Tightwad Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 CandyRedRC46 - Don't install HID high beams or your problem will get worse. HID bulbs consume less power (35w vs 55w) than regular bulbs. If the unit doesn't overcharge with the fan on then there is something to the theory that you need to be consuming more power to make it happy... For those with Compufires....try disconnecting the headlights and testing the voltage to see if anyone can replicate the overcharging Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer coderighter Posted October 10, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted October 10, 2011 Tightwads gave me an idea. Put your stock lights back, and measure the voltage. If the added load fixes your problem, then get 55w HIDs. Kind of a band aid.........but it might solve your problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer coderighter Posted October 13, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted October 13, 2011 CandyRedRC46 - Don't install HID high beams or your problem will get worse. HID bulbs consume less power (35w vs 55w) than regular bulbs. If the unit doesn't overcharge with the fan on then there is something to the theory that you need to be consuming more power to make it happy... For those with Compufires....try disconnecting the headlights and testing the voltage to see if anyone can replicate the overcharging I rode to work yesterday and when I got home I pulled the fuse for the headlights. I retested the voltages and they were within .1 volt of previous readings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted October 13, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted October 13, 2011 CandyRedRC46 - Don't install HID high beams or your problem will get worse. HID bulbs consume less power (35w vs 55w) than regular bulbs. If the unit doesn't overcharge with the fan on then there is something to the theory that you need to be consuming more power to make it happy... For those with Compufires....try disconnecting the headlights and testing the voltage to see if anyone can replicate the overcharging I rode to work yesterday and when I got home I pulled the fuse for the headlights. I retested the voltages and they were within .1 volt of previous readings. So you're saying that the R/R works the same with or without the headlight load? And you have standard bulbs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer coderighter Posted October 13, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted October 13, 2011 CandyRedRC46 - Don't install HID high beams or your problem will get worse. HID bulbs consume less power (35w vs 55w) than regular bulbs. If the unit doesn't overcharge with the fan on then there is something to the theory that you need to be consuming more power to make it happy... For those with Compufires....try disconnecting the headlights and testing the voltage to see if anyone can replicate the overcharging I rode to work yesterday and when I got home I pulled the fuse for the headlights. I retested the voltages and they were within .1 volt of previous readings. So you're saying that the R/R works the same with or without the headlight load? And you have standard bulbs? Yes, I get good reading regardless of the headlight load. I have 35 watt HID's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted October 13, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted October 13, 2011 Cool, good to hear. It's on the short list of things to buy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 I just bought a 3rd gen(1990), the regulator has fins on it and part #SH701-12. Is this stock; is it a shunt type; is it a ticking time bomb? Thanks, Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted November 7, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted November 7, 2011 My Compufire is scheduled to arrive today! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 can I ask where did you buy it and how much? jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted November 10, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted November 10, 2011 can I ask where did you buy it and how much? jeff First page, first post, first line... In other news, I figured out why they are shipped without the terminals for the stator side of the AC connector. The whole unit is wired with rather robust 10 gauge wire, however the stock stator (and probably Rick's) is wired with 14 gauge. Don't know what Harley's come with, but it could be 14 or 12 or who knows what. Sooooo, you're left to your own devices to pick the appropriate sized terminals to use for your wiring. Here's what I found at NAPA (as was suggested by previous VFRD members): The NAPA numbers for 14 gauge male terminals (they are used by General Motors, so are referred to as GM Terminals) NW 725170 (3 required) $0.59 each And the plugs to fit over the wire and seal up the excess space are: NW 725152 (3 required) $0.69 each Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted November 10, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted November 10, 2011 I just bought a 3rd gen(1990), the regulator has fins on it and part #SH701-12. Is this stock; is it a shunt type; is it a ticking time bomb? Thanks, Jeff No idea, thought someone else might have answered by now... Sound to me like stock or stock type aftermarket. No telling on how long it will last. Some do some don't. Take a good look at the connectors and wiring. Make sure no insulation is cracked and flaking off, or burned. Make sure the connectors are not burned or melted. If you can take them apart and they look good, pull the terminals out and tighten them up by squeezing them down a tad with pliers. You want the spades on the R/R to fit nice and tight. When they start to loosen is when they start to arc and melt and burn things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kaldek Posted November 10, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted November 10, 2011 I just bought a 3rd gen(1990), the regulator has fins on it and part #SH701-12. Is this stock; is it a shunt type; is it a ticking time bomb? Thanks, Jeff That is definitely a shunt regulator. The "SH" gives it away. Same as the "FH" regulators; they are also shunt-type but use MOSFET technology and can handle more amps and without cooking themselves. The Compu-Fire is the only switching regulator on the market. As for whether it's a ticking time bomb....who knows. Some bikes have issues, some don't. Regulators are fairly cheap so if you're concerned just buy a spare for when problems may occur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer mello dude Posted November 10, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted November 10, 2011 can I ask where did you buy it and how much? jeff First page, first post, first line... In other news, I figured out why they are shipped without the terminals for the stator side of the AC connector. The whole unit is wired with rather robust 10 gauge wire, however the stock stator (and probably Rick's) is wired with 14 gauge. Don't know what Harley's come with, but it could be 14 or 12 or who knows what. Sooooo, you're left to your own devices to pick the appropriate sized terminals to use for your wiring. Here's what I found at NAPA (as was suggested by previous VFRD members): The NAPA numbers for 14 gauge male terminals (they are used by General Motors, so are referred to as GM Terminals) NW 725170 (3 required) $0.59 each And the plugs to fit over the wire and seal up the excess space are: NW 725152 (3 required) $0.69 each I had several conversations with the tech guy from Compufire on hows and whys of the R/R design. And of course its designed as a Harley part. The connector provided for the stator side is intended to be a plug-in for the existing Harley gear. (--ooooohhh!) I also asked about the connector itself, why a 20amp connector was being used for a 40amp R/R. They didnt know except to say that the guy who designed it 9 years ago was a super sharp engineer. Unfortunately, he has left the company. I'm like, ok, no answer other than its been in production for 8 years. My install has been delayed by some other lifes distractions, but I did do an absurd amount of research on connnectors. I bought the NAPA parts and I decided to set aside the whole mess and included connector on the CF part because I just couldnt stand how wimpy the damn thing is. Then I ended up going with the Metri-Pack 280 connector set - rated at 30amps. (The parts are sitting on my bench.) Looking at the parts, in retrospect, if I was to do-over, I would just grab the Metri-Pack 630s instead - rated at 47amps. The 280s look ok, but could stand to be beefier. (I like over-kill) I bought the connectors from -- It was nice to be able to buy onesies of what I wanted. http://www.pcsconnec..._terminals.aspx and a good resource is - Waytek. Unfortunately you have to buy large quantities of anything to get it. http://www.nxtbook.c...catalog224/#/30 You will have to figure out how you are going to crimp the terminals, I ended up buying a tool. - I'll post up more when I get time to work on this stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted November 10, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted November 10, 2011 Hmmm, that's interesting... I hadn't considered the connectors would be only 20a rated. I do already have a crimping tool, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer JZH Posted November 10, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted November 10, 2011 My install has been delayed by some other lifes distractions, but I did do an absurd amount of research on connnectors. I bought the NAPA parts and I decided to set aside the whole mess and included connector on the CF part because I just couldnt stand how wimpy the damn thing is. Then I ended up going with the Metri-Pack 280 connector set - rated at 30amps. (The parts are sitting on my bench.) Looking at the parts, in retrospect, if I was to do-over, I would just grab the Metri-Pack 630s instead - rated at 47amps. The 280s look ok, but could stand to be beefier. (I like over-kill) I bought the connectors from -- It was nice to be able to buy onesies of what I wanted. http://www.pcsconnec..._terminals.aspx and a good resource is - Waytek. Unfortunately you have to buy large quantities of anything to get it. http://www.nxtbook.c...catalog224/#/30 You will have to figure out how you are going to crimp the terminals, I ended up buying a tool. - I'll post up more when I get time to work on this stuff. Another good source for Metri-Pack connectors is Mouser Electronics. I basically split my orders between Mouser and Waytek, depending on price and minimum quantity requirements. (And I, too, did the research and ended up with the 630s...) Note, however, that the 3-pole 630 Metri-Pack connector is even bigger than the CompuFire's Weather-Pack one! Ciao, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted November 16, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted November 16, 2011 Got my connectors in the mail today and put it all together in the SP1 when I got home from work! I shortened up the positive output wire and butted the fuse holder back onto the shorter wire. The rest was installed basically as CF intended, just with the 630 Metri-Pack in place of the original Weather-Pack. For all you 6th Gen'ers, the RC51 and 5th Gens mount the R/R on the left side of the tail. Less than a foot from the battery, so the 4 feet of wire isn't really necessary. (Slight exaggeration...) The ground wire I routed to the same bolt on the engine that the battery grounds to. Still too long, but not too bad. Just doubled it up in one section. Without riding it seems to be the same as the stock R/R. But I am on my second stator, and this was second hand used from a breaker online. So I'm hoping the new switching unit saves some life on the used stator. Also I'm wondering if the new R/R will lower the undertail temps, since it's supposed to operate cooler? By same I mean that the hardwired voltmeter (Lascar) plugged into the tag light plug reads 1 volt lower than battery voltage, and it tends to jump around a bit. Maybe there is a connection or wire hidden somewhere sucking that volt from the system and also causing the movement in the readout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rice Posted November 16, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted November 16, 2011 I would eliminate connectors wherever possible. It isn't much work - To solder the stator and RR wires together. I don't believe that adding more amp draw is the right solution to overcharging. My new stator in conjunction with the original RR puts out 14.75V under normal load at all RPM and drops to about 13.9V or thereabouts with highs and grip heaters switched on. Do the tightwad, solder your connections, double check all plugs for temperature damage and all should be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted November 17, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted November 17, 2011 So we are thinking the HID's ate contributing to the over-charging? Can we get a head count on who's got one and bike model? You can count me in on this one and it would explain alot of problems I have had. I have start checking my voltage at the battery after the bike has sat for a while. I have measured voltage at the battery of MORE than 14 Vdc. So now before I start the bike I turn on the ign. with the head light ON (high and low beams) and let the lites stay on for at least a minute. Then i turn off the key, switch off the high beams. Turn the key back on and start. This lets the charging system work. And so far I have not measured the high voltage at the battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Compufire Install http://www.keepandsh...34-pm-548k?da=y This describes the difference between a SHUNT and SERIES R/R. The measurements compare an FA012AA SHUNT and a Compufire SERIES R/R http://www.keepandsh...34-pm-837k?da=y http://www.keepandsh...20-pm-903k?da=y Thread with other SERIES R/R successes http://www.thegsreso...ad.php?t=161397 Posted on Monday, April 25, 2011 - 09:49 pm: Re'd this from Posplayr earlier: Richard, No worries. The Compufire SERIES R/R is about as efficient as is possible to be and in fact is even more efficient than an alternator. I'll summarize a little so you understand the categories. Most of our charging systems are what is know as Permanent Magnet generators, while some others are known as alternators. The main difference is that a PM generator uses magnets to puts out more and more power with RPM ; the only thing that limits it is a R/R or the max power available from the magnetics. The alternator does not have a permanent magnet, but rather controls an electromagnet. So as the RPM goes up the alternator reduces the current going to the electro magnet which there bu limits output. So this brings us to the PM generator and how to limit power from it. First variation is SHUNt v.s. SERIES. The SHUNT just shorts the windings when there is too much power. It is like dimming the lights in your room by shorting out a wall socket. The lights dim and without a fuse you would burn out the house wiring(analogy to the stator windings). The SERIES basically just opens and closes a light switch quickly. That causes the light to dim based on the duty cycle of how long it is on v.s. off. The SERIES is much better on the house wiring (the analogy of the stator winding) OK in Power Supply Design beside also having SERIES and SHUNT there is also something called Switching and Linear. The Linear regulators are also known typically called SERIES but it is really a completely different animal. A typical linear regulator is used for DC to DC drop down regulation. That means for example you take in 12-24V DC and you regulate it down to 5V. The SERIES regulator produces the 5V out by dropping voltage (and gertting hot at teh sametime) either 7V when 12V is coming in or 19V when 24V is coming in. This is very inefficient and only works when there is very little current being supplied. THIS IS NOT HOW THE COMPUFIRE WORKS. 5/12V is about 40% efficent and 5/25 is 20% effcient The other type of regulator is know as a Switcher. This is very similar in principle to the COMPUFIRE from an efficiency stand point but I would not call the COMPUFIRE a true switcher in the conventional sense. For a motorcycle forum you could call it a switcher, but it is not really one. The difference between a true switcher is that the switcher runs at a high frequency 5-10 Khz chopping the incoming DC to limit the output voltage as a function of the switch duty cycle. They usually chop at a rate independent of the input. The Chopping regulator also has a fairly significant energy storage device (capacitor/inductor) at the output to smooth the output voltage (as part of the switching regulator). Almost all of the SHUNT,FET and SERIES R/R's for the PM 3 phase on the motorcycles switch, but they switch synchronously with the 3 phase AC. For a 18 pole stator the frequency is RPM/10. So at 10K RPM you are a 1K hz maximum. This is well below what most true switches operate. If you look up DC to DC power supply, those are the classic Switches power supplies. Other than this speed difference, the Compufire SERIES R/R and the DC to DC switching regulator are similar as both are series designs. It is just a different application. Both operate in the 90-95% efficiency range. (power transfered vs total power consumed) in contrast to the SERIES Linear design. Hope that is clear; you can post the explanation if you like Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer mello dude Posted June 6, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted June 6, 2012 ^^^ -- Posplayr, you work at Compufire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Posplayr, I have read your post on the Compufire install as well as the links you have provided. Thanks. I have also read the previous discussions, theories and comparisons of Shunt vers. Series regulators. As an electronic technician all of career, an amateur radio operator and one of few people left that do component lever repair I want to commend you on your detail of testing the Compufire product and the documents you have prepared from your test. I purchased a Compufire series regulator after reading previous discussions back earlier in the year and have installed it on my 5th Generation VFR (1998). I do little riding during the summer months and have multiple bikes so I still have the VFR partially disassembled doing additional preventive maintenance and modifications getting ready for the fall weather and cooler more enjoyable riding conditions. My installation was done a little different than the others I have seen and I replaced a functional OEM R&R with a new Compufire. I used the wiring harness connectors from a previously replaced OEM R&R that I Sta-Kon crimped/spliced and soldered and then covered with heat shrink tubing. This allowed me to plug the new regulator into the existing harness without any major wiring modifications. Thankfully the wiring harness and connectors were not heat damaged and still in usable condition. I also built an aluminum stand-off bracket that positioned the heat sink fins horizontal on the Compufire like the OEM to take advantage of the air flow through the dovetail. This bracket design and OEM connectors will also allow me to replace with the OEM in the future if necessary. I am truly amazed at the difference in the heat dissipated by the Compufire series design over the OEM shunt type R&R. Sitting in my garage running at just above an idle and after only a couple on minutes the OEM was so hot that you could not hold your hand on it. After 10 minutes of the same the Compufire was warm but not hot. This whole project has been quite a learning experience and the whole time since I had lost the original R&R app. three years ago I had it in my mind it worked as a series pass regulator very much like the ones we use in telecommunication 12, 24 or 48VDC power supplies. I even went to LED tail light bulbs thinking I was saving energy when only adding more load that the shunt regulator had to dissipate. I understand the reason now for using shunt type regulators with PM rotors due to the high open circuit voltages. To prove this to myself and before installing the Compufire I bought a 35A three-phase bridge rectifier and temporarily wired it to the stator and using a Fluke 123 Scope Meter observed the voltage and it’s waveform. At 6k RPM the open circuit voltage exceeded 100 volts. Wow! A couple of weeks ago the question came to mind and it is one that I have not seen addressed in any of the discussions or post on the Compufire series regulators. With this extremely high open circuit voltage available what would happen to the fuel system computer and other equipment if this series pass regulator were to short? Do you know if Compufire in their design have addressed this? What are your thoughts on this scenario and do you see it leading to a catastrophic and costly event? Thanks, Lester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spud786 Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 The vfr needs stator output at all times, there is no situation where there's time to allow for switching off, especially if you run any electrical appliances at all. Anyway, you'll be a Good Guinea pig, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted August 2, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted August 2, 2012 Lester, Perhaps more than the actual R/R, the stock connectors are a big issue that cause problems. The terminals tend to loosen up over time and start arcing inside the plastic, eventually melting, and loss of connection. That's why people spend so much time looking for connectors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer mello dude Posted August 2, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted August 2, 2012 ^^^^^^ +1 ---- Either direct connect with solder or use a super heavy duty connector system like MetriPack 630s for the stator hook up. Source http://www.pcsconnec...tripack630.aspx Wonder what happened to that posplayr guy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer mello dude Posted August 2, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted August 2, 2012 While doing some more digging I ran across this interesting thread, check post #460 on R/R and Stator temperatures. Very cool... http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?160360-Ricks-Motorsports-Stator-Version-2-Thicker-next-step-wires&p=2845062#post2845062 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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