and recheck later today or tomorrow work permitting.


Thanks again everyone for the further tips. Sounds like waterpump swap on centre stand is not much of a trauma. 

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Ran a little yesterday. Single tiny drop directly below weep hole today, so looks like seal is just beginning to fail.  Managed to find a lower miles (supposedly fully working) 6th gen pump for a bargain price (less than a seal kit) which is here today.  So will likely throw that on and then I have a spare to try a seal replacement on.

 

Will try to post some pics and certainly a report of whether or not I manage it in case of interest.  Might be a little while however.  

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I replaced the pump in mine the summer of 2020. At the time I didn’t look very close and just replaced the gasket only to quickly find that the coolant was coming from the weep hole. It’s nice to know there’s an option for the pump from a 6th Gen will work. Biting the bullet paying full price is tough but at least you know what you have. I bought mine from my local Honda dealer, it took a bit of time because of back order delays. 

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On 2/23/2022 at 6:58 PM, Cogswell said:

 

Link to him, below.  Not cheap, but if you can't get it from Honda  . . .

 

 

Looking through the thread, I did not see (and please correct me if I missed it . . . :smile:) any mention made of the coolant used at the change prior to the leak appearing.  I have had hoses leak and produce that type of drip there, but early on in my association with Honda M/C's I made the mistake of using a silicate coolant.  The WP seal was ruined in short order.  So be sure if replacing the pump to use non-silicate coolant only (apologies if I'm stating the obvious . . . ).  Anyway, good to know that 6G pumps will work on our 5G engines - that should keep us supplied for a good long time. 

 

https://azv65.com/products/honda-p-n-19200-mbg-000-98-01-vfr800f-interceptor-water-pump-overhauled-0404d?_pos=6&_sid=9e8875fe8&_ss=r

But new from Honda 6th gen.....$141.00?

https://www.ronayers.com/oemparts/a/hon/5053f5b1f870021c54be7bbc/water-pump

 

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Bizarrely no more drips at all even after short ride. Went a bit further today to get bike inspected so I can put back on the road so will monitor again.

 

in the meantime, came across this guy in Arizona who does in depth restorations of a number of Honda pumps including VFR. More pricey than new from Honda, but he claims to eliminate issues so that they are better than stock. Worth a look…

 

https://azv65.com/search?type=product&q=Vfr800

 

A point to note…he says that he found that heating the impellers to remove them led to distortion which made it impossible to get them to stay in place afterwards when refitted. He created his own tool to pull them instead. It sounds unlikely that the 39 seconds of heat from a heat gun rather than a torch could do this, but he is clearly no idiot, so just passing this on.


Was incredible today to be back on the VFR for the first ride proper in over 6 years despite it being a far from ideal riding day. Getting it back on the road turned out to be a huge and unexpected amount of work, but bike got a big thumbs up at the shop and all the effort for me has been totally worth it. Keep enjoying ‘em while you can.

 

cheers

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Had no more leaks from inspection hole, but coolant in bottle did drop from high to low mark after a ride...bizarre. Decided by to put the replacement water pump on since I need to know if it’s OK anyway in case it needed to be returned.

 

I checked the Haynes manual procedure. That didn’t mention any need for draining oil. I did put the bike on a slight lean to the right anyway as suggested by others.

IMG_20220316_151628.thumb.jpg.c676f98b443633b0a52474a68f89e760.jpgIMG_20220316_151659.thumb.jpg.c12f67fce5019e5b1fe39df6738a06e6.jpg

 

I thought I might have to lean it more and was nervous about the risk of it tipping - that's why there's a workbench loaded up with heavy boxes on the right and some padding.  The bike's not actually touching.  It was "just in case", but as it turns out, not necessary as even with a slight lean (and maybe with none at all) there was no loss of oil. 

 

I initially hoped I could get away with using some clamps on the hoses rather than draining coolant, but turned out I didn’t have enough clamps of the right size. I emptied the coolant bottle (but perhaps that wasn’t necessary).

IMG_20220316_152425.thumb.jpg.aecb5730b470099ca4ee37bf9744a00d.jpg

 

I drained the coolant from the pump drain only (i e. not the engine block drain) into a clean container. It’s very recently changed so I wanted to hang on to it on case I didn’t have quite enough to refill.

IMG_20220316_154012.thumb.jpg.fe804b82ba03d04d17dabe7cc9c164ec.jpg

 

I then loosened the hose clips which seemed quite loose, but I don’t have any reference. Worth taking photos of hoses or making a mental note at least. It could be possible to get the radiator and block hoses the wrong way round. There are a couple of breather/overflow hoses which need to be temporarily pulled out of the way.

 

The hose from the radiator on mine was stuck where there had been some weeping in the past. I ended up just gently prying the hose up using a nylon trim removal tool. It needed very little force and as soon as one side was loosened it was possible to pull the hose off quite easily.

IMG_20220316_154756.thumb.jpg.228c7c79ee2865ea9dd3fca3a7ecea4d.jpg

The hose from the engine block was clean and came off easily.  The small top hose (bypass?) was difficult  (hard to grip due to lack of space). So I decided to leave that l until I’d removed the pump. Then it was not too bad. Watch out for the sidestand switch wiring when undoing and removing the pump to avoid damage.

 

The replacement pump was nice and clean fortunately which the one coming off was not on a couple of the connections.  You can see the two mounting holes in this picture as well.  For Brits, the Haynes manual is incorrect as it refers to removing 4 bolts.  The other two bolts (plus the drain bolt of course) here are holding the cover on the pump so do not need to be disturbed if swapping.  

IMG_20220316_160752.thumb.jpg.a48854e78a8818fdcde20e0f2a0ad2e8.jpg

 

I fitted a new O ring (pretty unusual size (32.95 x 2.62) so you’ll probably need to buy Honda part (91302MB0013 - about £5 in the UK). Bit of engine v oil on the O ring and then it slots on very easily.  This is actually the O ring on the old pump.

IMG_20220316_160944.thumb.jpg.282d44f87fe00b61f19214a569a46211.jpg

 

The trickiest part now was just to get the slot on the end of the water pump shaft aligned with the drive buried in the block. Trial and error and slight adjustments. Took me about three gos. Basically don’t attach hoses until you’ve done this.

 

I had a slight problem at this stage.  There are two mounting bolts for the water pump.  The lower one torqued to 13Nm easily, but the upper one seemed to be turning too much without reaching torque.  I backed it out and could not see any issues.  Decided not to try to get it to the prescribed torque so it's just "tight" for now and I'll need to keep an eye on it.  I have a spare bolt, but of course did not want to risk damage to the thread on the casing - not sure what's going on here.

 

Hoses go on easily enough. I haven’t found any guidance on exactly how much to tighten the clips. Haynes just says “securely”. Another source i found said not to overtighten. So I’ve erred that way and will keep checking them to see if they needed tweaking.

 

Normal coolant refill.  Only run briefly so far to burp some air, but so far so good.  Will run and keep an eye out for any weeps at the hose ends and any issues with that bolt before refitting fairing panels (which have now been off since 2019 so it will be quite an occasion!) 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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