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Hello! User'd up for an advice request.


twistednoble

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Howdy, longtime lurker stopping by for an advice request.

 

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I've got a '03 with a little over 32k miles. I've taken good care of her, steady diet of full synth and a filter every 3k, new air filter every 10k, just install some new IR plugs, and some spendy Road5's to replace the squared off PP's. Delkevic slip on, PAIR delete, I pulled the EVAP system after a wrestling match with an oil filter required more space.  Average 35MPG all day.

I got her at 25k miles from a gentleman that had taken meticulous care of her and it's definitely been a highest highs lowest lows kind of thing with her. A good segment of trouble free miles then suddenly a problem that relegates her to the garage for a couple of weeks while I source parts.

 

The first time was a stator cooking itself and the R/R going at the same time (probably a chicken or the egg type deal).

Then it was the front brakes locking up and needing to be pulled and cleaned in the middle of traffic (destroyed the stock rotor getting the caliper off).

Now she's developed incontinence.

 

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It's coming from the V of the block so I figure its the thermostat housing or a hose in that area. I've got it down to the throttle bodies and I'm taking a break while I type this. I don't have any parts ordered yet, gotta find the source before I pull out the wallet. I'm going to also rewind the front CCT while I'm in there and have the room to cut down on the noise some.

 

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Now for the advice segment. What should I do while I have all this access?

Is the vacuum system needed for anything or can I cap it at the bodies to clean up some of the hoses running everywhere?

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Nice looking bike you have.

 

The vacuum system most certainly is needed! Make sure the vac hoses to the MAP sensor are good, no signs of cracking, as well as the hose to the FPR (Fuel Pressure Regulator) the only vacuum hose you could block off is for the Variable Air Intake system if you are intending to disable this system.

Don't recommend "rewinding" the CCT, replace it with a new one.

Replace the thermostat housing O'Ring seal and all other hosing within the Vee. Might be worth fitting a new thermostat on spec while you're in there given the bike age. Other hoses outside of the Vee can be replaced whenever! 

Make sure the four rubber throttle body couplings are good and properly tightened when refitting, you don't want vacuum leaks created here.

Shout it some new coolant, Honda Type 2 premixed coolant is the stuff I use, its both Silicate and Borate free.

 

Good luck.

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6 minutes ago, Grum said:

Nice looking bike you have.

 

The vacuum system most certainly is needed! Make sure the vac hoses to the MAP sensor are good, no signs of cracking, as well as the hose to the FPR (Fuel Pressure Regulator) the only vacuum hose you could block off is for the Variable Air Intake system if you are intending to disable this system.

Don't recommend "rewinding" the CCT, replace it with a new one.

Replace the thermostat housing O'Ring seal and all other hosing within the Vee. Might be worth fitting a new thermostat on spec while you're in there given the bike age. Other hoses outside of the Vee can be replaced whenever! 

Make sure the four rubber throttle body couplings are good and properly tightened when refitting, you don't want vacuum leaks created here.

Shout it some new coolant, Honda Type 2 premixed coolant is the stuff I use, its both Silicate and Borate free.

Good luck.

 

Thanks!

 

I'll probably go replacing all of the vacuum hoses while I'm in here if I can't eliminate them, they're pretty crusty from age.

I was planning on reusing the coolant. I just put in fresh Honda blue this spring since I didn't know it's age and I'm not excited to go pay the $20-30 a bottle again. I've got half a bottle left on the shelf for top off if needed. The stuff that came out went into a clean bucket with a lid so it'll be ready for reuse.

You're absolutely correct on getting a new thermostat.

 

What's your reasoning for getting a new CCT over winding two or three more spins on the old one?

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2 hours ago, twistednoble said:

What's your reasoning for getting a new CCT over winding two or three more spins on the old one?

 

By winding more spring tension into the plunger spring you are placing an unknown tension on the cam chain, and the front tensioner is a PITA to replace if your adjustment isn't correct. The reason your cam chain has become chattery is most likely caused by the spring weakening over time. I'm not convinced retensioning the spring is a good long term fix, but as always, YMMV. 

The idea of also drilling out the metal gasket oil hole to provide extra oil seems a waste of time. These CCT's are not of the oil pressure piston plunging type and only need the slightest amount of oil to keep the internals of the cct lubricated, any excess flow of oil just gets dumped back into the crankcase. The CCT's I've removed with the normal gasket small oil hole were more than adequately bathed in oil.

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Since you are in there, and the front CCT's seem to last 20-50k km, why not throw in a new one and have no concerns for a few years or more?

 

I listened to mine chatter over a couple of summers and finally took the plunge... aside from the bolt head which sheared off - which told me the PO had already changed it once, and he was a goof in general with the work he did on the bike - it was a straightforward process.  I didn't remove the TB's or much of anything, had to disconnect a coolant hose and tie it back but all in all it was simple.

 

I did drill out the oil port in the gasket in hopes it will help the new CCT last even longer... I don't think there are solid results to say either way here, but as noted there is little risk of harm from doing it and perhaps it will help in the long run.

 

Winding the spring is iffy, and at best buys you some time... if you swap for new then at least you know what you are dealing with.  Mine is an '02 and my rear CCT is still silent so I will continue to hold off on that until necessary...

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The results of the "meticulous care" of the prior owner would have me looking at all systems before I rode it again. I can't imagine a scenario where front brake would lock up unless the rider wanted it to happen...

 

I've bought a lot of bikes that looked perfect but when I went through the systems, they weren't as well maintained. 

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Agreed about winding CCT springs more - the metal is already fatigued with age and stress, stretching it even more could end badly. If the spring fails, the damage could possibly be fatal. Replacement is cheap insurance. 

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24 minutes ago, twistednoble said:

Alrighty gents, I'll get a new one in the name of not coming back in here to do it again. Haven't made it any farther yet on getting the bodies off. It's been a busy day.

Remember to fully retract the plunger of both the old (before removing) and new one (before installing) using the small metal tool supplied with the new one. AND make sure you remove the old one squarely to it's mounting position, you don't want the steel plunger cap getting caught and dropping off into the engine! 

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As Grum pointed out, the hoses under the TB are a pain to get to, so while the TB is off, do 'em all.  In addition to the hoses going to the Tstat, there are two, 1 in and 1 out of the wax unit as well as 2 hoses that come off the necks on the cylinder heads.  Those hoses are good to change as well as the o-rings on the water necks - the o-rings can get totally fossilized.  The parts diagram will show you everything better than it can be explained.  And don't forget to get a new O-ring for the thermostat housing while you're at it.

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One brand new loooooong screwdriver and a piece of wood later they're exposed. 

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The suspicious slurry I believe is from fuel spill, hopefully should evaporate.

 

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No obvious suspect for who was leaking. There is still some liquid way down in the V, but I have to start pulling hoses to get all the way down there. Honda has done me the wonderful solid of facing all of the hose clamps downwards so getting them all out will be interesting. I'll probably unscrew the ports into the block and hopefully it should get me access to some of the thermostat hoses. I think the thermostat is floating supported by hoses. Kind of a strange setup, but whatever.

 

What is the metal thingamajig wayyy down in the V of engine (left side if you were sitting on the bike)?

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3 hours ago, twistednoble said:

 

What is the metal thingamajig wayyy down in the V of engine

"Metal thingamajig" ! Great description!

You might be referring to the VTEC Spool Valve.

Trust you have the Service Manual?

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3 hours ago, twistednoble said:

One brand new loooooong screwdriver and a piece of wood later they're exposed. 

20211208_181818.thumb.jpg.d3d6f48916095ee3a3bf60c1f0fdcb4c.jpg

 

The suspicious slurry I believe is from fuel spill, hopefully should evaporate.

 

20211208_181829.thumb.jpg.94560a73000231ff24754eb3dc538cf5.jpg
 

No obvious suspect for who was leaking. There is still some liquid way down in the V, but I have to start pulling hoses to get all the way down there. Honda has done me the wonderful solid of facing all of the hose clamps downwards so getting them all out will be interesting. I'll probably unscrew the ports into the block and hopefully it should get me access to some of the thermostat hoses. I think the thermostat is floating supported by hoses. Kind of a strange setup, but whatever.

 

What is the metal thingamajig wayyy down in the V of engine (left side if you were sitting on the bike)?

That's the VTEC solenoid.  It has  a single wire running to it.  When commanded open by the ECU, it lets pressurized oil flow through a spiderweb of passages in the heads  to the 8 VTEC valve followers which are latched closed by the high pressure oil. Once closed they can then actuate the 2nd set of 8 valves for 4 valve / cyl operation. Once rpm drops below the set point the valve closes,  pressure is removed and it's back to 2 valves per cylinder.

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By the way,  the two necks coming out of the heads are where the fossilized o-rings reside.  I would definitely replace those while you have it apart.  Easy job,  cheap insurance. 

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6 hours ago, Grum said:

"Metal thingamajig" ! Great description!

You might be referring to the VTEC Spool Valve.

Trust you have the Service Manual?

 

Sounds about right. I do have a manual. I just cannot find a reference to it in the lubrication or cooling circuits so it sparked my interest. There are only two metal thingamajigs down in the V and one is the thermostat which I've already mentioned. Process of elimination should make it easy for someone who knows to clarify what the other is.

 

6 hours ago, Cogswell said:

That's the VTEC solenoid.  It has  a single wire running to it.  When commanded open by the ECU, it lets pressurized oil flow through a spiderweb of passages in the heads  to the 8 VTEC valve followers which are latched closed by the high pressure oil. Once closed they can then actuate the 2nd set of 8 valves for 4 valve / cyl operation. Once rpm drops below the set point the valve closes,  pressure is removed and it's back to 2 valves per cylinder.

 

So that's where that is. Makes sense now that I think about it, you'd want it to be somewhere where it's equidistant from either head to keep one side of the engine from opening up significantly sooner than the other. That narrows down the places where they could put it pretty significantly.

 

Snarky answers aside, thank you for your help gentlemen. I'm no stranger to being arm deep in an engine, but the VFR is more densely packed than the bikes I'm usually working on.

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  • 1 month later...

After a long wait for the hoses to come in from Japan we are back together and rolling again. I forgot to take a picture of the glossy new hoses before I put the bodies back on. I capped all of the EVAP hoses at the throttle bodies like I said I would so I could get rid of one of the four way junctions. Apologies for the crap picture, I didn't even look at it after I took it.

 

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But over the course of the afternoon I got it rolled back out and put back together. A couple of key cycles to prime the pump and then a overly long warmup to bleed the coolant system since it was only 30 degrees outside. The stinkin thermostat would open and the water temp would drop ten degrees in a couple seconds. Other than that it went well and I do not have any new leaks after a ride to fill the tank back up.

 

 

Once it warms up this weekend I'll get the plastics back on and take her for a longer ride to check for any new issues. Yes I did top off the overflow tank after I got the coolant system burped. Cheers, and thanks for everyone's help.

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