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1994 VFR (4th Gen) - Starter engagement issues when warm starting


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I haven't been around here for a while. Currently searching the forums for clues, so please forgive my early posting when the answer may in fact be widely known 😃

 

I will be booking the bike in to get checked soon, seeking some of your valued thoughts before this happens.

  • Possible causes / known causes?
  • Potential for parts availability

 

I did chat with the mechanic and he indicated that OEM some parts were no longer available, while others still appeared to be. Things have been rather busy and I haven't made further enquiries. Mostly I just don't want her to be with the mechanic for an extended period when this Aussie weather is improving!

 

The symptoms:

  • When the bike is cold, she starts relatively easily, starter clutch engages fine
  • When warm/hot, starting is impossible. I get spin, partial engagement, spin, zippo
  • I can let her cool down for at least an hour, we are back in business

 

Thanks and any help greatly appreciated!

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That may be due to increased resistance somewhere in the circuit when warm or a weak battery.

 

If it were mine, before anything further I would have the battety load tested.  If at all suspect and / or particularly if over about 5 years old,   replace. 

Then check all battery cables for corrosion, loose or corroded connections from source to the starter. Trace the battery negative connection to frame, remove bolt and inspect.  Treating with Oxgard can be helpful. Check starter retaining bolts snug. Also inspect starter switch, associated wiring and starter relay.  Relays can also corrode internally and cause issues and the 30A fuse around it and its holder are notorious for problems.

While it could be wear in the starter motor / solenoid itself, the rest is basic maintenance and easy enough to DIY before paying a tech. Even the latter could possibly be solved by pulling the motor apart and having a look - but the battery, relay and main fuse are where I would start looking if it were mine.

Cheers

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Agree about the battery.  Have to eliminate that possibilty first.  Some bikes gotta spin up fast to engage the starter clutch.  I have a couple that are finicky like that.  Good battery, no problem.

 

And on the subject of spinning up fast, the very next thing I would do is remove the starter and clean it out.  The brush dust builds up over time and creates resistence especially when warm/hot.  I have "fixed" many bikes with just a can of electronics cleaner.  They usually don't even need new brushes.  Its one of the first things I do to any new-to-me bike.   Can make a big difference, seen it too many times.

 

Be sure to pay close attention and note the order and placement of the thrust washers on the starter.  Some like stick where they are and then release when you weren't looking.  

 

As a kid I had slot cars and the AFX manual said to clean the armatures with a pencil eraser when you did your maintenance and oiling.  I do it now on motorcycle starter armatures and it still works great.

 

Good luck!

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So when hot, starter still spins when pushing button?

Just that starter-clutch doesn't grab?

 

 

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You guys are absolutely awesome!

I will run through what you suggest. I have a spare battery I can charge up. I usually keep the bike on a trickle anyway, but the battery installed right now probably is a few years old.

 

@DannoXYZ Now I think of it, she doesn't go whizzz. More like ZZ-crank-crank-"disengage clunk"-err - stop

 

When I went for a ride yesterday there were moments of reluctance to begin cranking. So maybe you are all bang on the money and it is a matter of grunt.

I have to say that she is a shed queen and nowhere near an ocean. Absolutely as pristine as I can keep her. I do ride in all kinds of weather but not a lot. That means I don't rule out corrosion and such, but not what you might see in some other climates.

 

@Captain 80s Do you mean your basic de-oxit kind of stuff? Definitely not the lubricant type though...?

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If the starter is spinning, but the motor isn't, then the problem is the starter clutch and those are a known problem on these bikes. If the starter spins slowly with the starter clutch spinning the engine then the issue is electrical somewhere. Starter clutches also grab and spin and then grab again in which case they need replaced. Usually pretty noisy when they do that.

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39 minutes ago, jefferson said:

If the starter is spinning, but the motor isn't, then the problem is the starter clutch and those are a known problem on these bikes. If the starter spins slowly with the starter clutch spinning the engine then the issue is electrical somewhere. Starter clutches also grab and spin and then grab again in which case they need replaced. Usually pretty noisy when they do that.

 

It is a mix of the grab spin grab and I also noticed the odd struggle to crank, suggesting electrical. I hope it ain't both, but hey! Will start with a fresh battery, or at least lightly used and will get both fully charged and tested.

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There was a thread a while back about an '86 or or 87 that had a grenaded starter clutch - the center portion fractured in to several pieces.  IDK  if that part is available for 4th gens - but if that's it it's a fairly straightforward repair.  Once you have known good electrics, the rest should make itself evident. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Fresh battery installed. I hesitate to say slight improvement, so I won't. Still troublesome when warm. I'll do some careful checking of electrical and maybe remove the starter and see what I can see. I imagine if there is wear or damage I might see it. Will also try electrical cleaner as suggested.

 

Thanks again everyone!

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So now with a good battery, is the hot cranking slower than cold cranking, or about the same?

 

You should "service" the starter regardless, it will be needed and it's not hard.  Preventative maintenence at the very least.

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I had similar symptoms (with starter clutch) on a couple of my vfr years ago. Checked for worn/cracked components, etc. Even replaced parts(plunger springs, rollers) to no avail. Turned out the synthetic oil in them was apparently too “slippery”, changed to Dino diesel(Rotella 15-40) & problem vanished instantly. Could be a straw worth grasping if all else fails...

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And it may be worth noting that all synthetic oils aren't equal. If you're using a car oil, you want to get that out of there anyway. Mobil 1 4T works great in all of my bikes. i've sent it off to be tested and even at 8k, it has a lot of life left in it. 

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VTR1000F's are know to have starting problems when water enters the boot where the power cable is bolted to the starter. Corrosion, resistance and a lack of starter grunt result, even with a good battery.

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Cold and warm cranking are the same now. Only the warm "engage, disengage, engage, graunch, whizzz" remains. The graunch isn't like oh gosh that sounds nasty, just the kind of thing I hear in old cars notorious for starter solenoid problems. As I have mentioned, cold starting is seemingly no problem.

 

I doubt it is an oil problem either, so you can take your oil mutants elsewhere 😄 This bike has been running Castrol Power 1 4T 5W40 since birth. The bike was owned since new by my very fussy and highly trained motorcycle mechanic V4 nut friend. Covid, lockdowns/opportunity and other private reasons have prevented it from being in his more than capable hands.

 

I have opportunity to take to another great mechanic, would rather not. If it is potentially something I can take care of, I explore this first.

 

Regarding servicing the starter, I will look up what that entails. I am told, by a few sources that the mechanism of these starters is not exactly for the uninitiated. That would be me, so I hope to know with some inspection what things look like.

 

On a different positive note, I have discovered that when the fork seals were done, I didn't return the fork leg preload settings to where they were set. After a few rides (with time for ample cool down so as to allow starting again hahaha) it seems the slow speed (below 80kmh) "steer or not steer and then drop into a corner" problem is also on its way to fixed. Fancy that!

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You need a mechanic if you are scared of taking apart a starter and paying attention to how it was configured.  The least of your worries on a 30 year old carb V4.

 

Edit:  Harsh.   But true.

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Castrol Power 1 4T is a Full Synthetic oil.

 

I think an Oil Mutant might still lurk.  airway mentioned above a strikingly similar situation where changing oil type was the solution.

 

 

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7 hours ago, WestOfBen said:

I doubt it is an oil problem either, so you can take your oil mutants elsewhere 😄 This bike has been running Castrol Power 1 4T 5W40 since birth.

There's some confusion here!

 

Castrol Power 1 4T 10w-40 and 10w-30 are Part Synthetic.

 

Castrol Power 1 Racing 4T 5w-40 is Fully Synthetic.

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Check starter clutch for the telltale cracks.  It's easy enough to do.  (Not so easy to fix, given the unavailability of parts...)  Good luck.

 

Ciao,

 

JZH

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Castrol Power 1 Racing 4T 5W-40, correct. Since day one, I understand.

 

I have access to a service manual thanks to this forum many years ago. I am confident removing the starter and checking that.

 

I see the side cover needs to be removed to gain access to the starter clutch. Do I need to dump the oil before removing the cover? It only had an oil change say 6-12 months ago. I do changes every 12-18 months and per distance.

 

Captain, not harsh at all. I accept truths very well. I will have opportunity to chat to mechanic friend soon. This is definitely not something I want to "fix it or futz it".

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if you lean the right side of the bike against a wall or something suitable there's no need to drain the oil.

 

often, the only things required to fix a wonky starter clutch are 3 small, cheap springs, easily replaced.

 

be careful not to loose the shaft and fat washer from the idler gear assembly.

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Well, unless it looks like this:

 

1296425261_RC36Starterclutch--cracked-1.JPG.80cab8a24c2533fa2bdf01c74bf363ef.JPG

 

That's the only pic I could find quickly, but I've seen them with cracks in all three places.

 

Ciao,

 

JZH

 

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8 hours ago, squirrelman said:

if you lean the right side of the bike against a wall or something suitable there's no need to drain the oil.

 

often, the only things required to fix a wonky starter clutch are 3 small, cheap springs, easily replaced.

 

be careful not to loose the shaft and fat washer from the idler gear assembly.

 

SM, why do you always mix this up?  The starter clutch is on the right.  Your method first of all would be hard to work on the bike on that side (against a wall) and a shitte tonne of oil would come pouring out.  Having the bike on the side stand will suffice (leaning to the left).

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