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DCT through the ages


BiKenG

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Does anyone have an accurate list of changes to the DCT system from 2010 to the last bikes (2016)?

 

I know 2012 brought in quite a few changes to both the F and the FD, but has DCT on the FD changed at all since then? I suspect there's been no hardware changes, but maybe some improvements in the software control? If so are these upgradable by a dealer?

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New DCT on the 16+ models with 3 Sports modes and the dealer told me that it 'learned' your riding style but I have no other details.

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40 minutes ago, Skids said:

New DCT on the 16+ models with 3 Sports modes and the dealer told me that it 'learned' your riding style but I have no other details.

 

I had read something like that on here, but I cannot find any reference to multiple Sport modes on the Honda UK web site, for the F model. It does however mention this as being new for 2016 on the CrossTourer. So I suspect this is a feature on the X and not the F. Anyone know anything different?

 

If that is the case, have there been any changes to the DCT on the F since 2012?

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3 hours ago, Ghostrider1127 said:

Main mods:

different ecu mapping

different material for both clutch plates

a revisited oil pump 

and few minor stuff 

 

 

P.s. nice naked vfr 1200 :wink:

 

When did those mods come in?

 

My eVo4 is a truly brilliant bike. Obviously I'm not trying to take credit for Honda's design excellence, but I just don't want a full fairing and semi sports riding position so It suits me perfectly and is something Honda could have done so easily. They just don't seem to 'get it' these days, so often simply missing the mark with off the wall ideas that actually no-one really wants.

 

I'm in the process of Phase 3 now with the eVo4, better tank side intakes, electronic cruise control, elimination of the throttle cables, wiring tidying and colour change but some health issues have rather delayed things.

 

One thing I am still puzzling over is the ABS system. I've removed the hydraulics so now I simply have manual control as I want, but the ABS ECU is still connected in order to interface to the (required) Wheel Speed Sensors. When you split the ABS module the pump motor stays with the hydraulic side as do the centre 'plungers' of each solenoid. Everything else (including the solenoid coils) stays with the electronics and is hence still on the bike. But the ABS light flashes an error and although it can obviously have no effect, I would like to sort this. But why the error?

 

There is only ONE electrical connection to the hydraulic side that I have removed and that's the power to the pump. It is possible that the ECU looks at this and can detect something wrong with the pump (i.e. it's missing). But I have a resistor in there so it will see something, yet still the error. Is it really able to be so precise and detect something up with the pump?

 

Otherwise, the solenoid coils are still connected so I doubt it can detect the missing 'plungers'. Or can it?

 

There's nothing else it can detect as there are no other connections. It has no way to monitor the actual hydraulic pressure unless it measures the power required by the pump. There's no pressure sensor anyway.

 

Just musings as you mentioned the bike. It runs fine with some tape over the light so I can't see it, but I'd like there to be no error so that I can use it as a basic warning system and if I do overbrake I will see the ABS light flashing, even if it cannot do anything about it. That's up to me - how I like it :-)

 

Anyway, any ABS experts here have any ideas, please let me know.

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Main dct mod are up to 2012 models , but also 2014 got some minor adjust on hydraulic sensors

 

Found last year a pictures of your bike on the net 

and to be honest it was the main reason why i decide to start to mod my VFR 1200 :blush:

 

 

I m gonna keep the ABS for the first step (may after gonna to reprogram the unit later)  , but also going to delete the combined brake system 

For delete the CBS i have only to possible way:

 

1: replace forks (before start all the conversion was look at öhlins for busa , as they are 50/55 aswel and lenght will be ok) as unluckily no 128 mm 6 pot calipers are available on the market for the F as brembo , isr , discacciati , beringer are swap unit for mt01/R1 130 mm 

 

2: keep the good nissin 6 pot and the original fork with öhlins internals (way i m doing , as i bought brand new forks and kyle racing catridges)

also the oem calipers got different diameter for pistons of left and right side , to no unbalance the brake power will replace them 

So i will asap order new goldwing 2018 front calipers

 

Interesting what you are telling about the ABS  , first of all which error code trow out?

what kind of resistors ?

 

May i will able to help you with the problem :wink:

 

 

 

 

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Glad to know I've encouraged someone to get their spanners out. :happy:

 

My problem with the ABS is 2 fold. First of all, I don't really want it. Been riding for 50 years and never had an instance when ABS would have helped. BUT, in the first year of riding an ABS equipped bike, I twice nearly ran into the back of the vehicle in front because the ABS decided the front wheel was slipping (just a pothole in fact) and so let the brakes off. I've never felt so utterly out of control on a motorcycle. I'm about to crash into he back of another vehicle because the automatic safety system has decided to NOT allow me to brake. No matter how hard I try and brake, nothing. Just a frightening brakeless roll towards the back of the vehicle in front until fortunately the ABS eventually let go its death grip on my brakes and allowed me to stop in time. Neither of those instances would have been remarkable in ANY way had ABS not been involved.

 

Also I have my doubts about the long term reliability. Just do some research on older cars with ABS and a surprising number are being driven with the warning light on, covered over or disconnected due to a malfunction that is simply too expensive to fix. All the while we are being told we should rely on someone else's programming logic and hardware reliability to save us from death. Yet in actuality the system should never have to actuate and then after years of no use whatsoever, we have to trust that it will leap into action and do the exact right thing when it is suddenly required. I don't know about anyone else, but my braking skills are way more reliable than any electronics. They don't hang, crash, need to be rebooted every once in a while and don't mind not being used for a long time. They just work and have done rather well for the last 50 years which is more than I can say for ANY electronic device I have ever had to use.

 

Oh and the other reason to remove it was no room for the modulator once the fairings were off. :biggrin:

 

Regarding the error code, I cannot now remember precisely, but IIRC it pointed to the pump as a problem. So it would appear that it can somehow detect that there isn't a fully functioning pump connected. I think I measured the pump's resistance and used a big resistor of the same value. But it's possible the pump is designed so that the (ABS) ECU can detect when at full pressure. I need to look at it some more, but always more pressing issues.

 

Now I come to think of it, before I fitted the resistor, it flashed an error immediately. But once the resistor was fitted, the system was happy until I rode off, then I got the error. So maybe seeing no pump at all immediately generates the error, but the correct resistance at first keeps it happy. As you ride off, maybe it tries to briefly run the pump to bring the pressure up and expects some feedback that it takes to mean the pump was ok and system now at full pressure. But mine of course doesn't change. In which case I need something a little more complicated than a simple resistor.

 

I'm pretty sure the VFR's calipers are 130mm same as the other 6 pots you mentioned which therefore could be used. The trouble is the piston sizes ended up not being a good match. Brembo do/did make a 130 caliper for the R1, but they cost about as much as the whole VFR itself.

 

When I was looking for Ohlins forks I was under the mistaken impression that the VFR used the common Honda size of 50/54. I now have no idea from where I got that wrong, but once I discovered the error it was too late so I just made some simple 0.5mm shim/collars which works perfectly well, although ultimately I'd like to eliminate that. So the Busa uses 50/55? Hmm, that could be interesting. I must check that out. I'm currently using Brembos for a Suzuki as they're just so much cheaper than getting them any other way. Don't know why but brand new they're about half the price as any other basically identical Brembo. I think Suzuki just do them at a great price.

 

If you want to use the VFR's OEM calipers, but eliminate the Fr-Rr link, you can drill the caliper to join the cylinders. Yes the left and right sizes will be unequal, but that's not actually a problem. As standard ALL of the VFR's braking is handled with unequal force either side. Front ends nowadays are so stiff it's not a problem. In fact many Ohlins (and others) put compression damping on one side and rebound on the other, so every movement of the forks is trying to twist the front end. And of course any bike with a single disk is as unequal as you could possibly get but it's simply not a problem. If that is the only factor putting you off using the original calipers, I wouldn't worry about it. If you specifically want different calipers then sure, you need to look at changing forks. I wanted Brembo 4 pot calipers, just because... No better than the Tokicos Honda use on FireBlade etc, but I just wanted the bling factor.

 

BTW, it appears the VFR forks are Kayaba and not Showa and the top cap is entirely different, thread etc from the Showas that Honda normally uses, so no swapsies there unfortunately.

 

Whenever trying to mod a Honda it becomes intensely irritating that Honda so often buck the popular trends and just go their own way. Why do they insist on this mechanically complex linked brake system. The latest Bosch ABS incorporates that if required without having to use special calipers with additional brake lines all over the bike. Honda do use a Bosch system, so why make life complicated. Just use the latest version and then they can use regular calipers at both ends. Oh no, got to do it their own way. I wouldn't mind if their way was better, but it's not. Bosch have had cornering ABS for years. If you must have ABS on the VFR, why didn't they make use of that on their supposedly flagship bike.

 

Anyway, those 6 pot calipers (at I'm sure 130mm spacing) make life difficult if you want to seriously mod a VFR1200F.

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I have every day spanners in my hand (since youth times) was a test driver since 2013 , now i m just working for Honda and HRC as technician

Cannot do all i want with the bikes here ....

Unluckily not possible modify the Oem caliper due law approval (but that´s not a problem with 18 goldwing units)

Had same problem with my cb1000r (vfr1200 front end aswel) than decide to delete the CBS and keep abs fitting 4 pot radial calipers/fork from a CB without CBS/abs

59ecfc8a84c1b_image(2).thumb.jpg.0b39f444c7eb65a11c6a63ca59cec110.jpg

 

 

 

 

  Here the 130 mm sumitomo/yamaha calipers on the 128 mm VFR fork.... 

ed61d745-27f0-4f76-9a17-3160441ee9a8.jpg

 

About ABS problem

 have you took out the fuse?

or Tried to disconnect the orange black cable on your cluster?

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11 hours ago, Ghostrider1127 said:

I have every day spanners in my hand (since youth times) was a test driver since 2013 , now i m just working for Honda and HRC as technician

Cannot do all i want with the bikes here ....

Unluckily not possible modify the Oem caliper due law approval (but that´s not a problem with 18 goldwing units)

Had same problem with my cb1000r (vfr1200 front end aswel) than decide to delete the CBS and keep abs fitting 4 pot radial calipers/fork from a CB without CBS/abs

...

  Here the 130 mm sumitomo/yamaha calipers on the 128 mm VFR fork.... 

...

About ABS problem

 have you took out the fuse?

or Tried to disconnect the orange black cable on your cluster?

 

You work for Honda? Ha. I used to work for Honda UK. Small world. That was quite a few years ago though. Back then we thought electronic ignition was a pretty neat idea. :biggrin:

 

I understand your problem being in Germany where you're not allowed to do anything really. Fortunately not quite that bad in the UK - yet. Can you eliminate the CBS just with different brake lines? I mean are you allowed to, I know it can be done technically, but what about legally?

 

Why would GL calipers be better? Do you really mean the forthcoming 2018 model? Looks to me like they have the same calipers as VFR1200F, sadly with the same multiple brake lines to the caliper.

 

Did you fit a VFR front end on the CB1000R? I know the fork dimensions (width, offset) are the same, but why swap?

 

I stand corrected on the caliper dimensions. I must have measured them approximately and assumed they were the standard 130mm. I'm amazed and appalled they are actually 128. Another example of Honda having to be different for no technical gain and just making life more complicated than it need be. It has to be deliberate.

 

Which fuse? There's one that powers the ABS electronics and another that powers the pump. I need the former as the ABS ECU has to interface the Wheel Speed Sensors to the main ECU (for speedo, TC etc) and if I remove the latter I think that generates an error itself. So seemed to me removing any fuses wasn't going to be a solution.

 

If I disconnect the orange/black wire, the ABS light comes on or flashes although cannot remember which now. It looks like the dash itself sees no connection from the ABS and so generates its own warning. In any case, that would prevent me from having the ABS act as an overbrake warning by flashing when it detects wheel slip. I know that's not necessary, but I just like the idea of it and want to figure out the solution. It must be possible. I just have to somehow make it think the pump is still there.

 

Of course there's always the possibility I've got it all wrong and it's some other error. I need to connect the pump and ride the bike to ensure no error. Once I've confirmed that, I can disconnect the pump and any error is then clearly related to that. It's really the next step in troubleshooting this, but I first need to get on and finish all the other mods I'm making so I can actually ride the bike.

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5 hours ago, BiKenG said:

 

I mean are you allowed to, I know it can be done technically, but what about legally?

 

 

 

My guess is is he won't be even allowed to fart in a forest w/o some type of approval given out by a governmental testing facillity....  :goofy:

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19 hours ago, Ghostrider1127 said:

1: replace forks (before start all the conversion was look at öhlins for busa , as they are 50/55 aswel and lenght will be ok)

 

Having started with the mistaken belief that the VFR used 50/54, I originally dismissed the Haysbusa forks, but in fact they look quite suitable - ish, but...

 

First of all they are a bit short at 730mm. That would drop the front end by at least 20mm which is not ideal.

 

Where would you mount the Wheel Speed Sensor? I guess if you have a pre-2012 bike you could just leave it off as the main ECU doesn't use that input, but for 2012-> bikes you have to have that signal or the ECU won't play ball at all. The actual 'Busa has it mounted below the caliper bracket but I'm not sure if the Ohlins provide this option. Did you figure this one out?

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No problem to delete the CBS system :wink: also already let write down on paper , so can use vfr1200f fork/calipers  or cb1000r No abs fork with 4 pot radial calipers

as i let wrote down both set up

But did not change the triple tree for both set up

 

 goldwing 2018 calipers are bit different from VFR units  ,already check them personally  :happy: , most important point for me , pistons diameter ...

 

If you take off the orange/black normally no Can issue if i remember well

will try also to trow out the abs power fuse 

but let´s see , soon i will have holidays and can better help you with that 

 about busa fork lenght you are right

Forgot as i`m using  "superbike" handlebar conversion kit 20-25 mm shorter fork legs are not a problem , with OEM clip ons  sure it´s different

also not really a problem to fix in another place the speedo/abs sensor 

 

older or newer bike are in need of both ABS rings , as i must keep it :wacko:

Like "DUTCHY" stated no fart without ABS :491:

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If anyone else wants regular handlebars on their VFR1200F, it's worth remembering that the CB1000R top yoke will fit straight on and I'm sure the ignition switch will line up, although I cannot confirm that as I've not actually tried it. The early ones used 7/8" (22mm) bars, but the later ones are for 1 1/8 (28mm) tapered bars so a good choice. Unfortunately for us Europeans, these parts are all at least twice the cost over here compared to even the regular pricing in the US. Always the same. :mad:

 

Just to clarify, the pre 2012 bikes had no signal from the front Wheel Speed Sensor to the main ECU. It is used by the ABS ECU, but only the rear WSS signal is passed on to the main ECU although the 2012-> bikes use that front WSS signal for Traction Control. So if you remove the ABS from a pre 2012 bike, you can eliminate the front ABS ring.

 

As far as I know, the VFR doesn't use CANBUS. The serial communication between the ECU and the dash is unique and proprietary to Honda. This carries the Oil Pressure, HISS, Gear Position and engine warning light signals (maybe something else also) and is a major problem when trying to modify the VFR1200 as it limits what gauges you can use - unless you can decode and interpret the serial communications protocol and interface to normal warning lights. Unfortunately Honda have been very reluctant to release this information (i.e. they WON'T) except to Ariel here in the UK who of course have a special relationship with Honda. Unsurprisingly, Ariel will not divulge this information either. If you (Ghostrider) have any information that would help with deciphering this serial comms code, I'd really like to know more.

 

I'm not sure how much of a problem the shorter forks would be. The OEM forks are 765mm long and I can achieve the same ride height with 755mm forks. The Ohlins 'Busa forks can be set at 740mm so the front would be 15mm lower which may not actually be a problem. Anyone tried lowering the front of their VFR1200F by this much? How did it feel?

 

So you've been looking at the new Wing? From what I see, a great update and improvement. Any news on a new F6C Valkyrie? I've had a couple in the past and I'd be very interested in a new one if they finally could have DCT.

 

Why do you want different piston diameters? I know the effects of this, but why do you need to change? What are trying to achieve? Are you using a different master cylinder?

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1 hour ago, Ghostrider1127 said:

Using brembo RCS 19x20

I have to ask, why? Nothing wrong with the OEM master cylinder. 

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10 hours ago, Ghostrider1127 said:

Not a fan of such old style master cylinder , not liking the feeling, not liking the lever travel 

:happy:

 

You realise that 'feeling' and lever travel are all down to piston diameters and lever lengths and nothing to do with having Brembo stamped on it somewhere? :biggrin:

 

That picture you posted of forks and wheel etc, is that the CB1000R with VFR1200 forks and brakes? Did you have to mount the WSS in front like that in order to match the ABS ring diameter? Was there not a different ring of suitable diameter you could have used? Or mount the VFR1200 ring on the CB wheels? Wrong number of slots?

 

How many slots in the CB ring? I used a 60 slot ring on my eVo4 and 'adjusted' the frequency back to VFR's 50 slot equivalent using a Speedo Healer. This works perfectly and the ECU is happy and TC works etc, but I still wonder if the increased frequency would maybe not have been a problem. I just don't know what the overall limits are of what the ECU can deal with and what is calibrated each time you start off. Do you have any idea how the system works?

 

What carbon wheels are? BST? Dymag? Other? On which bike? Do you like them? Do they make a big difference?

 

Interesting that you have a CB as well as your VFR. I have similar tastes. Here's my CB equivalent that I put together in 2012. Please excuse the Aprilia handlebar clamps. I'm currently working on replacing those with an actual CB1000R top clamp which will be more suitable.

 

 

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Let`s say , more than realized it´s also part of my job ,so you answer at yourself about the future choice of Gl1800 calipers (forgot to say they got 6 pads for 6 pistons)

Have carbon dymag wheels on my 1200 , 6,1 kg lighter than the oem

On the cb1000r i have other wheels

Picture was an old one during few tests in 2016 

From my experience : a ring with wrong slot numbers will be detected but also trow an error after first 4000/4500 meters 

possible to go with a 1-2% more or less  , otherwise orange warning will light on

Sure not all HondaS are the same 

 

nice Cbr1000rr!

 

Still have an Full HRC 2004 , an 2014 sp and a 2017 sp2

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, Ghostrider1127 said:

Let`s say , more than realized it´s also part of my job ,so you answer at yourself about the future choice of Gl1800 calipers (forgot to say they got 6 pads for 6 pistons)

Have carbon dymag wheels on my 1200 , 6,1 kg lighter than the oem

On the cb1000r i have other wheels

Picture was an old one during few tests in 2016 

From my experience : a ring with wrong slot numbers will be detected but also trow an error after first 4000/4500 meters 

possible to go with a 1-2% more or less  , otherwise orange warning will light on

Sure not all HondaS are the same 

 

nice Cbr1000rr!

 

Still have an Full HRC 2004 , an 2014 sp and a 2017 sp2

 

You like your FIreBlades then. Great bike, but I no longer enjoy the riding position, hence my 2012 conversion. I also love its lack of electronics and specifically chose the NON ABS version.

 

Interesting what you say about WSS frequency. I would think then that it has that overall 1-2% tolerance to allow for wear etc. and self-calibrates when you first start off, to allow for that, but outside that range it will throw an error. I guess that makes sense. So I need to keep my Speedo Healer then - unless I get my own ABS ring made at the right diameter to suit my forks and with the required 50 slots to keep the VFR's ECU happy. That's probably my final solution. Shame they cannot be cut from a rustless material.

 

How do you like the CF Dymags on your VFR. I have contemplated this myself, but they're not cheap and I have to say I do like the VFR's original wheels. In the Dymag's favour though, they also look great and I could have them made slightly differently to better suit my front end. Did you find they made a big difference in 'feel' of the bike?

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Well Blades are good road/racing mix , well abs-cbs version :pinocchio::491: ( i have 43 bikes at the moment ) btw my favorite are the old gixxer with Sacs engine  , got 12 of them 

Dymag ... Huge difference of handling , even pushing the bike out of the garage got an bicycle effect

 

 

 

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46 minutes ago, Ghostrider1127 said:

Well Blades are good road/racing mix , well abs-cbs version :pinocchio::491: ( i have 43 bikes at the moment ) btw my favorite are the old gixxer with Sacs engine  , got 12 of them...

 

Clearly, I picked the wrong profession!  :mellow:

 

Ciao,

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